jumping

[in2adventure]

Grady has been to numerous trainers, clinics, special training and anything else I can think of for his jumping issues. No one can seem to figure out his problem. Videos show that his rear is nor attached to his front He is either spot on or plowing through a course. Easy, hard, short sequences, long sequences, there is no pattern to his bar knocking. We are attending a 3 day Susan Salo clinic in NJ in Jan. A friend has suggested putting scrunchies on his hocks so he knows where his feet are because it looks like he has no clue of body awareness. I'll be trying it this week because I'm at whitts end with everything else.

 

Grady can run a course between 7 and 8 yps with bobbles and handler mistakes galore. I know speed can play a factor and my handling skills can, well, be improved but just can't figure out the bar thing. I got thanked by a judge at the end of a jumpers course for helping reset the bar height at our last trial

 

i would like to see his YPS someday with all bars up and his handler (me) actually on time with commands. Any suggestions for bar knocking before we attend to clinic in Jan. I'm getting so frustrated.

[Rave]

Do you have video you could post?

[gcv-border]

I have never been to a Susan Salo jump clinic, but I have heard rave reviews about them from several agility friends. You are lucky to go to one - and hopefully the training will help with jump coordination.

 

How old is your pup? Might he also grow out of his 'clumsyness' (for lack of a better word)? I know my dog had a very uncoordinated and unstable rear in relation to his front end as a younger dog. This is the opinion from from the rehab vet I have seen to deal with a couple of his injuries - which were related to lack of coordination. Strength-training exercises that targeted his rear end have also helped.

 

Speaking of exercises, you could try to teach your pup tricks that helps him know where his rear end is -- i.e. rear-end awareness exercises. Back-up and ladder work come to mind.

 

Have fun at the SS workshop,

Jovi

[in2adventure]

Sadly, most of the videos are from class and my instructor doesn't put them on a training disk. I should ask her for a couple. We are going to the SS clinic together so I hope she can add some insight to Susan when we get there.

 

He is a bit young, 2 1/2, but I have seen 2 y/o's at world champs that look the veterans. I've done ladder work, back up drills, sit up drills, pivoting on his front end, etc. Even with the drills, he is very hit and miss on accuracy. Some days he looks like a pro and others days he looks like it's his first time. This is what makes me think he's rear isn't attached to his brain. The muscle memory just isn't there.

 

I'll avoid the vet or physical therepy until I go to the Salo clinic and see what she has to offer. He can turn on a dime, slide to a down in an instant, walk logs, jump dead fall in the woods and all sorts of other random things.

 

I'm curious if the scrunchies on his hocks will make a difference. Sounds wierd, but my friend swears by it.

[ziggzmom]

 

I'll avoid the vet or physical therepy until I go to the Salo clinic and see what she has to offer. He can turn on a dime, slide to a down in an instant, walk logs, jump dead fall in the woods and all sorts of other random things.

 

 

Hi,

 

Will Susan be doing any private lessons? If you can get a private with her, do it! I have had a couple private lessons with her and it was so worth it!

 

Enjoy the seminar~

 

Janet

[sixx]

Seek had no rear end awareness for awhile. What I was taught and I think it helped, is to do the following:

 

1. Have dog at a sit or down stay, maybe 10 feet away from the jump.

2. Stand next to the jump.

3. Release dog

4. When he is about to go over the jump, tap his back feet. This can be really tricky, timing is everything.

 

When you tap his feet, he will tuck them up into his body, making him clear the bar. Repeat this several times. You can practice this everyday for a few minutes at a time. It sure helped my girl.

 

Good Luck!!

[in2adventure]

Seek had no rear end awareness for awhile. What I was taught and I think it helped, is to do the following:

 

1. Have dog at a sit or down stay, maybe 10 feet away from the jump.

2. Stand next to the jump.

3. Release dog

4. When he is about to go over the jump, tap his back feet. This can be really tricky, timing is everything.

 

When you tap his feet, he will tuck them up into his body, making him clear the bar. Repeat this several times. You can practice this everyday for a few minutes at a time. It sure helped my girl.

 

Good Luck!!

 

He is so fast, I don't know if I would have the right timing for that. I'll try it though. i wonder if that's the same thinking as the scrunchies on his feet. Making him aware that he has feet.

[gcv-border]

It sounds like you have had a lot of good advice and have tried many of the techniques that are generally used. In some ways, Grady sounds a bit like my Torque -- really fast, with episodes of brilliance, and then times when it seems like the brain is not engaged. (Torque usually jumps fine, but has other issues.) FWIW, I have had a couple of experienced people tell me to just be patient - that Torque will mature a little later and then will be amazing. I am hoping so - but in the meantime, he seems to be having fun.

 

I know it is really hard to see other dogs, that are younger than your dog, being more consistent. I don't know what else to say other than that all the training, etc. may click together one day. (at least that is what I am hoping for).

 

Jovi

[Root Beer]

The Susan Salo seminar should help you with this. If there is any way you could get hold of the first disk in her Foundation Jumping DVD set, you could try the Set Point exercise ahead of time.

[SS Cressa]

Hmmm. Are you sure its not something like a pinched nerve/disc? If its that random, thats very odd. Especially if some trials you are fine, and some you are knocking ALL the bars.

[SS Cressa]

Oh, and has he ever seen a dog chiro or massage? they often have alot of insight!

[gcv-border]

SSCressa -- excellent suggestions!! That avenue totally slipped my mind.

 

Yes, please investigate possible chronic injuries to Grady. BCs are so stoic that they often do not show pain.

 

Torque had a strained ileopsoas muscle (similar to a groin muscle) which was detected at about 18 months of age. I have no idea how long he had suffered with it. The only reason I discovered it was because he had a couple days of off-again/on-again limping a week before his first agility trial. He had never shown a problem prior to that time. Since I had heard that one does not show up to an agility trial with an injured dog, I brought him my vet. Through a series of events and several additional vets (too long a story for here), he was diagnosed with the strained ileopsoas muscle.

 

One of the ortho vets I visited for rehab voiced the opinion that she believed that agility dogs who are dropping bars may often have a strained ileopsoas muscle vs. bad jumping form. She believes that if a dog is dropping bars, the FIRST thing is to check the dog for an injury. Once the dog is declared free from injury, then worry about jumping form. Most of us agility competitors do it the opposite way.

 

Jovi

[Northof49]

He is a bit young, 2 1/2, but I have seen 2 y/o's at world champs that look the veterans. it.

 

Yeah, well don't make that comparison, as nine out of 10 of those dogs are no longer able to compete by the time they are 7 or 8 years old due to overtraining, and chronic injuries.

[Northof49]

The first thing I always rule out is structure and something physically wrong with the dog.

 

As well, from judging across Canada I see lots of dogs that are very high drive, and some that do not have a lot of respect for their bodies. These dogs either have brilliant runs or they crash and burn, and that's just the way the dog is, regardless of how much training is put into the dog.

 

My friend has a couple of dogs like that, even though they do have respect for their bodies. If they are high, but haven't gone "over the line" so to speak, they have good/brilliant runs, but if they "go over the line" their runs are a disaster. She usually can tell by the 5th or 6th obstacle, and will pull the dogs from that run because there is no sense in continuing. She's not pulling them off the course because she is mad at them, it's just that there is no sense continuing with the run. You're not doing the dog any favour.

[in2adventure]

I've had a couple people look at him walk, run and put hands on him. No one seems to find any physical issues. He's also had massage therapy. I still can't rule out something being wrong physically though. I know with Lucia, she won't weave if she's out of wack. She'll get pulled from runs for that and straight to the chiro for a fix. She has a pelvis that gets out of sorts.

 

Grady is VERY high drive and the crash and burn runs happen pretty often. I've pulled him from runs and cut classes short because he reaches threshold pretty quick. Unlike most people that rev up their pups at the start of a run, I'm playing zen games and only warming him up with stretching, spinning, etc. Warming up on a jump sends hime over the edge too fast.

 

It could be, like Nick has stated, he'll be my all or nothing dog. I have noticed in the ring that the high drive dogs are mostly this way. He really doesn't jump properly though. Dropping his front legs to soon or not picking up his back ones at all seem to be the biggest issues. Also, launching too soon. He has a hard time throwing in a collection stride when nessessary. This could be just inexperince though. His ability to turn in mid air over a jump to change direction amazes me. So he must have some kind of body awareness or this wouldn't be possible.

[Chantal]

I think the Susan Salo thing will help loads with this. And I'd recommend even youtubing some exercises to start him on, get the dvd if you can! It's all about muscle memory and jumping the dog with the handler out of the picture, so the dog learns how to jump on his own, teaching him striding and thinking.

 

It's like doing gymnastics with a horse when you're jumping you point the horse (dog) to the line and let them sort out how to do it. They get the reward for doing the exercise right. Start with the set point exercise right and get that dog accountable for his jumping!

[gcv-border]

I've had a couple people look at him walk, run and put hands on him. No one seems to find any physical issues. He's also had massage therapy. I still can't rule out something being wrong physically though. I know with Lucia, she won't weave if she's out of wack. She'll get pulled from runs for that and straight to the chiro for a fix. She has a pelvis that gets out of sorts.

 

Grady is VERY high drive and the crash and burn runs happen pretty often. I've pulled him from runs and cut classes short because he reaches threshold pretty quick. Unlike most people that rev up their pups at the start of a run, I'm playing zen games and only warming him up with stretching, spinning, etc. Warming up on a jump sends hime over the edge too fast.

 

It could be, like Nick has stated, he'll be my all or nothing dog. I have noticed in the ring that the high drive dogs are mostly this way. He really doesn't jump properly though. Dropping his front legs to soon or not picking up his back ones at all seem to be the biggest issues. Also, launching too soon. He has a hard time throwing in a collection stride when nessessary. This could be just inexperince though. His ability to turn in mid air over a jump to change direction amazes me. So he must have some kind of body awareness or this wouldn't be possible.

 

I have enjoyed this topic and it is somewhat comforting to know that other dogs exist that are like my dog (high drive, going "over the top", having a hard time collecting, etc.) I sort of live in a black hole for agility ( only a handful of trials within 2 hours and only a few trainers -- & most of them are training for backyard agility enthusiast). I like the idea of telling my dog the "game is over" (i.e. taking him off the course) if he goes "over the top". I didn't have a good strategy for dealing with this behavior before.

 

Not to beat this advice to death, but I still strongly suggest having Grady checked out by a certified rehab/ortho vet. My injury-prone dog (who has no respect for his body) has opened my eyes to the expertise of rehab/ortho vets in dealing with sports/working injuries. In my experience, the general vets do not have the expertise/training to determine an injury in my dog, whereas 3 different rehab vets concurred (independently) on his ileopsoas strain injury. Now I return to the rehab vet about 4 times a year for a once-over. She is able to determine if he has a muscle strain or a joint injury which is not picked up by a general vet, much less by me or any other agility enthusiasts. (We do not have the training.) It's a much more involved examination than just watching his gait or jumping stride (which she also does). I wish I didn't have to spend the time or money to deal with this, but it is what it is and I do not want my dog to run in pain (which he will do without any noticeable sign).

 

Off my soapbox now,

Jovi

[in2adventure]

It's good advice and I'll get him checked out for sure. Just in case. He also works until he drops and the thought of pain doesn't even have a fleeting moment in his brain. I would kill to have coworkers with just half his work ethic

 

If it helps any, he's been carried off a course more times than I can count because of over stimulation. He's a HIGH risk for injury for doing obsticals very incorrectly He once launched from the on side of an A-frame and landed about 4 feet beyond the off side This was do to lack of collection prior to hitting it. It's not the norm, but disasters happen occasionally. I politely thanked the judge as I carried off the course Unfortunately, I don't always pick up on his threshold signals prior to setting foot on the start line.

[SS Cressa]

If he's not lifting his rear end over jumps he may have poor rear extention. Which can be helped thru stretching, and may be related to injuries (or just tight muscles) in back/hips.

Around here, dogs who are fast/out of control: spin, bark, etc and KNICK bars (thus knocking) or take off wrong (still knocking) because they are in the wrong place to jump (but still tuck legs). They do not WIPE out jumps by crashing thru them.

If a dog had that poor body awareness, i'd have expected the dog to fall off the dog walk several times too- especially an over the top dog running insane on a course.

[in2adventure]

Hmmmm...by the sounds of everyone's suggestions, I'm leaning toward no body awarness. He's fallen off the dog walk a couple times, he does crash through the jumps or on them - not just ticking them. I'm going to start working harder on awarness exercises along with jumping exercises.

 

Any other input is welcome and I thank everyone for their time and advice. It's VERY helpfull.

[SecretBC]

Many Border Collies tend to run in full extension -- Causing many to jump flat and crash bars. I have a friend with a BC much like yours in that he either has very nice clean runs or you could have a picnic in the amount of time it takes the bar setters to reset the course when he's done.

 

I think it helps these dogs a lot to do nothing but controlled, collected exercises for a while. I really love Linda M's one-jump exercise where you pretty much stand there while the dog goes back and forth over the jump as you raise & lower the height. It gets them to pick themselves up nicely AND take notice of the bar, making for a nice tight, efficient jumper. After that you can do some "jumping into the wall" work to back the dog off a bit more if necessary. Box drills are great because the dog can't tend to build up steam and is constantly being asked to collect.

 

I would avoid long straight lines of jumps for a while. I would also vary the jump height of the jumps used in any course or exercise, to make him think about where he puts his legs. Set point grids would be great for him.

 

Out of curiosity, what height is he jumping (and how tall is he)? Do you find he knocks fewer bars if you jump higher or lower?

[sixx]

At least he doesn't walk under the bars, like Limbo...

 

That always amazes me when Seek decides to do that :blink:

[in2adventure]

At least he doesn't walk under the bars, like Limbo...

 

That always amazes me when Seek decides to do that :blink:

 

He used to do that too That faze didn't last too long, thankfully.

 

I tried the scrunchies on his hocks in class tonight. They worked amazingly well! He could concentrate on the handling part of the class and not worry about his body. His take offs and landings were so nice It's a video class and watching him actually have body control on the clips was so comforting. The only mistakes were mine or when he over stimulated.

 

I'll still be doing the jump sets and other training ideas I've been given because he obviously doesn't have the muscle memory yet, but at least he's on his way and the new training tool will help him figure things out without as much stress as before.