Agility dog registry...

[geonni banner]

How if the Agility Association or whatever it's called, opened a registry for Agility bred dogs of whatever breeding? Call them Agility Dogs, rather than Border Collies, BorderJacks, Whippets, whatever. They could start with titled Agility dogs and register their progeny provisionally - as in, you get full registration if you amass x number of points, titles, whatever. Then Agility people can go to these dogs for breeding stock - regardless of their genetic background - to get the size, shape, attitude or whatever that an Agility dog needs.

 

A separate registry for agility dogs would mean that your dog was not a Border Collie or any other breed but what the Association decided was a good "breed" name. The stock dog people would be happy because there would be less dilution of working ability for their dogs. I'm assuming that an Agility Dog, registered as such, would not be eligible for ABCA registry.

 

After all, that is the process that resulted in the working Border Collie, (the breeding choices, not the registry) and I don't see why it wouldn't work if your breeding goal was the quintessential Agility dog. It would be very interesting to see if a consistent physical type began to emerge.

 

Any thoughts?

[Root Beer]

How if the Agility Association or whatever it's called, opened a registry for Agility bred dogs of whatever breeding?

 

What is the Agility Association? I've never heard of it.

 

Call them Agility Dogs, rather than Border Collies, BorderJacks, Whippets, whatever. They could start with titled Agility dogs and register their progeny provisionally - as in, you get full registration if you amass x number of points, titles, whatever. Then Agility people can go to these dogs for breeding stock - regardless of their genetic background - to get the size, shape, attitude or whatever that an Agility dog needs.

 

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want an "Agility Dog" to do sports with. The breed that I love is the Border Collie.

 

My sport partners, my companions, my pets - they are Border Collies. I'm not going to switch to a different breed (ie. "Agility Dog") to make anyone else happy. And I'm not going to call my Border Collies by some other breed name to make anyone else happy.

 

A separate registry for agility dogs would mean that your dog was not a Border Collie or any other breed but what the Association decided was a good "breed" name. The stock dog people would be happy because there would be less dilution of working ability for their dogs. I'm assuming that an Agility Dog, registered as such, would not be eligible for ABCA registry.

 

So, to make stock dog people happy, you think I should get a different type of dog than what I actually prefer because I happen to want to do sports with the dog?

 

Honestly, that doesn't cut it for me. It might work for some people, but I wouldn't go for it.

 

It's really not for anyone else to say what type of dog I choose to own. And it's not really for anyone else to say that I should call my dog something else because I have chosen a certain discipline to pursue with that dog. That is not intended as an insult toward anyone (although I would bet money that some might take it as an insult! ) And I'm not insulted by this suggestion either (although I would bet money that some are going to think that I'm insulted). Just telling it like it is as the owner and handler of Border Collies who are also my sport partners.

 

Honestly, Geonni, I will be very surprised if you find anyone who is willing to agree to call their Border Collies by a different breed name to make anyone else happy. I'm not saying it's impossible. Just that I am doubtful.

[Brad]

Honestly, that doesn't cut it for me. It might work for some people, but I wouldn't go for it.

 

 

I'm with you on that!

[Ooky]

To be fair, I don't think this is aimed at those who just want to have a BC and do sports with it, as long as they rescue or buy from working-bred litters. I think this is for people who want specifically sport-bred border collies, borderjacks, etc.

 

Remember, because it always gets people upset, but the working collie proponents don't want to call a dog something other than a border collie because of what it does, but because of the intent with which it was bred.

 

While I think this idea is probably infeasible, I do wish something like this would happen, not only to protect working collies but because I do think this would be better than ACK conformation breeding, as far as purposes go.

[Root Beer]

I think this is for people who want specifically sport-bred border collies, borderjacks, etc.

 

Even if such a thing were possible, I'd be willing to wager that people who are looking for sport bred Border Collies would not be very likely to purchase an "Agility Dog", even if it were marketed as "a sport bred Border Collie with a different name." Even if the "Agility Association" (why have I never heard of this?) were somehow promoting these "Agility Dogs" as somehow superior to Border Collies.

 

Granted, I'm not in the market for a sport bred Border Collie, so I am speaking based totally on opinion.

[geonni banner]

"To be fair, I don't think this is aimed at those who just want to have a BC and do sports with it, as long as they rescue or buy from working-bred litters. I think this is for people who want specifically sport-bred border collies, borderjacks, etc."

Ooky

Thank you!

 

To Root Beer, et al.

 

Having an "Agility Dog" breed would not prevent people who want to compete with Border Collies from doing so. Nor would it compel someone who wants Border Collies as sport partners, companions, or pets to have anything else.

 

However, it might have the effect of helping to protect the single most important attribute of the breed - i.e. stock working ability - by creating a divergent purpose-bred breed. It would probably create a gene pool of dogs that (very likely) would have a lot of Border Collie characteristics. It would do so because Border Collies are very successful in Agility.

 

Many people who are serious competitors in the sport frequently have Border Collies because Border Collies do well, and win. Those people don't necessarily do Agility because they love Border Collies. For those people, a separate gene pool of dogs, with the desired Border Collie characteristics, plus desired characteristics of other breeds would be a big draw. Many people start out in Agility with a Chihuahua or a Basset Hound. But then they get hooked on the sport and see the Border Collies and Shetland Sheepdogs doing so well, so they say. "Well, Bassett Hounds are my first and favorite breed, and I'll always have a couple, but these Border Collies are doing all the winning, so I'm gonna get me a Border Collie and clean up at the competitions!

 

Those people often don't know or care that breeding Border Collies for anything but stock working ability is a bad thing. If nobody who breeds stock dogs will sell them a Border Collie to do Agility, then who should be surprised that they decide to breed Border Collie litters themselves? However, if there was an alternative to the Border Collie that had the speed, the biddability and the intelligence of the Border Collie, they would very likely jump right on it. What do they care if it can work stock? "Stock, Scmock," they say. "Can it wrap itself around five weave-poles at a time?"

 

If you love Border Collies, then you should compete with Border Collies. You have the sense and the concern for the breed to go to the appropriate place to get your pup - or you will get a Border Collie from a shelter or rescue and be happy and help the breed as a whole while you do it. But how many folks are as well-informed as you or have not the slightest interest in preserving the Border Collie as the best all-round stockdog in the world? Mostly they don't give a s**t.

 

You and most of the people here on the Boards that do Agility with their dogs are not the problem. You have Border Collies. You love 'em. You do Agility with them because you both enjoy it. Amen to that, sister. Go to it.

 

But consider what the "Agility Dog" breed might do to divert those folk who just want a winning Agility competition dog from screwing up the Border Collie gene pool.

 

As for the "Agility Association" - I just made that up. Other than the AKC, I don't know what Associations or clubs sponsor or put on Agility competitions. I figure there must be some Club, Organization or Association that does. It seems logical to me that they could be the ones (whatever they are called) to organize an "Agility Dog" registry. Heck, there are dog breeds all over the place created to do a particular task well. Why not let those people who want to build the perfect Agility dog get on with it? Just let's not have them destroy the Border Collie in the process.

[Root Beer]

Many people who are serious competitors in the sport frequently have Border Collies because Border Collies do well, and win. Those people don't necessarily do Agility because they love Border Collies. For those people, a separate gene pool of dogs, with the desired Border Collie characteristics, plus desired characteristics of other breeds would be a big draw.

 

There is really nothing to stop them from doing that now. All of the top handlers that run Border Collies seem to be able to find Border Collies that have the desired characteristics that they need to stay on top.

 

I doubt they would see a need to separate their Border Collies off into a different breed.

 

But consider what the "Agility Dog" breed might do to divert those folk who just want a winning Agility competition dog from screwing up the Border Collie gene pool.

 

I do see what you are saying. And on paper it works. I just don't think it would in real life. I think that many who want a winning Agility competition dog would still go for Border Collies - even if there were an "Agility Breed" of some sort that had been created from Border Collies. That "Breed" would have to be very much proven as somehow better than the Border Collie before the kind of people that you describe would go for those dogs instead of actual Border Collies. Does that make sense?

 

Without a demand for an alternate breed, breeders are not going to create a supply. Without a supply, there is no way to prove that a specific alternate breed is somehow better for Agility than actual Border Collies.

 

As for the "Agility Association" - I just made that up. Other than the AKC, I don't know what Associations or clubs sponsor or put on Agility competitions. I figure there must be some Club, Organization or Association that does. It seems logical to me that they could be the ones (whatever they are called) to organize an "Agility Dog" registry. Heck, there are dog breeds all over the place created to do a particular task well. Why not let those people who want to build the perfect Agility dog get on with it? Just let's not have them destroy the Border Collie in the process.

 

I see what you mean.

 

Other than AKC and UKC, the Agility venues in the US are not registries. Yes, we have to "register" our dogs with them to compete, but that "registration" is really just a number that we use to enter, track our qualifications, etc. It's not a breeding registry. The organizations really have their hands full enough running a competitive dog sport. I really don't see any of them being inclined to take on some kind of Agility breeding registry.

 

Even AKC and UKC don't have a specific "Agility" registry.

 

Really, I can think of a lot more problems than advantages to having such a "registry". Also, there would have to be some kind of demand for it from top competitors. I doubt that such a demand exists.

[geonni banner]

This is tangential, but I think it’s worth discussing.

 

Where did the BorderJack come from? Was it a “creation” of the sport of Flyball? (Sorry for my gross ignorance of both Agility and Flyball, but I’m hampered by two kinds of disability that pretty much preclude my getting involved in either, so I just haven’t been motivated to learn about them.)

 

So if the BorderJack is a “Flyball creation,” there must have been people sitting around saying something like, “Yeah, Border Collies are great at this sport – except for -------. So let’s cross a Border Collie with a Jack Russell Terrier and then the problem will go away.”

 

This was what I was thinking with the idea of creating an “Agility Dog” breed. Do Agility competitors ever sit around saying, “Yeah, Border Collies are great at this sport – except for -------. So why don’t we add some (fill in the blank breed) to counteract that?”

 

The whole idea of a purpose-bred dog is to get something that is consistently able to excel at something. Let’s say someone started a breeding program using, say a Border Collie stud and a couple of Border Terrier/ Whippet cross bitches, and came up with a type of dog that beat all comers on the Agility course. These dogs would be fast, agile, focused enough to hit all the contact points and stay still on the pause table, and slinky enough to hairpin through the weave poles. (And whatever else you need in the makeup of an agility dog.)

 

Would not competitors flock to obtain one of these? Would they not repeat these breedings until they fixed these qualities in a line of dogs? Maybe I’m giving them too much credit. There was a time in the not-so-distant past that the “great” dogs of many breeds were produced by large kennels owned by rich people who had the time and money to expend a lot of both on perfecting a line of dogs. Gun dogs, coursing dogs, etc. were developed this way. (Though not stock dogs – at least none that I’m aware of.) Those mega-breeders usually proved their gun dogs and game coursers in competition in the field. But those days are gone – for better or worse.

 

My sense is that Agility and Flyball are sports of the proletariat. The monied classes do not dominate even breed-ring competition. It usually takes lots of time and money to develop a breed of dogs – at least, a breed that can perform reliably. The exception, again, seems to be the stock dogs. It has taken centuries of time and necessity to mold those breeds. No outcross too strange to get the desired traits to get the job(s) done. Perhaps you are right. There is no one with the time, money or even motivation to perfect a breed that is tailored to the Agility course.

 

More’s the pity. For the Border Collie, I mean. If the super Agility dog were developed, it would considerably lessen one of the biggest threats to the retention of stock working ability in the Border Collie as a breed.

[Root Beer]

Where did the BorderJack come from? Was it a “creation” of the sport of Flyball? (Sorry for my gross ignorance of both Agility and Flyball, but I’m hampered by two kinds of disability that pretty much preclude my getting involved in either, so I just haven’t been motivated to learn about them.)

 

There is nothing wrong with not having a lot of understanding of Flyball of Agility. I guess we learn from asking questions.

 

So if the BorderJack is a “Flyball creation,” there must have been people sitting around saying something like, “Yeah, Border Collies are great at this sport – except for -------. So let’s cross a Border Collie with a Jack Russell Terrier and then the problem will go away.”

 

This was what I was thinking with the idea of creating an “Agility Dog” breed. Do Agility competitors ever sit around saying, “Yeah, Border Collies are great at this sport – except for -------. So why don’t we add some (fill in the blank breed) to counteract that?”

 

I guess some people do, but there are some very big differences between Agility and Flyball that would make trying to breed the "perfect" Agility dog much more difficult.

 

Someone else will have to talk about the reasons why breeding for Flyball is beneficial. I don't do Flyball and I am sure to get something wrong if I try to explain.

 

But when it comes to Agility, it's not nearly as simple. There isn't one specific advantage that makes a dog better than another. The sport is very complex, so what makes one dog "better" than another is complex. Breeding one "type" of dog that would be "best" is pretty much impossible since one person's Agility advantage may differ from another's.

 

Add to that, sometimes the strength and style of the handler determines which type of dog is going to run best for him or her.

 

The whole idea of a purpose-bred dog is to get something that is consistently able to excel at something. Let’s say someone started a breeding program using, say a Border Collie stud and a couple of Border Terrier/ Whippet cross bitches, and came up with a type of dog that beat all comers on the Agility course. These dogs would be fast, agile, focused enough to hit all the contact points and stay still on the pause table, and slinky enough to hairpin through the weave poles. (And whatever else you need in the makeup of an agility dog.)

 

Would not competitors flock to obtain one of these?

 

Maybe, if the top competitors were out there consistently tearing up the courses with them. But would the top competitors be enticed to try these dogs at all when they are having success with their Border Collies?

 

Maybe if new competitors came in with these "Agility Dogs" and started beating the Border Collies, top handlers would take note and start to run them. But it is not new handlers that would develop a breed in that way.

 

Can the Border Collie really be improved upon as an Agility dog by creating some kind of mix or derivative? The fact that there are people calling for "Anything But a Border Collie" classes leads me to think it would be difficult to create one distinct breed that would somehow be superior enough to win over the top handlers. (The ones that run Border Collies, of course)

 

And why bother to try when the Border Collie already exists?

 

Maybe people who want to beat the Border Collies in Agility might be motivated to create such a breed, but they would be unlikely to want Border Collie crosses, or some derivative of the Border Collie.

[Eileen Stein]

Geonni, I like this idea. I don't think it could spring into existence in its final form tomorrow, but over time I think it might be possible.

 

It can't be imposed from the outside. As Root Beer says, certainly no agility person is going to embrace it to please sheepdog people, and I know that's not what you're proposing. The key to whether it would work or not would be whether top agility competitors, who have name recognition, who breed dogs specifically for agility, and who make claims for their pups' superiority at agility, were interested in creating a registry.

 

If they were -- and there are certainly advantages to starting up a registry, since it's easy to do, confers prestige, and has potential for huge financial reward -- they wouldn't need to make a point to begin with about whether these were border collies, or some other already established breed, or a new breed. They would just be dogs bred to excel at agility, and would have a name (like Agility Dog) to denote their superiority at agility. So many people are advertising their dogs as agility stars and their pups as future agility stars, that they might well be interested in having this registration as a marketing tool -- a certification of what kind of dog they're breeding. If you bought a pup from [insert name of agility star breeder here], that dog would be a registered Agility Dog in addition to whatever other registrations it had. But over time, people focused on agility competition would more and more be inclined to look to registered Agility Dogs when they were buying pups, and less and less be inclined to care whether their dog was a registered something else (e.g., border collie). Their Agility Dog registration/designation would be what those buyers cared about, and it would become natural for people wanting to get into agility to look to registered Agility Dogs when buying a pup. And eventually Agility Dogs would become a breed of their own, and the go-to choice of those whose focus was the sport of agility. Most of those people would let their ABCA registration lapse, if they still had it, because what purpose would it serve? Those who are blind or hostile to the idea that border collies are dogs bred for working ability might consider their Agility Dogs to still be border collies, but they wouldn't care enough to make the claim -- the point would be that they've become something even better -- they're Agility Dogs!

 

IOW, as I see it, the registered Agility Dogs would over time go from being perceived as MORE than border collies (BC-plus) to being DIFFERENT from border collies. And that process, which would probably occur anyway eventually, would progress much faster than if the dogs had no other name around which their differentness could cohere.

 

I really think this is an idea that would benefit everyone -- agility folks and traditional border collie folks alike. And perhaps it will happen. I just don't know how to make it happen.

[SS Cressa]

seriously doubt top handler will go for mixes. Considering top handler as people going or trying out for world team. Mixed breeds aren't allowed. And AKC requires mixed breeds to be alter to compete. SO how would you prove and create a line of agility dogs if after the orginal breeds, if they had to be alter to compete? Unless they changed their rule?

 

I know there is suppose to be one handler/dog team from USDAA who is suppose to compete in 16 next year that is a border collie/staffie. They are awesome or suppose to be. Can't wait to compete against them with Cressa.

[MrSnappy]

This is ridiculous - it is as ridiculous for working dog people to pretend to know anything about sports, sport dogs and how to create them / what competitors are looking for as it is for sport people to claim to know what goes into creating and choosing working dogs.

 

Borderjacks, staffiejacks and other flyball purpose-bred dogs are created because flyball is an incredibly simplistic sport - run-jump, get ball, run-jump, all of it quickly. The borderjacks and the like are still fast and drivey, but smaller, because the height of the jumps is determined by the smallest dog on the team. The lower the jumps, the faster the dogs can go. Most small purebred dogs are not quite fast enough, so combining a fast dog with a small dog often nets you a small, fast dog. It's just that uncomplicated.

 

Agility folks want and need something a lot more complicated, which is why so many of them choose border collies (who tend to excel at everything). Lots and lots of them still choose working bred border collies for this purpose. Because the sport is hard on dogs, with the twisting and the landing etc. many of them are looking at structure first and sometimes they choose breeders who emphasize structure. Some of them have world team aspirations so they are selecting from dogs who are with a registry that will allow them to compete at worlds. Some of them choose dogs from breeders where other offspring have excelled at the sport because they don't understand anything beyond the basics - this is a border collie, its parents were good at agility, therefore I want a dog from this breeder so I can be good at agility too. They have no thought beyond this.

 

Sport people wouldn't be able to get working bred dogs and breed them and advertise the offspring as working bred dogs when they aren't really, if working people would stop selling them breedable dogs, and would stop letting them use their studs for breeding purposes. I cannot think of a single local working dog breeder who has not done both these things, often on more than one occasion. It's odd that working dog people lament the dilution of the working dog at the same time they are breeding their Open male to a flyball bitch because her pedigree is nice and they want the stud fee even when they know that dog and the puppies will never go on to work stock. It's too bad working dog people say that non-breeding registrations/agreements and the like are too "kennel club" and won't utilize them. I guess I don't understand why they eat cookies in bed and then complain about the crumbs being uncomfortable.

 

I don't know of any people who want an "agility dog" registered dog, whatever that would encompass. People are NOT breeding agility mixes trying to come up with a perfect agility dog. The vast majority of agility people would never even think to breed their dog and really, high volume or high profile sport breeders are a relatively small segment of the overall population of dogs. What it mainly amounts to is that for most people, the Preservation Of The Working Dog issue is not as important to them as it is to working dog people, which is sad from some perspectives, but totally understandable from many others. They don't think their choices affect anything because they are just one person doing agility with their dog and they don't understand, or care, about the bigger picture. This concept is not unique to the working dog / sport dog issue - it happens in every single breed, in a myriad of interesting ways. Milled dogs threaten the integrity of well bred dogs, BYBs overwhelm rescues; etc. etc. etc.

 

In my experience, I'll agree with Rootbeer - nobody is saying "border collies would be great for agility except that -". They just say "border collies are great for agility" because they generally are. They don't care if the dog will work because they don't want to work their dog. I don't see how yet another registry would accomplish anything at all, because it's tantamount to working dog people wanting to tell owners what they can and can't own and what they can or cannot call their dog. It's no less silly that sport border collie people insisting working dog people change the name of the border collie to "working dog" because border collies are such natural sport dogs. And no you do not need to explain to me how the working dog was developed and what defines the breed. I've seen this discussion a trillion times on this board alone and I get it. I even agree. But as someone who will never ever BUY a dog, sport or working, I enjoy being able to see this from a less personal perspective, and quite frankly, most people in the great big world don't care as much about this issue as the people here do. It's just so much discussion.

 

From my own unique rescue perspective, I've never gotten in a dog from a high profile "sport breeder" or even a kennel club breeder, but holy cow, have I gotten in dogs from working breeders, even Big Hats, way way too often. Maybe there's something else that needs to change that's more important than what you call your dog or where you register it.

 

RDM

[Root Beer]

I guess if someone actually took the time and effort to do this, it would be interesting to see the outcome. I'm not convinced that dogs that are somehow better at Agility than Border Collies would result, but I guess we would only know if someone actually tried it.

 

Honestly, though, I don't think that the people who would actually need to be instrumental in starting such a thing have any real motivation to do so. They already have dogs that they are winning with. Dogs that are eligible to compete in AKC and on the World Team. Having to have the dogs altered to compete in AKC would be a detriment to a breeding program. And not being allowed on the World Team would be a deterrent to top handlers. Both of those are big considerations since many of the top Agility people do both of those things.

[Eileen Stein]

This is ridiculous - it is as ridiculous for working dog people to pretend to know anything about sports, sport dogs and how to create them / what competitors are looking for as it is for sport people to claim to know what goes into creating and choosing working dogs.

 

I'm not pretending to know anything about sports, sport dogs and how to create them, and I don't see that geonni is either. I'm observing that sport people are marketing their border collie puppies as particularly desirable because they are bred for agility from dogs who excel at agility, and observing that there are apparently lots of people who want to buy from those successful agility breeders. I don't need to know what the qualities are that those people are breeding for. It's enough that THEY think they know what they are. I understand that it's natural for people getting into agility, or wanting to move up in agility, to look to breeders that excel at agility and are breeding for agility when they want to get a new dog. I believe that's a trend that's going to continue, and to grow, whether I like it or not. The idea of an agility registry seems like something that could benefit both the agility devotees who are going to breed for agility whatever others might wish, and the people who are going to buy from those agility breeders, and also benefit those of us who don't think dogs bred for agility belong in the border collie gene pool.

 

Certainly this will only work if a few top agility people see it as a good idea and go with it. If that were to happen, I think it would take off from there. The early registered Agility Dogs would likely be seen do better in agility than ordinary border collies, if only because they're being handled by top agility people and by others especially focused on agility. And possibly because there ARE things you can breed for that would make border collies better at agility, for all I know. That would make more and more people want them, and come to focus on them as a breed apart.

 

Try to set aside for a minute the question of who should bear the blame for this or that, and look at it just from the point of view of whether it would be beneficial to agility people and beneficial to the traditional border collie.

 

Honestly, though, I don't think that the people who would actually need to be instrumental in starting such a thing have any real motivation to do so. They already have dogs that they are winning with. Dogs that are eligible to compete in AKC and on the World Team. Having to have the dogs altered to compete in AKC would be a detriment to a breeding program. And not being allowed on the World Team would be a deterrent to top handlers. Both of those are big considerations since many of the top Agility people do both of those things.

 

At first these dogs would probably continue to be 100% Border Collie breeding as the AKC sees it (or 100% whippet, or whatever). They could continue to be registered intact with the AKC, which would satisfy World Team aspirants. Over time, if mixes came to seem desirable, and were bred, and kicked butt, Agility Dogs might cease to be purebred-on-paper Border Collies, but by that time either the World Trial might accept Agility Dogs or the AKC might want to register Agility Dogs. That's well down the road -- no agility bigwig would need to give up their aspirations to the World Team by setting up an Agility Registry now, registering their current dogs with it, and marketing their pups as registrable with it. Eventually, even without cross-breeding, we would arrive at "He's an Agility Dog, from border collie lines."

 

And people who believe in working-bred border collies, and want nothing to do with the Agility Dog registry, and want to continue getting dogs from working breeders and competing with them in agility, would still be welcome to do so.

[Maralynn]

I'm reading this thinking "what's the point?"

 

Sure it's an interesting theory, but going much further than that sounds unlikely and impractical. IMO, it makes much more sense proclaiming the virtues of a working bred dog and selling to to sport people on limited registration or a S/N contract. If you really believe that a good, working bred dog can excel at anything, then prove your point and shout it from the rooftops. Find examples of working bred dogs and point them out to people. I took my working bred dog and trained him for a search dog. And I know of other working bred BCs that are great search dogs. Kat's Dazzle is a working bred dog that she took and trained for agility plus a whole more - I'm blown away when I watch her videos. Tell everyone who will listen what went into creating a superior breed. Not everyone is going to listen and agree, but if you're out there consistently proving your product.

 

Sport folks sell their product and their reasoning behind it. Maybe working people need to be selling their product and their reasoning behind it a little better? If a working person sells to agility homes, every so often one of those homes will get bit by the herding bug. When this happens you expand your advocate base. Even when they don't get bit by the bug, they sure will respect and agree with your breeding practices when their pup turns out to be extremely versatile, trainable and can compete at a high level.

[Root Beer]

Certainly this will only work if a few top agility people see it as a good idea and go with it. If that were to happen, I think it would take off from there. The early registered Agility Dogs would likely be seen do better in agility than ordinary border collies, if only because they're being handled by top agility people and by others especially focused on agility.

 

Why don't you contact some top Agility handlers and suggest it? I'd love to hear what kind of responses you would get. They are generally friendly, down to earth people. Some of them might take the time to respond to you personally.

 

Seriously - I'm not being sarcastic.

 

And possibly because there ARE things you can breed for that would make border collies better at agility. That would make more and more people want them, and come to focus on them as a breed apart.

 

Honestly, I don't think it would work out that way. I'd be willing to wager that the breeders would have to go back to adding some working bred dogs into their breeding program to retain the qualities that make Border Collies good Agility dogs.

 

And if that were not an option (due to some rule by the "Agility Association"), people would go back to running Border Collies.

 

At first these dogs would probably continue to be 100% Border Collie breeding as the AKC sees it. They could continue to be registered intact with the AKC, which would satisfy World Team aspirants.

 

In order for that to happen, they must be registered with AKC as "Border Collie". That means they must be sold as "Border Collies".

 

I don't think a dog can be registered with AKC as one type of dog with one association and as something else with another. So, in order to create this separate breed with a different name, at some point, eligibility to compete with AKC intact would have to be given up.

 

Over time, if mixes came to seem desirable, and were bred, and kicked butt, Agility Dogs might cease to be purebred-on-paper Border Collies, but by that time either the World Trial might accept Agility Dogs or the AKC might want to register Agility Dogs.

 

I don't know anything about the breeds that the World Team accepts as true breeds. You can "register" a dog as an "Agility Dog" now with AKC. But it will be considered a mix and will have to be altered in order to compete. The chances of the AKC recognizing "Agility Dogs" as a separate breed (especially if their look is basically identical to the Border Collie) is slim. And, even if it did happen, it would be a long, long, long, long, long way down the road.

 

That's well down the road -- no agility bigwig would need to give up their aspirations to the World Team by setting up an Agility Registry now, registering their current dogs with it, and marketing their pups as registrable with it.

 

So, the top handler is running Border Collies (to remain eligible for the World Team, etc.), but is trying to market "Agility Dogs" to the general public.

 

I don't think it would fly.

[Ooky]

But when it comes to Agility, it's not nearly as simple. There isn't one specific advantage that makes a dog better than another. The sport is very complex, so what makes one dog "better" than another is complex. Breeding one "type" of dog that would be "best" is pretty much impossible since one person's Agility advantage may differ from another's.

 

Add to that, sometimes the strength and style of the handler determines which type of dog is going to run best for him or her.

 

Do you believe that the original purpose for which the breed was created, stockwork, is not incredibly nuanced and complex? Much more so that agility? Or that there are not handler preferences involved? The creation of the BC, kelpie, etc show me that you CAN successfully employ artificial selection to perfect animals for very, very complex tasks.

 

However, I'm still of the opinion that there's no need to breed for agility specifically, which I think is what you and some of the other sport people are saying. BCs do fantastic at it as is - from being bred for a different purpose.

 

Maybe, if the top competitors were out there consistently tearing up the courses with them. But would the top competitors be enticed to try these dogs at all when they are having success with their Border Collies?

 

Maybe if new competitors came in with these "Agility Dogs" and started beating the Border Collies, top handlers would take note and start to run them. But it is not new handlers that would develop a breed in that way.

 

...

 

And why bother to try when the Border Collie already exists?

 

Yes! But I guess why this idea is attractive to me, is that people ARE trying to do this anyway. Why else are they breeding BCs (and people buying from litters bred) specifically for sport, when that is inevitably going to change the breed they already have and do well with? Because either through ambition or hubris, ISTM, they WANT something different, and they want something with what they see as more guarantee to win. I also guess there may be widespread ignorance of the effects of selection in affecting phenotypes. I suppose a lot of people really do think you can breed BCs for something completely different and still have essentially the same dog, but even better.

 

If people really worked at it, they could make sporter collies who perhaps were better at agility or whatever sport, AND being able to breed out phenotypes such as Early Release Syndrome or whatever that was. If they also stopped just making F1 hybrid crosses, and bred to create a true-breeding borderjack, or true breeding mini-lurcher, or whatever, I'd say more power to 'em. Why are we just stuck with the XX number of breeds we've had since conformation got big? Those dogs could be cool.

 

I know this idea is infeasible, because of the indignant responses here. And, because even though there is clearly a demonstrated market for such breeding, like I said above, I think there are many barriers to understanding that would stop people from committing themselves to this course and admitting what they are doing - changing breeds, and making new breeds.

[geonni banner]

To RDM:

 

“This is ridiculous - it is as ridiculous for working dog people to pretend to know anything about sports, sport dogs and how to create them / what competitors are looking for as it is for sport people to claim to know what goes into creating and choosing working dogs.”

 

I said: “Sorry for my gross ignorance of both Agility and Flyball, but I’m hampered by two kinds of disability that pretty much preclude my getting involved in either, so I just haven’t been motivated to learn about them.”

 

Ok, so I guess this didn’t convince you that I was not “pretending to know anything about sports, sport dogs and how to create them.” Oh well…

 

”Borderjacks, staffiejacks and other flyball purpose-bred dogs are created because flyball is an incredibly simplistic sport - run-jump, get ball, run-jump, all of it quickly. The borderjacks and the like are still fast and drivey, but smaller, because the height of the jumps is determined by the smallest dog on the team. The lower the jumps, the faster the dogs can go. Most small purebred dogs are not quite fast enough, so combining a fast dog with a small dog often nets you a small, fast dog. It's just that uncomplicated.”

I said: “So if the BorderJack is a “Flyball creation,” there must have been people sitting around saying something like, “Yeah, Border Collies are great at this sport – except for -------. So let’s cross a Border Collie with a Jack Russell Terrier and then the problem will go away.”

 

I guess my colossal ignorance about sport dogs and their creation didn’t prevent me from making a fairly good guess…

 

”Agility folks want and need something a lot more complicated, which is why so many of them choose border collies (who tend to excel at everything). Lots and lots of them still choose working bred border collies for this purpose. Because the sport is hard on dogs, with the twisting and the landing etc. many of them are looking at structure first and sometimes they choose breeders who emphasize structure. Some of them have world team aspirations so they are selecting from dogs who are with a registry that will allow them to compete at worlds. Some of them choose dogs from breeders where other offspring have excelled at the sport because they don't understand anything beyond the basics - this is a border collie, its parents were good at agility, therefore I want a dog from this breeder so I can be good at agility too. They have no thought beyond this.”

 

I said: “What do they care if it can work stock? "Stock, Scmock," they say. "Can it wrap itself around five weave-poles at a time?"

 

and” But how many folks are as well-informed as you or have not the slightest interest in preserving the Border Collie as the best all-round stockdog in the world? Mostly they don't give a s**t.”

 

OK, I think I covered the fierce agility competitor who is disinterested in stock working ability…

 

”In my experience, I'll agree with Rootbeer - nobody is saying "border collies would be great for agility except that -".

 

Actually, what she said was: “I guess some people do, but there are some very big differences between Agility and Flyball that would make trying to breed the "perfect" Agility dog much more difficult.”

 

"From my own unique rescue perspective, I've never gotten in a dog from a high profile "sport breeder" or even a kennel club breeder, but holy cow, have I gotten in dogs from working breeders, even Big Hats, way way too often. Maybe there's something else that needs to change that's more important than what you call your dog or where you register it."

Umm… You got dogs from “even Big Hats, way, way too often.” (?) If you thought it was a bad thing why…?

[Ooky]

Try to set aside for a minute the question of who should bear the blame for this or that, and look at it just from the point of view of whether it would be beneficial to agility people and beneficial to the traditional border collie.

 

I also agree with what Mr. Snappy says about the importance of "cleaning our own house", although I don't have the experience to be able to vouch for how prevalent it is that working collie people stud out to agility breeders, etc. I also think this question is different in some ways from the mill/working breeder or BYB/working breeder argument, because we are talking about breeding thoughtfully, but for divergent purposes.

 

But I also think a thread like this has real value in the discussion of a new idea. How else do any of us learn, or any changes ever begin to happen?

[Root Beer]

Do you believe that the original purpose for which the breed was created, stockwork, is not incredibly nuanced and complex? Much more so that agility? Or that there are not handler preferences involved? The creation of the BC, kelpie, etc show me that you CAN successfully employ artificial selection to perfect animals for very, very complex tasks.

 

Of course that's true.

 

My comparison was to Flyball, not stockwork. RDM did a great job at explaining why it makes sense to breed for Flyball (from a Flyball standpoint). She actually does Flyball and Agility, so she would know.

 

However, I'm still of the opinion that there's no need to breed for agility specifically, which I think is what you and some of the other sport people are saying. BCs do fantastic at it as is - from being bred for a different purpose.

 

Yes, I'd say the same thing.

 

But I guess why this idea is attractive to me, is that people ARE trying to do this anyway. Why else are they breeding BCs (and people buying from litters bred) specifically for sport, when that is inevitably going to change the breed they already have and do well with? Because either through ambition or hubris, ISTM, they WANT something different, and they want something with what they see as more guarantee to win. I also guess there may be widespread ignorance of the effects of selection in affecting phenotypes. I suppose a lot of people really do think you can breed BCs for something completely different and still have essentially the same dog, but even better.

 

And therein lies the key. Whether it is possible or good or not, they are trying ti improve upon the Border Collie (for Agility purposes). They are not trying, nor interested in trying, to create a new breed.

 

Take the fact that working Border Collie folks would prefer that sport bred Border Collies become a different breed, and what motivation is there to create a new breed? Or even to rename a certain sector of the Border Collie population?

 

If people really worked at it, they could make sporter collies who perhaps were better at agility or whatever sport, AND being able to breed out phenotypes such as Early Release Syndrome or whatever that was.

 

What the heck is Early Release Syndrome. Sounds like a training issue to me.

 

Is it that the dog is releasing early due to stimulation levels? There is help for that.

 

If they also stopped just making F1 hybrid crosses, and bred to create a true-breeding borderjack, or true breeding mini-lurcher, or whatever, I'd say more power to 'em. Why are we just stuck with the XX number of breeds we've had since conformation got big? Those dogs could be cool.

 

I'm not against the creation of new breeds per se. If there were a demand for some kind of "tweaked" Border-Collie-called-Something-Else in the Agility world, I wouldn't have an objection (beyond the fact that there are so many dogs in shelters and such, but that's not the question here) any more than I object to people who prefer Shelties or Aussies or Goldens or whatever.

 

I just don't see any such demand. People who want Border Collies, for whatever reason, want Border Collies. They don't want something bred from a Border Collie that is called something else. Maybe with a lot of slick marketing, some people would go for something like that, but those who want the "real thing" won't go for that.

 

I know this idea is infeasible, because of the indignant responses here.

 

Do you think I'm indignant? I'm not.

 

I'm not going to buy, nor promote the creation of, some kind of Border Collie called Something Else to do Agility with, but I'm certainly not indignant!

[Eileen Stein]

Why don't you contact some top Agility handlers and suggest it? I'd love to hear what kind of responses you would get. They are generally friendly, down to earth people. Some of them might take the time to respond to you personally.

 

I think it needs a lot more thought before that point. And the suggestion certainly shouldn't come from me.

 

Honestly, I don't think it would work out that way. I'd be willing to wager that the breeders would have to go back to adding some working bred dogs into their breeding program to retain the qualities that make Border Collies good Agility dogs.

 

And if that were not an option (due to some rule by the "Agility Association"), people would go back to running Border Collies.

 

The "Agility Association" would be their association, so they could make whatever rules they wanted.

 

In order for that to happen, they must be registered with AKC as "Border Collie". That means they must be sold as "Border Collies".

 

Sure, to begin with. This is long-range thinking. That's no worse than the situation we have now.

 

I don't think a dog can be registered with AKC as one type of dog with one association and as something else with another. So, in order to create this separate breed with a different name, at some point, eligibility to compete with AKC intact would have to be given up.

 

I know of no AKC rule or policy that would prevent a dog from being registered as an Agility Dog with the Agility Association and a Border Collie with the AKC. That is all that would happen initially. And at the rate the AKC is trolling for new breeds, they might be willing to register this separate breed with a different name before eligibility to compete with AKC intact would have to be given up.

 

I don't know anything about the breeds that the World Team accepts as true breeds. You can "register" a dog as an "Agility Dog" now with AKC. But it will be considered a mix and will have to be altered in order to compete.

 

That's not the idea, at least as I see it.

 

The chances of the AKC recognizing "Agility Dogs" as a separate breed (especially if their look is basically identical to the Border Collie) is slim. And, even if it did happen, it would be a long, long, long, long, long way down the road.

 

I would have thought the same ten years ago. But at the rate AKC is now jettisoning its traditional values and ways of thinking in its desperate scramble for money, I'm not so sure. In any case, it would be faster than any current prospect of getting the sport dogs recognized as a different breed.

 

So, the top handler is running Border Collies (to remain eligible for the World Team, etc.), but is trying to market "Agility Dogs" to the general public.

 

Just two ways of looking at the same thing, to begin with. BC-plus. But over time, the perception changes. The biggest mistake we can make -- and we make it over and over again -- is to think things will stay the same as they are now. The situation with our breed is not static. It is changing, and we should try to nudge it toward changing in the most beneficial (or least harmful) way.

[rushdoggie]

I would say most 'sport' people (like 95%) and average people with jobs and kids etc who live in the suburbs and play agility or flyball as a hobby on the weekends. They want a dog they can live with most of the time who has the want and drive to play hard and fast on the weekends. They have no interest with creating a "super breed." Most of us are happy with a Q as opposed to winning all of the time. Its only the elite 5% who would care and I haven't seen it happen.

 

Only the AKC (or ACK as many of you humorously call it) required a dog be pedigreed to participate (or since they started allowing mixes neutered), so I think if anyone were interested in a 'better' agility dog it would have happened already. Theres an AKC world team but the USDAA has one as well and all the other organizations not affiliated with a kennel club (ala AKC and UKC) have been around much longer, so again if someone were interested in crossing dogs to get a better agility dog I think it would have happened.

 

The Borderjacks and Borderstaffies excel at flyball racing because the jump height for the team is based on the height of the smallest team member, so there's a need for short, fast dogs and many dogs small enough to be good height dogs didn't have the reach or the speed. As far as I know, these dogs are still F-1 crosses only.

[Maralynn]

What the heck is Early Release Syndrome. Sounds like a training issue to me.

 

I would tend to agree with that 110% but early takeoff syndrome is apparently genetic :D Yup, ya can't make that stuff up...

[Ooky]

What the heck is Early Release Syndrome. Sounds like a training issue to me.

 

Yeah, totally! I don't really know, but Jodi posted it in the other "I give up" thread, apparently from Mecklenberg. I guess they think it's genetic.

 

I'm not against the creation of new breeds per se. If there were a demand for some kind of "tweaked" Border-Collie-called-Something-Else in the Agility world, I wouldn't have an objection (beyond the fact that there are so many dogs in shelters and such, but that's not the question here) any more than I object to people who prefer Shelties or Aussies or Goldens or whatever.

 

I just don't see any such demand. People who want Border Collies, for whatever reason, want Border Collies. They don't want something bred from a Border Collie that is called something else. Maybe with a lot of slick marketing, some people would go for something like that, but those who want the "real thing" won't go for that.

 

I see where you're coming from, but I guess the problem is some people don't get that sport bred isn't the "real thing", in that the lines quickly become something else entirely.

 

Do you think I'm indignant? I'm not.

 

I'm not going to buy, nor promote the creation of, some kind of Border Collie called Something Else to do Agility with, but I'm certainly not indignant!

 

Touche! I don't think you or anyone else is personally indignant, but that the arguments against the "need" for something like this are. As in, heck no, we don't need this!! Maybe the problem with this thread is that the argument is occurring with sport people who don't want to buy from sport-bred litters in the first place, nor do any of you see a need for sport bred dogs in the first place. If all sport people were like you and Mr. Snappy (etc), and used rescue dogs or BCs from working breeders only, then really there WOULD be no reason for such an idea to be proposed.

[Root Beer]

And the suggestion certainly shouldn't come from me.

 

Why not?