Agility dog registry...

[Root Beer]

Yeah, totally! I don't really know, but Jodi posted it in the other "I give up" thread, apparently from Mecklenberg. I guess they think it's genetic.

 

It will be interesting to see what they find about that.

 

I wonder what kind of training/rehab they've done. I know Mecklenberg would be thorough, but this seems to be something new.

 

I see where you're coming from, but I guess the problem is some people don't get that sport bred isn't the "real thing", in that the lines quickly become something else entirely.

 

I'm not arguing that. I simply don't see this as a realistic solution. Hardly anyone would go for it.

 

Not to mention, it requires breeding a lot of dogs to develop the "breed" and it's not like we really need that right now.

 

Touche! I don't think you or anyone else is personally indignant, but that the arguments against the "need" for something like this are.

 

Got it.

 

As in, heck no, we don't need this!! Maybe the problem with this thread is that the argument is occurring with sport people who don't want to buy from sport-bred litters in the first place, nor do any of you see a need for sport bred dogs in the first place. If all sport people were like you and Mr. Snappy (etc), and used rescue dogs or BCs from working breeders only, then really there WOULD be no reason for such an idea to be proposed.

 

So, maybe the most practical answer is to keep plugging away at helping people to see the difference.

 

I know it is frustrating to say the same thing over and over and over and over and it seems like nobody really hears.

 

I just don't think this is something that would actually work. I don't think the demand would be there. (I say without indignance. Is indignance a word? If not, it should be.)

[Sue R]

To RDM:

Umm… You got dogs from “even Big Hats, way, way too often.” (?) If you thought it was a bad thing why…?

She is saying that she "gets dogs *in* from Big Hats way, way too often" - she is in Border Collie rescue, not buying in these dogs. The point she was making was that she is in a perspective where she does not apparently get dogs in rescue from sports backgrounds but certainly does from "working-bred" backgrounds, including Big Hats (and not just your everyday, working dog on a chain in the barn, BYB).

 

Being a Big Hat does not mean someone has a moral compass - there are some very Big Hats who apparently don't even have an idea what a moral compass is. As I believe RDM is pointing out is that there is a lot to "clean up" in the working dog (or so-called working dog) community.

 

So, I think you were just not cognizant of her meaning in this particular instance. An easy mistake to make.

[geonni banner]

She is saying that she "gets dogs *in* from Big Hats way, way too often" - she is in Border Collie rescue, not buying in these dogs. The point she was making was that she is in a perspective where she does not apparently get dogs in rescue from sports backgrounds but certainly does from "working-bred" backgrounds, including Big Hats (and not just your everyday, working dog on a chain in the barn, BYB).

 

Being a Big Hat does not mean someone has a moral compass - there are some very Big Hats who apparently don't even have an idea what a moral compass is. As I believe RDM is pointing out is that there is a lot to "clean up" in the working dog (or so-called working dog) community.

 

So, I think you were just not cognizant of her meaning in this particular instance. An easy mistake to make.

 

You're right! Thanks for sorting me on that one.

 

I'm sure this is all well-trodden ground for a good many people, but my experience (of things in general,) has shown me that often times the way to find the solution to a problem is to look at it from as many angles as possible. Sometimes you get a clear view of the answer. Sometimes you realize that the problem isn't even a problem. I'm all for dialog that keeps people thinking.

[Carlasl]

Umm… You got dogs from “even Big Hats, way, way too often.” (?) If you thought it was a bad thing why…?

 

geonni- she is talking about her rescue, not her personally buying dogs.

 

oops, I see Sue already cleared this one up....

[njnovice]

I don't think a dog can be registered with AKC as one type of dog with one association and as something else with another. So, in order to create this separate breed with a different name, at some point, eligibility to compete with AKC intact would have to be given up.

 

Some people have dual registered pit bulls as "American Pit Bull Terriers" with the UKC and "American Staffordshire Terriers" with the AKC. Some dogs have apparently done well in conformation under both registries.

[Root Beer]

Some people have dual registered pit bulls as "American Pit Bull Terriers" with the UKC and "American Staffordshire Terriers" with the AKC. Some dogs have apparently done well in conformation under both registries.

 

Interesting!

 

Does UKC recognize American Staffordshire Terriers, as well, as a breed distinct from American Pitt Bull Terriers? Or do they consider them to be the same breed of dog?

[MrSnappy]

I'm not really interested in addressing your points directly Geonni, in part because I've had my fill of eye roll emoticons and sarcasm on these boards for enough years. FTR, I'm not telling you how you should post - I'm just not going to indulge your obvious distaste for me by giving you more ammo.

 

I am interested in discussing what a silly idea an "agility dog" registry would be, because I did bother to look at it from all angles from a place of knowledge, not conjecture without the motivation to learn what I'm proposing. Since I've worked dogs, done flyball, do agility and have never and will never buy a dog, I get to learn from a remove that lots of other people don't. And what I've learned is very interesting, about how people choose their dogs. Sometimes it's amusing to me, sometimes it's depressing, but it's always interesting.

 

I see other folks have cleared up the issue of my rescue for me already, for which I thank them. The problem with trying hard discredit someone is that you forget to read what they wrote and it often causes unfortunate misunderstandings.

 

Eileen, I disagree that blame needs to put aside for the purposes of this discussion - this is a case of throwing stones at glass houses. The sport community gets their dogs from somewhere, because many (though not all) of the high profile and high volume sport breeders have dogs that are a piece of pedigree paper away from some nice working dogs. I don't think you can have the discussion about how to divide and conquer the breed war issue without asking yourself where the dogs are coming from in the first place, and how to stop infusing working dog blood into the sport dogs if the cross over and subsequent breeding away from working is offensive to you ('you' being the general working dog community 'you'). I guess I think that issue is just as, or more, important than musing on how to distance oneself from the products of one's decision making (this again being the general "one" and not aimed at you personally).

 

ETA - I just took at peek at the alleged "Early Take Off" Syndrome. I was not aware it had a name, but my experience with dogs who have this issue is that it's not a training issue. It does, at the very least, seem to be an inability on the part of the dog to correctly gauge when they should be taking off, and also on how to adjust their stride to the obstacles in front of them. I've seen dogs (mainly shelties) who can't seem to figure it out, and it no amount of one-jump or jump chute work seems to make an iota of difference. I have seen some retired for it, because they injure themselves on obstacles by crashing into them. I can't imagine how it would be *genetic* exactly, but genetics are not an area I am very familiar with. I always thought it was dogs who were just unable to multitask (ie run AND think about what they are doing at the same time, like an over-stimulation problem that training can't seem to touch. So perhaps in that way, it is genetic?) It definitely has a silly name, whatever the problem is.

RDM

[Root Beer]

I always thought it was dogs who were just unable to multitask (ie run AND think about what they are doing at the same time, like an over-stimulation problem that training can't seem to touch.

 

That was my line of thinking, as well.

 

That makes me wonder - if the stimulation levels could be lowered, would the dog still crash jumps? I'd be interested to know if anyone is seriously looking into it from that angle.

[Rave]

chalk up another for the "it's a silly idea and sport people would see no reason for it" group. I can imagine the looks I'd get for suggesting it to my agility friends - the same one that's on my face right now after reading this.

[Eileen Stein]

Eileen, I disagree that blame needs to put aside for the purposes of this discussion - this is a case of throwing stones at glass houses. The sport community gets their dogs from somewhere, because many (though not all) of the high profile and high volume sport breeders have dogs that are a piece of pedigree paper away from some nice working dogs. I don't think you can have the discussion about how to divide and conquer the breed war issue without asking yourself where the dogs are coming from in the first place, and how to stop infusing working dog blood into the sport dogs if the cross over and subsequent breeding away from working is offensive to you ('you' being the general working dog community 'you'). I guess I think that issue is just as, or more, important than musing on how to distance oneself from the products of one's decision making (this again being the general "one" and not aimed at you personally).

 

Well, if you're not able to discuss the idea without introducing the blame refrain, then you're not. It seems totally unproductive to me. If there's a result I hope to see, I'll try to figure out the best course of action I can to achieve it. I could talk about how shameful and disgusting puppy millers are all day, for example. I could introduce it into every conversation. But if I can't stop them from milling, then my efforts would be better spent trying to influence the demand side -- to try to educate people about good breeders and rescues and try to persuade potential buyers to get dogs from them instead. I could understand your lecturing geonni and me about working breeders who stud to sport bitches if you thought we were doing that. But obviously we're not, so what's the point? We are not "musing on how to distance [ourselves] from the products of [our] decision making," and saying that you're not referring to us personally makes no sense. We're the ones doing the musing, and we're not the ones making the decisions you deplore. The ones making the decisions you deplore are not doing the musing.

 

I would like to see dogs that are bred for sports out of the border collie gene pool. If there's a way of achieving that goal which appears more promising than slinging blame at "the working dog community" -- which by the way is no less heterogeneous, diverse in quality, and resistant to regulation than "the rescue community" -- then I'm interested in exploring it. Geonni's idea does not seem to me to be one that calls for throwing stones at anyone. But if you can't help yourself, then carry on.

[jdarling]

I guess, for me, this issue always swings me back the other way. Rather than trying to convince the agility/obedience/flyball/disc dog / whateverotherthingpeopledowiththesedogs to change the name of their breed to Sporter Collie, or the conformation crowd to call their breed Barbie Collies, I think looking at how we classify our own dogs might be a more productive angle. I know it's been talked about before, but just throwing it out there again for those who have never heard the theory ... tiered registration. I don't remember who first came up with it, but it gets consistently shot down due to the inability to "police" it or enforce it or (add other reasons here). Basically, break the ABCA registration into three (?) different tiers ...

 

Level I: Working dogs (confirmed by trial results or something ...)

Level II: Farm dogs (not sure how this would get confirmed and it's one of the areas where it gets real sticky because ranchers aren't going to have their dogs tested in order to register them, nor is the ABCA going to be able to afford to send "testers" out to the various ranches ... wishing I could think of a way around this whole thing...)

Level III: Everything else (puppymills, BYBs, Sporter Collies, etc.)

 

I'm tired and this is all a loose translation on a topic I have not thought about in a while, so I thought I would just throw it out there for discussion ...

 

Jodi

[geonni banner]

OK, so this is a last post on this thread for me. Not because I'm in a huff or have hurt feelings, but because I've tossed out an idea to see what those who know more about the situation than I do can make of it. I have been at some pains to make it clear that I don't have a huge amount of experience with Border Collies, and even less with the sports they engage in.

 

I am, however, moderately intelligent and pretty good at problem-solving, and always interested in having a go.

 

I will continue to follow the thread as it develops - if it develops any more. It's interesting to me, and for the most part folks who could have got their backs up, didn't. It was never my intent to throw stones, at glass houses or anything else. I think most people got that. Have at it guys!

[Root Beer]

OK, so this is a last post on this thread for me. Not because I'm in a huff or have hurt feelings, but because I've tossed out an idea to see what those who know more about the situation than I do can make of it.

 

The general consensus seems to be - "there's not a demand for an Agility registry" and "there is not a demand for a Border Collie split off breed in the dog sport world".

 

If anyone who competes in dog sports with Border Collies would really like to see a split off breed developed, or an Agility registry formed, I'd be interested in knowing it (for the sake of discussion). I can totally see why some of the stock dog folks might want something like this, but if there is not a demand within the dog sport world, I don't see how it would, or could, happen.

 

I have been at some pains to make it clear that I don't have a huge amount of experience with Border Collies, and even less with the sports they engage in.

 

I am, however, moderately intelligent and pretty good at problem-solving, and always interested in having a go.

 

Geonni, I'm glad that you are interested in learning more about sports. The best way would really be to go to some events and watch the competitors with their dogs (Agility, Rally, Obedience, Freestyle, Flyball, etc.). Watch what goes on in the ring and outside the ring. Talk to people (obviously not when they are running or preparing to run!) and ask where they got their dogs from and why. Some of the answers might surprise you. You can also ask the Border Collie folks why they run Border Collies. Again, some of the answers might surprise you. We don't all fit inside a neat little box of similar perspectives. Most dog sport folks are happy to talk about their dogs. Most of us are there for the sole purpose of having a great time with our dogs and accomplishing something with them.

 

You don't have to run an Agility dog to become acquainted with dog sports. What you read about sports on this board is only a snapshot of one section of the dog sport population.

 

But if you (the generic you) think this is something that would be beneficial to dog sports in some way, more familiarity with the actual people who are out there doing dog sports, and our motivations, is probably a good thing to have. If there is not a substantial market for a Border Collie offshoot among the puppy purchasers, developing a new breed isn't going to go very far.

[njnovice]

Interesting!

 

Does UKC recognize American Staffordshire Terriers, as well, as a breed distinct from American Pitt Bull Terriers? Or do they consider them to be the same breed of dog?

 

The UKC considers them to be the same breed. They don't recognize AmStaffs as a separate breed. I worked at a place that would accept pit bull mixes, AmStaff, Staffordshire terriers, but not American Pit Bull Terriers for boarding. I thought it was the most ridiculous policy ever, as the only way they would know would be if somebody was like, "Hey, by the way...this dog is registered with..." All the bully-type breeds had to do a trial stay there anyway before boarding.

 

Personally, I just call my pit bull looking dog a pit bull. She was a rescue, so I don't know what her true makeup is. NYACC called her a pit bull/GSD mix (I do not see that at all). Somebody I know insists she's part boxer, because she's so sweet and calm, and a couple people think she's part American Bulldog, because she has a bit of an underbite. If the genetic testing wasn't so expensive, I'd probably get it done just out of curiosity. All I know is that she's an awesome dog. In May, I'm most likely taking her to get therapy dog certified, and her favorite place to go is a local coffee shop that is 100% dog friendly, as in your dogs are welcome inside and they keep a jar of biscuits on the counter.

 

And one thing I learned is, it wasn't the big scary dogs that you usually had to watch out for, it was the standard poodles and the labs that were entirely too eager to take your hand off in their quest to get the food bowl before you put it down. The only dog that ever went psycho on me was a chihaua.

[geonni banner]

"If the genetic testing wasn't so expensive, I'd probably get it done just out of curiosity."

njnovice

 

Don't waste your money! This dog came back as Mastiff/ Bulldog/GSP.

 

 

I don't know what she is - but is isn't that!

[njnovice]

"If the genetic testing wasn't so expensive, I'd probably get it done just out of curiosity."

njnovice

 

Don't waste your money! This dog came back as Mastiff/ Bulldog/GSP.

 

 

I don't know what she is - but is isn't that!

 

Yeah, that dog is definitely a Heinz 57 of some sort, but she's definitely not that.

 

This is Sinead...