Bea chases cars!!

[flyer]

So my little Bea is presenting lots of challenges for me. Last week she showed interest in cars. This week she is lunging on the leash.

 

Best way to handle this?

[ejano]

So my little Bea is presenting lots of challenges for me. Last week she showed interest in cars. This week she is lunging on the leash.

 

Best way to handle this?

 

The next time she tries it, give her the "come to Jesus" talk to which Julie recommends for the most serious offenses. Right there on the spot, don't care whose watching. Let them take it up with you later; you are trying to save your dog's life.

 

Work on more control with her through basic obedience as well. Give her more fun things to chase after, in a safe fenced in area where she can't get at a car.

 

When you think you've got her in a little better position, work on slowly desensitizing her, to all wheels....even vacuum cleaner wheels may attract her, especially if the vacuum has a light on the front (Why they put a light on the vacuum cleaner, I don't know. Raise your hand if you vacuum in the dark?)

 

Liz

[Jedismom]

Well...I went through this last summer with Jedi. Mind you, I had my crazy boy for about a year and a half and he never once glanced at a car. All of a sudden, he decides the RV coming down the road needs to be put in its place. So I did a medium level talking to and kept going, thinking it would take care of the situation because it usually does. Nope...he decided the truck coming down the road next was also very exciting. That's when he got the "come to Jesus" talk. That did it. Went back to not paying attention any more.

 

However ...even though he doesn't act on it anymore, I do believe the thought occasionally still crosses his mind when an especially noisy vehicle goes by. I believe it's because in general, walking with me can be boring. Jedi's mind is always working, he's very high intensity, he gets easily bored. So lately I've taken to walking him by himself without the other dogs. I intersperse our walks with games he likes with balls. I have put a back pack on him. These 3 things have gone a long way to keeping him more focused on me, and interested in staying with me on our walks. I had to get over the "he must walk at a heel next to me or I'm a failure" thing. It wasn't working for us. We were not enjoying anything. Now we have fun together, and we both get the exercise we need. Just my 2 cents.

 

I am so bored, can we go now?

[Northof49]

Take her to a place where you can be away from the traffic, but where there is a relataively good number of cars going by. If she does not react to wanting to chase cars say 50 feet from the road just stand there and every time a car starts to go by you get her attention and reward her with a yummy treat. You want to instill in her an alternate behaviour - look to mom for a treat instead of wanting to chase them. Work her closer and closer to the street.

 

With the foster dogs that I get in that want to chase cars this is how I work it, and then after a couple of days of this I take them on their normal walk where there is some traffic and everytime a car goes by I get the dog to sit and look at me. After a few weeks there is just the odd treat reward for ignoring the vehicles. I have worked through this with my dogs deciding bikes and skateboards are to be chased as well as young puppies - and it is always successful.

 

Teaching a dog an alternate positive behavour that can be rewarded is better than just trying to punish the behaviour into extinction.

[Ooky]

Odin did the same thing, also with an RV, but I think he was more like 1 yr old the first time he tried it? ONCE. We ensured it was only once with the "come to Jesus" method. And people DID look at me like I was the cruelest puppy owner in the world when I scruffed him and issued a very sharp verbal correction in his face, but whatever. It was one of those instances where my timing must have been right on for the correction, because honestly, that once was all it took to completely extinguish it - not one problem since and we live and play in areas with lots of cars. Cars and pets/kids are one of my nightmares, so I wasn't taking any chances.

 

Another thing we did, with a combo of some mild corrections, lots of rewards, and repititon, was install boundary training on him for roads. He may be chasing a ball full out, but when he hits the curb or road-non-road boundary he lays down automatically and waits for my release, or for me to go retrieve the ball or whatever. I love that!

[flyer]

Could someone describe a "Come to Jesus" moment to me? Not being funny. Really have no idea what this would look like, but do want to know what this would be for a dog.

 

Northof49 that is how I trained Colt not to chase bikes and joggers so I did in fact start this with Bea last night. I guess because the stakes are so much higher here I was inclined to get in her face because I was scared for her, but frankly, I think I suck at that. She is just so small, a baby still and well, I rarely yell at my kids. The few times I have though they said it was pretty impressive.

 

I'm no milk toast, my DH will assure you of that, but she's just so young. I am worried it will throw off the trust we have going. Bea was a very assertive, growly, my way or the highway pup when I first got her and this has shifted so much through me being firm and clear, but never aggressive with her.

[juliepoudrier]

Teaching a dog an alternate positive behavour that can be rewarded is better than just trying to punish the behaviour into extinction.

Assuming the dog doesn't make a mistake in the meantime and get killed for it. I'm sure you think your way is the best way, but as I've said before on this forum, when a life is at stake, I don't waste time with feel-good methods. If you are uncomfortable with a "come to Jesus" approach, that's fine, but to state that one way is *better* than another is silly. You might like your method better, but that doesn't mean it's a better method. And of course, we've had the discussion on this forum numerous times about the desirability of teaching alternate behaviors vs. saying "don't do that" and letting the dog make choices about what it can do, so I won't go into that here.

 

Flyer,

For me, a "come to Jesus" meeting simply means getting in the dog's face and letting it know in no uncertain terms that I am one unhappy human. Occasionally I may grab the "cheek hairs" (the scruff-like skin on the sides of the face), but despite the use of the term punishment by others, I certainly don't beat the dog and generally don't even have to lay a hand on the dog. All I want to do is let the dog know that I am very, very unhappy. You don't have to scream, you just have to speak with harsh, growling tone. (and most of the dogs I might have here have probably already been raised--if adults--to understand a voice correction, so it's not as if a much more forceful voice correction is totally alien to them). Of course, if you are uncomfortable doing this, then it won't likely be effective and you should go ahead with whatever method--treats, alternative behaviors, whatever--that you can do effectively and consistently.

 

I don't think that you will blow the trust of your dog if you do use a "come to Jesus" method. Dogs are like children and they are most comfortable when they know their boundaries. My method makes it clear to them in no uncertain terms what those boundaries are. It's also not something that is done repetitively; I don't think I've ever had to use the method more than once, twice tops, for any particular dog. Granted, usually for me I'm using this method to prevent a dog (young or old) chasing and perhaps killing the small animals who live here on the farm with us (the lives that are at stake) and the end result needs to be that the dog isn't interested in bothering the small animals even when I am nowhere in sight. This is one reason why I don't use the "alternate behavior" method. It's not as if I walk through the yard with my dog on a leash and when it notices a small chick run by I want it to sit and look at me instead of giving chase. I don't want the dog to offer any alternative behavior other than choosing not to chase/harass small animals. I need for the dog to understand that certain things are completely off limits all the time, with or without the presence of a human, with or without the presence of other dogs, and no matter how tempting that small animal might be.

 

If Bea will always be on leash with you when vehicles are around, then you can probably take the time to teach an alternate behavior in response to a passing vehicle. I wouldn't dream of claiming that my method is better than any other for you; I just know what works for me.

 

J.

[Guest echoica]

I don't really have anything to add but I must say the mention of this "Come to Jesus" method made me laugh out loud!

[Ooky]

My "come to Jesus" at its very harshest is pretty much as I already described - I scruff Odin, bring my face to be in front of his, and in a sharp growly tone tell him "HEY!" I might shake his scruff for emphasis as I'm saying it, and have a little finish of "I mean it" or some thing (I did both in this instance). Swiftness and timing are definitely key in this approach - not something I can always get. If more than a second goes by (or even half a second), I feel like the moment has passed. Now, if he was reactive/fearful, or I thought there was a chance in the world he might bite me for this, I wouldn't do it. But he's not - he's a normal, sturdy, resilient dog with respect for me enough I trust him to take such a correction without lashing back.

 

I am with Julie on this one. I don't know why the alternate behavior/desensitization approach would be better, especially when it is not already an ingrained habit and the pup or dog is deciding to try something out for the first time. Not that I'm against the alternate behavior approach - note I used that to teach an "automatic" boundary respect for entering roads. But I saw these things as related but separate. For the attempted RV-attack/"herding" I considered this 1) an experimental behavior that was potentially very life threatening, and 2) if it didn't end SOON, it would be very bad. He lunged at the RV after never even looking at a motor vehicle this way before - what if he had pulled the leash out of my hand? Or his collar or leash clasp had breoken in that moment? I was not willing to risk that again if I could help it. Also, we are around cars/trucks/light rail trains/etc. so much that if I was going to use N of 49's method, I wouldn't be able to take him safely on walks until we had put in months of training in very specifically safe places.

 

For going into roads, well, not every time you go into a road is a dangerous event - it is only potentially dangerous based on the road and the circumstances. We have to cross roads all the time. We might walk down roads that are blocked off from traffic. Sometimes in a calm neighborhood street it is ok for him to go across the street to meet a friend or whatever. The point is, I wanted him to reorient to me and proceed from there before ever entering a street, which is in itself not necessarily dangerous the way lunging at a moving car IS. So we worked on that for months, in a variety of different places so he even knows it doesn't matter if it is a dirt road or a parking lot or a busy street. No matter what distractions there are, no entering that without laying down and waiting for further instructions from a handler.

 

As for whether it will hurt your relationship, I think probably any method that makes you uncomfortable isn't going to be good. But as food for thought, DH yells at/corrects Odin a lot, and Odin takes a lot of it with a sort of nonchalant attitude. I am more about love and snuggles and positive reinforcement for everything he does right, and also spend more time training him, etc. When I get mad like that, he acts devastated until he feels we've made up. It doesn't work this way for everything - but as a parallel in stockwork Odin is soft and responsive when dealing with a gentle, easy going handler, and *really* notes his corrections when they are few and mild, and yet gets pretty hard when people are being hard on him and correcting him a lot or harshly - he's been called a"little bastard" before!

[Freeman 101]

Teaching a dog an alternate positive behavour that can be rewarded is better than just trying to punish the behaviour into extinction.

 

I really agree with you in most situations, and your suggestions are what I attempted when Freeman first started showing interest in cars. I thought I had it under control until one day he lunged away from me while he was on leash, got loose, and went after a car. It was one of those moments where my heart fell to my feet and I thought that I was going to witness my puppy's death.

 

After surving this incident

I then bought the spray commander collar; it's works like the shock collar but instead of shocking it sprays citronella.

I then went out on old county roads and had friends drive past us.

I sprayed him each and every time he made the slightest attempt to go after a car. I did not wait until he was chasing, but instead sprayed him the second he made any move toward the automobile. It only took a few trials to stop the behavior.

 

After he quit making any attempts to go after cars, I then started playing ball with him with cars in the background, but for a very long, long time I kept the collar on him just in case.

 

This car chasing attempt happened when he was 6 months, he will be 5 in March and he has never attempted to go after cars again. I can't say that my method would work for every dog, but it worked for mine.

[in2adventure]

I am all about positive training and everything that goes with it, but there are times when the "coming to Jesus" meeting is nessessary and not at all harmful. Lucia has gotten them for chasing down traffic or chasing down children. Both of which could have serious conciquenses on her health if contact is made.

 

I have to be VERY proactive in both cases, but a low, growly "I don't think so" from me will settle her right down. Definately get a handle on traffic chasing now. Everyone has really good ideas for desensitizing.

[ejano]

Assuming the dog doesn't make a mistake in the meantime and get killed for it. I'm sure you think your way is the best way, but as I've said before on this forum, when a life is at stake, I don't waste time with feel-good methods. If you are uncomfortable with a "come to Jesus" approach, that's fine, but to state that one way is *better* than another is silly. You might like your method better, but that doesn't mean it's a better method. And of course, we've had the discussion on this forum numerous times about the desirability of teaching alternate behaviors vs. saying "don't do that" and letting the dog make choices about what it can do, so I won't go into that here.

 

Flyer,

For me, a "come to Jesus" meeting simply means getting in the dog's face and letting it know in no uncertain terms that I am one unhappy human. Occasionally I may grab the "cheek hairs" (the scruff-like skin on the sides of the face), but despite the use of the term punishment by others, I certainly don't beat the dog and generally don't even have to lay a hand on the dog. All I want to do is let the dog know that I am very, very unhappy. You don't have to scream, you just have to speak with harsh, growling tone. (and most of the dogs I might have here have probably already been raised--if adults--to understand a voice correction, so it's not as if a much more forceful voice correction is totally alien to them). Of course, if you are uncomfortable doing this, then it won't likely be effective and you should go ahead with whatever method--treats, alternative behaviors, whatever--that you can do effectively and consistently.

 

I don't think that you will blow the trust of your dog if you do use a "come to Jesus" method. Dogs are like children and they are most comfortable when they know their boundaries. My method makes it clear to them in no uncertain terms what those boundaries are. It's also not something that is done repetitively; I don't think I've ever had to use the method more than once, twice tops, for any particular dog. Granted, usually for me I'm using this method to prevent a dog (young or old) chasing and perhaps killing the small animals who live here on the farm with us (the lives that are at stake) and the end result needs to be that the dog isn't interested in bothering the small animals even when I am nowhere in sight. This is one reason why I don't use the "alternate behavior" method. It's not as if I walk through the yard with my dog on a leash and when it notices a small chick run by I want it to sit and look at me instead of giving chase. I don't want the dog to offer any alternative behavior other than choosing not to chase/harass small animals. I need for the dog to understand that certain things are completely off limits all the time, with or without the presence of a human, with or without the presence of other dogs, and no matter how tempting that small animal might be.

 

If Bea will always be on leash with you when vehicles are around, then you can probably take the time to teach an alternate behavior in response to a passing vehicle. I wouldn't dream of claiming that my method is better than any other for you; I just know what works for me.

 

J.

 

 

I endorse Julie's method and philosophy, especially when the animal may come to harm. We had a rescue dog that was fascinated with wheels and I made every attempt to distract, desensitize, everything others have suggested. I wish now I'd taken him by the scruff of his neck and made him think he was going to die if he ever so much as looked at at wheel of a moving car again because that's what happened...he slipped out in the road and lunged at a car. He was killed instantly and I've cried for him every day for nearly a year. I love my new puppies and would never give them up but that dog was part of my soul.

 

Look at it this way - what would you do if your child was darting toward the road?

 

I think desensitizing works for most situations, but when it comes to things that you don't get a second chance at, there's got to be a real clear understanding.

 

One admired trait of the working Border Collie is the fact that they can, in the vernacular, "take a correction" and go on about their business, now understanding what is expected of them, not holding it against you because they trust you and know that you are fair and generous in your rewards for good behavior.

[geonni banner]

"I endorse Julie's method and philosophy, especially when the animal may come to harm."

 

"I think desensitizing works for most situations, but when it comes to things that you don't get a second chance at, there's got to be a real clear understanding."

 

"One admired trait of the working Border Collie is the fact that they can, in the vernacular, "take a correction" and go on about their business, now understanding what is expected of them, not holding it against you because they trust you and know that you are fair and generous in your rewards for good behavior."

 

Hear, hear! This is the real world where cars, motorcycles, some dogs and some people can make a dog dead in short order. I think that dogs need to learn that their actions have consequences, and that in the real world this does not mean "Mommy's withholding the yummy cheese," It means that big hunk of steel will kill you dead.

 

I've said it before and I'll probably say it again. If a dog is never allowed to experience negative consequences for any reason, he/ she will be traumatized when something bad finally happens to him/her. (And it will, try though you might to avoid it.) You can't wrap a dog up in cotton wool and protect them by waving liver at them. Cows kick, sheep butt, dogs bite and people get mad. Dogs learn quickly when they jump in the water that water is wet. They may like it or they may not, but it's unlikely that a normal dog will feel that the water was mean to them. They will just consider the consequences the next time the tennis ball bounces into the pool. It's no different with the "Come to Jesus" talk. That's simply what happens when you put a toe in the road with out a release from mom/dad. Life is better off the asphalt.

 

In some cases a big-time reality-check is the kindest option.

[deve6641]

Ooky - thank you for telling us about your boundary training.

Freeman - your spray collar training sounds like a good investment in time.

 

Flyer have you had success with Bea?

 

I think Northof49's method is a more typical companion dog training method, and its worked for her so there is obviously merritt to it as long as your dog is always safely on leash.

 

When my husband takes out Ellie she will sometimes follow a truck (right now we are resident managers of a mini storage so everyone is going around 10mph) and not pay him the slightest amount of attention even though he sounds like he wants to kill her. She wont come to him after he does that, she'll go with him back to the office, but she doesn't want to get close to him. Now he tells her to down instead (it stinks because everyone knows her; people will talk to her while in a moving vehicle and immediately give her attention when they get out of their car). When I'm with her she comes when I ask and I'm sure to reward her in some way by playing a quick game or with a treat. I think my husband's problem is that he hasn't spent enough time working with her -speaking of that, I think I'll have him do some downs with her tomorrow on a long line... Thank you for the inspiration and reminder of how vital training is.

[Root Beer]

My choice with Dean, who was stimulated by cars when we first adopted him and would have chased them had he been left to his own devices, was to use a reinforcement based approach. I didn't use a "feel good" method, and his life was never in danger. Until he could be trusted, he was leashed or behind a fence. No exceptions.

 

At first I did use the distraction thing and it worked up to a point. Once we got into Control Unleashed stuff, though, I used the Look at That game. It did the trick with him, and it was actually pretty quick. He is simply no longer interested in moving cars.

 

That was my choice. It worked. No time was wasted. I didn't resort to techniques that I don't personally choose to use. It was definitely a win, win. He goes down the driveway (the only unfenced part of our property) with me on a regular basis and I don't worry at all if a car goes by on the road. He doesn't care. We actually train Rally in the street and I have zero worries if cars come along. It's a 180 from his old attitude about cars!

 

So, you do have options. There are reinforcement based methods that work if that's your preference. If you want any specific suggestions other than those posted here, let me know and I'll PM you.

 

I've said it before and I'll probably say it again. If a dog is never allowed to experience negative consequences for any reason, he/ she will be traumatized when something bad finally happens to him/her.

 

Geonni - I have not found this to be true. I do not use corrections in training - period. So, I don't impose "negative conseqences" for things on my dogs, other than temporary loss of access to things that they want when necessary. They all deal just fine when bad things happen - they are not "traumatized". They learn how to deal with the tough things in life, including pain, just fine on their own, I have never needed to teach that to them.

 

In fact, I'd have to say that the only one of my dogs that I raised from the beginning, and most likely has had the cushiest existence of the four of them, deals best with the difficulties of life. The one that I have serious reason to believe was allowed to experience negative consequences at the hands of her former owners is the one who has the most difficult time when bad things happen.

 

You can't wrap a dog up in cotton wool and protect them by waving liver at them.

 

That's about as accurate of a description of a valid reinforcement based approach as if I described all use of corrections as "beating the dog over the head with a club" or something to that effect. :D

 

Dogs who are trained through reinforcement learn to deal with the hard knocks of life through living life. Life is a pretty good teacher. I've never found it the least necessary to add anything to the lessons that life teaches about consequences or hardship. That's not wrapping a dog in cotton wool. To me it's simply sensible. I would consider going out of my way to teach a dog that bad things will happen to be a waste of time. Life will do that job quite nicely, unfortunately.

[juliepoudrier]

And once again we see the clear split between the pet folks and the livestock folks.... Nothing wrong with that, but it's guaranteed to happen every time. (And I think the point GB is getting at is the fact that you aren't going to train a dog for stockwork without any corrections, and as has been noted in these types of threads before it generally is the dogs who have been raised without corrections that have the hardest time adjusting to a different training style. It's not an issue if your pet is never going to be exposed to livestock work though.)

 

And of course nothing in this discussion so far has implied that anyone "goes out of their way" to teach a dog that bad things happen. Talk about mischaracterization.

 

J.

[Root Beer]

And once again we see the clear split between the pet folks and the livestock folks.... Nothing wrong with that, but it's guaranteed to happen every time. (And I think the point GB is getting at is the fact that you aren't going to train a dog for stockwork without any corrections, and as has been noted in these types of threads before it generally is the dogs who have been raised without corrections that have the hardest time adjusting to a different training style. It's not an issue if your pet is never going to be exposed to livestock work though.)

 

Yes, it would have been helpful had GB specified that she was talking about stockwork in particular. Her statement came across as general, as if that applied to all dogs. I know she did bring up cows and sheep, but the addition of dogs biting and people getting angry did make it seem as though the statement applied to broader situations.

 

And of course nothing in this discussion so far has implied that anyone "goes out of their way" to teach a dog that bad things happen. Talk about mischaracterization.

 

J.

 

That illustrates the point that I was making in my last post very nicely!

 

No, she did not imply that anyone "goes out of their way" to teach a dog that bad things happen. OTOH, she did imply that omitting such deliberate lessons within the context of other training in favor of a reinforcement based approach to behavior modification, etc. are, in some way, detrimental to the dog (by leading to "trauma" for the dog when bad things naturally happen in life)

 

That is where we disagree. I have found the exact opposite to be true. I hope I was able to clarify.

[juliepoudrier]

Yes, it would have been helpful had GB specified that she was talking about stockwork in particular. Her statement came across as general, as if that applied to all dogs. I know she did bring up cows and sheep, but the addition of dogs biting and people getting angry did make it seem as though the statement applied to broader situations.

And I happen to think that her example of dogs potentially biting people is indeed a good one where a "come to Jesus" meeting might be appropriate. I think in her example she's referring to if your dog suddenly takes off and chases, say, a running child, you don't have time *in that moment* to start teaching an alternate behavior--you have to stop the action as it's happening and before a child gets hurt, because *that* could also be a disaster for the dog. The connection among all these examples is the dog suddenly/unexpectedly taking off and chasing something, when connection with the thing being chased could result in disaster (either immediately or later, for example, in the case of a dog bite). If your dog is always leashed and you know you'd never, even lose control of the leash, then this would never be a concern for you. And perhaps if you did lose control, you would count on your dog's excellent recall to save the day. But if you've been reading BorderCollieSam's post about his new dog Mel, it took just a second for Mel to take off and pull the leash out of his wife's hand. If it had happened because she was chasing a car, or sheep (the dog could legally be shot by the livestock owner), or a running child, then the consequences to the dog could be disastrous, and frankly that's not a time when I'd be taking a positive approach.

 

But then we both know that we train differently.

 

J.

[ejano]

And I happen to think that her example of dogs potentially biting people is indeed a good one where a "come to Jesus" meeting might be appropriate. I think in her example she's referring to if your dog suddenly takes off and chases, say, a running child, you don't have time *in that moment* to start teaching an alternate behavior--you have to stop the action as it's happening and before a child gets hurt, because *that* could also be a disaster for the dog. The connection among all these examples is the dog suddenly/unexpectedly taking off and chasing something, when connection with the thing being chased could result in disaster (either immediately or later, for example, in the case of a dog bite). If your dog is always leashed and you know you'd never, even lose control of the leash, then this would never be a concern for you. And perhaps if you did lose control, you would count on your dog's excellent recall to save the day. But if you've been reading BorderCollieSam's post about his new dog Mel, it took just a second for Mel to take off and pull the leash out of his wife's hand. If it had happened because she was chasing a car, or sheep (the dog could legally be shot by the livestock owner), or a running child, then the consequences to the dog could be disastrous, and frankly that's not a time when I'd be taking a positive approach.

 

But then we both know that we train differently.

 

J.

 

Perhaps we could meet in the middle by suggesting that a correction is appropriate when the dangerous behavior first pops up and now, being made aware of it can work on desensitization as necessary. I have found with Robin, who is a very happy well adjusted dog, that if he does something very unsociable, like peeing on the Christmas Tree , one sharp word when he is in the middle of the unwanted action pretty much stops it. I posted a note about him pestering me all the time last week and received some very good mild responses to the behavior and he's now a perfect peach - I realized that I was absentmindedly patting him on the head and pushing him away when what he really needed was a sharp no. Then I watched out for him coming, made him sit and wait a minute while I finished what I was doing then I turned to pet and praise. It's not all about severeness with a dog, as Julie pointed out, but figuring out what works best for a given situation. Robin wasn't in danger of getting killed by bothering me while I was working but you'd better believe when he started looking at those vacuum cleaner wheels, I sat right down on him.

[Freeman 101]

Freeman - your spray collar training sounds like a good investment in time.

 

Well, maybe, but the keyword in your sentence is "investment". I wanted to cover all my bases to increase the odds that my dog was not hit by an automobile.

 

I also don't want it to appear that I allowed my dog to run loose. When the incident happened he was on leash. I had made the mistake of believing that I had the situation under control, so I failed to notice that he had locked onto a car coming over the hill. His lunge was so quick and furious that it caused me to fall and drop the leash. (I have issues with balance and do fall easily).

 

I only had to spray him a few times, so this was not a huge time commitment.

 

What did take more time was training the alternative behaviors: down in motion (having him respond to down while going after a moving object <I never let him go after a car to practice this, instead I used balls>, and recall while going after moving objects.

 

The C2J method would probably not have worked for me since I have limited hand strength.

[geonni banner]

Ok,

 

First, I was in a cranky mood last night, and was, shall we say, less than diplomatic. Apologies to anyone whose bristles may have been put up by my post.

 

Second, I am not a stock dog person, although I would like to be, hope that that is in my future, and handle my dog in a way that I feel will be conducive to her taking to the work with the right foundation and a likelihood of making a smooth transition into stock work training techniques.

 

Third, I am not known widely known for my great reservoirs of patience.

 

But... I do hold with the general idea that dogs trained without any negative consequences are missing an important part of the big picture. And yes, I do think that that will have an effect when a dog is introduced to stock work, which can be dangerous, especially for a dog like mine, who will be having her first experience of stock work at nearly two years of age. She is very excitable - can go from zero to sixty in 2.4 seconds. While that in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing, I need to feel that the first time she dives at a sheep (or any other living thing) with the intention to execute a toothy grab, that a sharp verbal correction will be instantly responded to. By using corrections verbal and physical, I feel I have arrived at that state.

 

My dog does not slink away or avoid me on the occasions when I have felt it necessary to speak harshly to her, or use a physical correction. Trust and corrections are not mutually exclusive.

 

Everybody has their own idea of what a well-trained dog can or cannot be expected to do/ not do, and what it should look and feel like. Everybody has different ways of achieving those desiderata. Landscape is critical in making those decisions. What the dog can expect to face in that landscape should inform the mind-set created in the dog by the application of handling and training. My girl is all business. Which is not to say she doesn't have fun and enjoy life. She does, in spades. But she isn't goofy and la-de-da about much of anything. She is serious by nature, and by nurture. Her motto is "Get it right, dammit." My last dog's motto was "Ok, whatever, don't worry, be happy."

 

I brought these dogs up in a manner tailored to suit their temperaments. The techniques were as different as night and day. But both dogs became happy, well-adjusted workers and were reliably obedient. That's the bottom line for me.

[flyer]

Oh lord! Where is the one size fits all answer I was looking for? (Though knew I wouldn't get.)

 

A "Come to Jesus" moment would not ever have been a good thing for Colt, but of course that is exactly why he will probably never require that much of a correction. Colt accepted authority from the get go and yet like me he is no shrinking violet. He is the type of dog who says if it's important to you, you lead, but if a dog crosses a line with him, he will speak his mind quick and sharp and then he is Mr. Congenial once more. He is actually much less submissive than I first thought. Perhaps he is becoming more confident as he ages. He is 15 mos. now. Colt is very much his own dog. Neither a leader nor a follower.

 

Bea on the other hand is brash, happy go lucky, let's do it my way, let's do it my way, unless you are firm and clear. I think she probably could take a harsh correction and not be scarred

 

The "look at that" game was also very helpful in the jogger dept. and stranger danger with Colt. I sometimes use it with the postman if I see him coming and there is no barking at the door if Colt looks first.

 

I can appreciate the need for speed and simplicity in stock dog training and I think Bea will have talent this way so I am taking my time considering all of the advice. Because of her strong eye and intensity, I'm suspecting she'd grip quick, I think learning to take corrections would be very helpful to her future training on stock.

 

I will keep you posted on how this plays out. As always I appreciate all the responses. Bea is upping my game.

[flyer]

I am so bored, can we go now?

 

It is spooky how much your boy looks like my Colt. They are marked differently, but if marked the same I'd swear that was a pic of Colt.

[flyer]

OK, last night I had the very intense, very short chat with Bea. My daughter and I were walking the dogs and I realized that I am not the only one who walks this pup. This has to get fixed now. So first car she lunged at I caught her mid flight by the scruff and collar and with great intensity growled NO. She continued to look at cars as they went by, but never thought about lunging again. She also looked like she couldn't have cared less about the correction.

 

Tonight she wanted to chase again. Held back when I said a stern ah ah, but was heading for the curb on the very next one, so I tried again with the intense no in her face again. Colt cowered down near us. Bea went for the next car.

 

Tomorrow we begin the "Look at that" training.

[flyer]

OK, walking today and she could care less about cars. It is at night. I'm thinking the lights.