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Bea chases cars!!


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Bess crouches in the truck when she sees headlights coming down the road... and then turns and watches the vehicle go on by... I have her at a down and step on the leash when a vehicle goes by when we are walking, but she still tries to lunge for the vehicle after it gets right even with her. Part of it is the noise, the louder the truck... the more she reacts, and part of it is the speed...even a fairly quiet car going fast will evoke a response. I guess I need to get tough with the come to Jesus talk. It seems to almost have become a game for her as she will lie down as soon as she sees a vehicle approaching.

 

My point is... don't just avoid it by not walking at night...kepp on her until she gets it, otherwise, it will be like my 2 year old!

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SIGH, another "positive only" approach versus correction, can't we all just get along! LOL!!!

 

I know RB, you will not be surprised by my approach to stopping car chasing with my pup but I will share because it worked for ME! Not saying something else might NOT have worked but this is what I did and it worked perfectly!!!

 

Alright, I am absolutely with Julie on this one, this is a serious situation where your dogs life is at stake. Desperate times cause for desperate measures. My dogs are in situations where they are off leash alot and I don't want them even for a second THINKING about a car! It is also best to try to eliminate the behavior the minute you start seeing it in your pup/young dog otherwise, the longer you let it go even a little bit it WILL resurface again!! Sadly when you least expect it. So if you are settling for letting your pup "just look" at cars and not chase, this will turn into chasing at some point!!!

 

SO, I normally do NOT condone the use of a prong collar on a pup under 6 months old, BUT like I said desperate times, dangerous behavior, etc. So I took the distration approach at first. It worked a little, I could get my pup to pay attention to me when there were cars around but this approach required me to ALWAYS manage him. It didn't get rid of the behavior it just "covered it up" and I don't doubt if my pup was in a situation off leash or if he was being wlaked by someone else he probably would have reverted back to wanting to chase.

 

SO, I decided to try a harsher approach. I put the prong on my then 4 month old pup. With a loose leash or long line we went out to the road, pup saw car pup took chase. Took a hit at the end of that collar and........ my dog is not 3 years old has not so much at LOOKED at another car since that moment. Was his little puppy brain boggled at what had just happened, probably a little. Did he look at cars again after that...no. Has it damaged our relationship in any way....not at all.

 

The beauty of using a prong in this situation is that the correction is not coming from you, it is coming from the collar. You don't have to physicly touch the dog. The collar does the correcting. You say nothing.

 

The pup associates the negative correction he gets at the moment he is in chase for the car, WITH that car. Car chasing is self rewarding to the pup/dog, so when pup chases car, gets an unpleasant of enough correction associated with chasing that car that car chasing no longer provides what it did.

 

Like I said, the thing about using the prong in this situation is the owner doesn't HAVE to get in the dogs face. I persoanlly have no problem doing this but alot of people are uncomfortable with it and like someone mentioned before if you are uncomfortable doing it, it will not be effective. The owner in fact during this needs to show no emotion and say nothing.

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SIGH, another "positive only" approach versus correction, can't we all just get along! LOL!!!

 

I know RB, you will not be surprised by my approach to stopping car chasing with my pup but I will share because it worked for ME! Not saying something else might NOT have worked but this is what I did and it worked perfectly!!!

 

Wow! I've seen the light! It worked for YOU, so I'll run out and buy a prong today, slap it on my dog who could no longer care less about moving cars and give him a good yank. After all, the approach I used obviously didn't work because something different worked for you.

 

That fact that he can heel off leash while cars go by and he pays them no mind at all must mean absolutely nothing. Obviously, he is still secretly harboring a desire to chase cars and only your approach will cure him of it. Thank you for opening my eyes to my complete lack of understanding of my own dog.

 

Will that make you happy? Will that make it so we are "getting along"?

 

The use of sarcasm above was to illustrate the same point that I was making in the heeling thread.

 

When people ask questions on this forum and a technique has worked for me in a similar situation, I am going to share it. Readers are free to take it or leave it, but I am still going to get the information out there. If Eileen has a problem with that and asks me to leave, I will respectfully do so. Last time I checked, though, free sharing of information - even when opinions and approaches differ - was still welcome here.

 

I'm sorry you don't like that, but if you really want to "get along", I suggest you accept the fact that not everybody is going to use the same approach as you as a fact of life. I don't expect anyone to agree with me on approaches in training, but I'm not going to pretend that things that have worked for me don't exist just to make anyone on this forum happy.

 

I think people have a right to know their options and then make their own training choices. I know we really differ on that, so why don't we agree to disagree on that point?

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Absolutely RB, I was actually just kidding! Sorry if I offended you!!!

 

No offense taken. A bit of exasperation on my part, but it takes a lot to truly offend me. You'd pretty much have to insult my dog to do that! :D

 

I was mostly joking because I expected to get a two page post about how horrible I was from you!!! :D

 

Where have I ever said you are horrible? Seriously? Or anyone, for that matter! There's a little more exasperation. :rolleyes:

 

I've said that I do not use certain training approaches many times on here. I've never said that those who use those approaches are, by default, horrible.

 

Disagree with me all you want. But please don't imply that I'm going around saying that anyone is horrible. I actually work very hard to remain respectful in my posts - even when I completely disagree with someone's point of view. I might not always be totally successful, but I make every possible effort.

 

The only reason I responded to you at all in this thread is because you brought me into it by name. Had you left me out of it, I wouldn't have even replied to your post in particular. I threw my suggestion out there in this thread very early on. I was done with it!

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At first I did use the distraction thing and it worked up to a point. Once we got into Control Unleashed stuff, though, I used the Look at That game. It did the trick with him, and it was actually pretty quick. He is simply no longer interested in moving cars.

 

I've switched from the distraction to the Look at That approach too.

I always felt that it was unfair to ask the dog to turn its back on something scary - to teach a dog to acknowledge the object of fear/stimulation without reacting gives it a much better coping strategy IME.

 

Noone will ever persuade me that suppression of an unwanted behaviour is better than curing it by teaching the dog not to want/need to do it. The level of suppression may be such that the behaviour doesn't reappear but the potential remains.

 

Pam

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I think dealing with a situation of "fear" versus a situation where a dog is over-stimlulated or in "prey drive" mode are completely different.

 

I am not sudjesting that there is not more than one way to deal with things but if a dog is having a "fear response" of any kind I know that using a correction of any kind is the worst thing to do!!!

 

Where as dealing with a dog in a state of "high prey drive", or over-stimulated you would handle that differently. In using more positive techniques you would probably work to make sure the dog didn't reach that threshhold in the first place, or teach the dog that when he does he should look to you are what not. I find this more "management" and you run a greater risk of the dog chasing if not "managed".

 

I might get knocked off my socks by using this comparison but when training a young, exuberant dog on stock(which I am right now), when he plunges teeth first into the sheep because he is in such a high state of arousal (much like a young dog mis-placing his working drive into chasing cars) a physical correction or pressure is warranted. To get in through his thick head! If I wanted to I could put enough correction on that dog to "turn him off" if wanted. If you have seen a dog turned off to working stock they are very distrubed and it takes some coaxing to get them going again(this is obviously NOT what you want when working stock and you used TO MUCH pressure)Young dogs/pups especially are pretty impressionable. OK, maybe not a good example as I don't want to compare working stock in any way to chasing cars. Understand I am mostly trying to compare that high state or drive or arousal experienced by the dog!

 

 

SIGH, just a different perspective maybe, flame away.

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Where as dealing with a dog in a state of "high prey drive", or over-stimulated you would handle that differently. In using more positive techniques you would probably work to make sure the dog didn't reach that threshhold in the first place, or teach the dog that when he does he should look to you are what not. I find this more "management" and you run a greater risk of the dog chasing if not "managed".

 

With more traditional "positive methods", I would agree with you. If the dog were merely distracted by the handler every time a car went by, what happens when the handler is not paying attention and forgets to distract? Big problem. That's why I, like Pam, do not use distraction to handle motion stimulation anymore. (What? A "positive" method that Kristine doesn't use? Yes. I have found an approach that I have found to be exponentially more effective, yet involves no correction. Win-win-win! Love it! Don't love that I am now talking about myself in the third person, but love the win-win-win thing.)

 

The Look at That game is distinctly different from the alternate behavior/distraction approach. Through the game, the dog actually learns a new default response to the motion. Yes, you start teaching the game in situations where the dog would not reach a threshold, but in the end, you use the game in exactly the situations where the threshold has previously been reached.

 

The end result of the game is not a dog who learns a cued behavior or can be easily distracted, which would, indeed, be management, but a dog whose actual mindset about the motion is substantially changed.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Let's say Dean and I are going down toward the road in the unfenced part of our yard and I don't notice a car coming along the road. He sees the car, but he continues on with his doggy business of sniffing the grass or running in big circles. He doesn't chase the car even though I haven't said a word. He is not choosing not to chase the car because I am telling him not to, or asking for eye contact, or anything. I can totally trust him even though he used to go absolutely wild in that situation and probably would have been killed had I done that at one time. But he is actually different now. The car is not important. He sees it, but it does not trigger the "high prey drive" as it used to.

 

It's actually the exact same end result that you are going for through the correction - it is just reaching that same end result through a different pathway. A pathway that I personally prefer.

 

SIGH, just a different perspective maybe, flame away.

 

Did the above qualify as a flame? If not, let me know and I'll try harder. :rolleyes::D :D

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I think dealing with a situation of "fear" versus a situation where a dog is over-stimlulated or in "prey drive" mode are completely different.

 

No - same approach.

 

Arousal is arousal whatever the reason for it. You still apply a combination of desensitisation and counter conditioning, giving the dog the ability to remain sub threshold in the presence of the trigger for the behaviour.

 

Once you stop looking at situations and considering whether corrections are or are not appropriate it becomes easier to understand the fundamentals of what you are dealing with.

 

"It's just behaviour" as the sainted Karen Pryor says.

 

Pam

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Shyshep and Rootbeer you have both presented excellent and totally valid arguments for each of your solutions.

 

I sure hope this forum stays open to all points of view. That is one of its strengths as far as I am concerned.

 

Though each of you gave me much to think about I have chosen to go with BustopherJones' suggestion and taught Bea to use the clutch today.

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I am taking this very seriously.

 

Bea is one hard headed little dog with a lot of prey drive and that is why Shy Shep's post about this being one of those instances of over arousal in the prey dept. and how that is similar to being on stock where a dog is most certainly given a correction makes sense. I wonder if this means I will be a hopeless handler in the pen?

 

I am the only one walking her at night now until I get this fixed. In the day time she does not move to chase, though she will still look sometimes. At night she is more up in general on our walks. This walk is in the neighborhood as opposed to the morning trails.

 

She is still showing interest, but all I have to do is say ah ah and she does not move toward them at all. But I realize I am managing. I want this extinguished and since I am obviously hopeless at making any kind of scary impression on her I am working on "Look at that" at home.

 

Bea listens well in all other situations and I suppose she is listening to me around the cars because she does rein herself in. I will keep working on it and that means the Look at that game at home in prep and corrections if she moves towards.

 

Did I say Bea was a challenge? How many times now?

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I am taking this very seriously.

 

Bea is one hard headed little dog with a lot of prey drive and that is why Shy Shep's post about this being one of those instances of over arousal in the prey dept. and how that is similar to being on stock where a dog is most certainly given a correction makes sense. I wonder if this means I will be a hopeless handler in the pen?

 

I am the only one walking her at night now until I get this fixed. In the day time she does not move to chase, though she will still look sometimes. At night she is more up in general on our walks. This walk is in the neighborhood as opposed to the morning trails.

 

She is still showing interest, but all I have to do is say ah ah and she does not move toward them at all. But I realize I am managing. I want this extinguished and since I am obviously hopeless at making any kind of scary impression on her I am working on "Look at that" at home.

 

Bea listens well in all other situations and I suppose she is listening to me around the cars because she does rein herself in. I will keep working on it and that means the Look at that game at home in prep and corrections if she moves towards.

 

Did I say Bea was a challenge? How many times now?

 

Kipp gets worked up due to his high drive. A month after I got him I was thinking "what did I get myself into?". I used a combination of correction and positive reinforcement and that has worked pretty well. For Kipp I had to clearly lay out what I wanted and what I didn't want. ie, I made it known on no uncertain terms ( with a prong and a long line as it was an ingrained habit when I got him) that he couldn't chase and nip the cats, but then I also showed him what he could do - like play frisbee and focus games.

 

I worked on focus and control games in a non stimulating environment and heavily rewarded them. But I also corrected behavior that could be harmful to him/other animals. I wanted to be very clear about what was great and what was not! As I gradually worked the focus/control into more stimulating environments, he started to chose the desired response more and more and was heavily rewarded for it.

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Kipp gets worked up due to his high drive. A month after I got him I was thinking "what did I get myself into?". I used a combination of correction and positive reinforcement and that has worked pretty well. For Kipp I had to clearly lay out what I wanted and what I didn't want. ie, I made it known on no uncertain terms ( with a prong and a long line as it was an ingrained habit when I got him) that he couldn't chase and nip the cats, but then I also showed him what he could do - like play frisbee and focus games.

 

I worked on focus and control games in a non stimulating environment and heavily rewarded them. But I also corrected behavior that could be harmful to him/other animals. I wanted to be very clear about what was great and what was not! As I gradually worked the focus/control into more stimulating environments, he started to chose the desired response more and more and was heavily rewarded for it.

 

 

Yes, this is exactly how I feel about Bea. I was worried also that I had taken on too much dog, but she is proving to be a lot of fun and very trainabl, though I must be firm and clear. She does get lots of prey play and stuffies to rip up and she has a great chill for such a high drive dog. i.e. in the vets office couple of days ago for final shots she was very upset about the vet looking into her ears. I held her close, but she would flip out then I held her close and whispered chill and the vet said wow her whole body just relaxed. She looked at both ears just fine.

 

So yes, corrections and lots of positive reinforcement is how I am going with be. Corrections being verbal.

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Yes, this is exactly how I feel about Bea. I was worried also that I had taken on too much dog, but she is proving to be a lot of fun and very trainabl, though I must be firm and clear.

 

Yup, once I figured out that I had to be firm and consistent with Kipp (as opposed to Missy where my wish was her command) things got much better. He was fun and trainable, but it took almost 2 years before he really clicked with me. Now he still acts like he can't hear me once and a while and pushes the limits a little, but he deeply wants to work with me and be my dog. It's a huge change in attitude from when I got him and deeply satisfying. Your day will come come with Bea, too :rolleyes: two years from now you'll probably look back and be quite proud of what a great dog she has become!

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Dear Owners,

Like Julie, I train stockdogs with corrections (almost entirely vocal but physical in extremis) and rewards (letting them work the stock, flattering their instincts, being pleased with them).

 

With minor variations, successful stockdog trainers train like Julie and myself.

 

I dislike leashes and have poor leash handling skills.My dogs are on leash when two are walking Manhattan streets and I'm distracted; in large airline terminals, in tight, dangerous places ( median strips) some of them before I go to the handler's post and when off-lead dogs are illegal and police are present.

 

Since I live in the country and drive my dogs to swimming holes, adventure walks and the like, I pass loose neighbor's dogs who learn that mine is the DOG CAR, and pursue it: one time. I and explain to the pursuing dog that it must not chase my car. Afterwards, a verbal correction and occasional stopping without dismounting works pretty well.

 

Several years ago, by happenstance, I began meeting pet dog trainers and discovered that they trained with treats or Koehler Method or Drive Theory or ecollars. I have enormous respect for people like Margot Woods, Wendy Vollhard and Pat Miller who may have trained or helped train tens of thousands of pet dogs to do what their genetics told them not to do. Many of these dogs weren't bred to work closely with humans and none were bred to heel.

 

Training schools rage at each other. Positive trainers say their method is "scientific" and that other methods are abusive and invite unwelcome side effects. Traditional trainers say positive training is slow and ineffective. Ecollars, prong collars and choke collars are "cruel". Clicker trainers are "cookie-pushers". Within each faith, Self stim and virtuous preening is epidemic.

 

I have seen pet dogs trained to the same level of public mannerliness Julie's and my dogs exhibit by top trainers using all these methods. I have also seen insane dogs trained by positive methods, ecollars and drive theory.

 

Which method you choose should depend on your goals. As a rule, you should adopt the method successful peers use.

 

If I were training dogs for tricks or demining, I would use positive methods. If I were an unskilled pet owner, with patience, time for managing and modest expectations I'd try positive methods. If I were training for agility I'd probably use positive methods.

 

If I were training police dogs I'd use drive theory.

 

If I were training S&R dogs I'd use a combination of ecollar and treats.

 

If I had good timing, could read dogs and wanted to produce an obedient pet or obedience competitor as rapidly as possible, I'd use Koehler method and an ecollar.

 

No training method of which I am aware is more "natural" or "scientific" than any other. None is kinder or gentler. The dog savvy trainer can train a dog; the delusional, lazy, resolutely ignorant dog trainer will fail (and damage the dog) - whatever method he or she adopts.

 

On the original subject. The very first time any of my dogs shows the slightest interest in chasing cars I explain that car chasing is not allowed in our pack. Should I adopt or take in a dog that already chases cars, I would try a voice correction and if that failed, I'd put an ecollar on the dog. If you've never used one and your timing isn't very good, an ecollar is an expensive bad idea..

 

 

Donald McCaig

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A freind of mine lost his black lab a few months ago as it chased after a car it was hit by another coming in the opposite direction.....

 

I personally have allways done the come to Jesus talk with all my dogs when a dangerous situation arises or even when a dog shows a complete disregard to what I'm telling him.

 

Sam is a very confident dog and thinks he is boss with my wife and children, however he knows that when I say no I mean no due to past experiences.

 

My little pet talk ranges from a sharp low growl like tone (for example a 'get out' when he is off the lead and attempts to walk into some one elses garden) to a grab of the snout a firm stair in the eyes and a loud deep growl whilst talking to him for more extreme situations.

 

I have allways found this method to work for me and it's rarely required a second time because as soon as you anticipate the event the second time and say 'no' in my low growl he realises it's not a good move and soon refrains from attempting his action anymore in the future.

 

This technique certainly hasn't done our relationship any harm, they are like children ands

need to have boundaries and will respect you for it and enjoy their life more.

 

Imagine a football game with no rules, people would soon get fed up with the injuries and lack of rules, it's what a game is all about - having rules...

 

Ps just used this technique to good effect whilst typing this, Sam is in another room behind a closed door and I could hear him chewing something, I just used my voice and he soon stopped.

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I am taking this very seriously.

 

Bea is one hard headed little dog with a lot of prey drive

 

OK - if you take this purely as acase of predatory chase drive, I would urge you to read this link -

 

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-i-stop-my-dog-chasing

 

And before anyone thinks that this will be more drivel from yet another tree hugger who has never dealt with anything more challenging than Grandma's toothless pet poodle, this is the guy who wrote it -

 

David Ryan was a police dog handler and Home Office accredited instructor for twenty-six years until 2007, helping to lead the revolution in professional dog training out of the “push, pull and shout” methods used since the Great War.

 

During that time he trained dogs from seven stone German Shepherds to one-stone-wringing-wet Cocker Spaniels, including general-purpose police dogs (the ones with the teeth), drugs, weapons and cash detection, explosives search and firearms support dogs.

 

(Just a snippet from his bio.)

 

Ah, but no BCs specifically mentioned so what he says is worthless, you might think - but his practice is situated in the heart of BC country where the breed originated and where sheep chasing is endemic and where the world and his wife own a BC or three.

 

Pam

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If I were training S&R dogs I'd use a combination of ecollar and treats.

 

Lucky that's not your job then.

 

Just in case you're interested in how an S&R dog can be trained -

 

http://www.ukfssartdogteams.org.uk/Trainin...%20Document.pdf

 

http://www.sardalakes.org.uk/training.html (no electric shock collars, just assessment of dogs with stock).

 

Pam

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Dear Owners,

When I said that I'd train S&R dogs with an ecollar and treats, Ms. Pam wrote:"Lucky that's not your job then."

Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) Certification is well beyond this geezer's physical ability but treats, ecollars and voice are the tools I've seen used by working (911, Katrina) S&R trainer/handlers in this country. I've never seen S&R training in the UK.

 

Donald McCaig

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Dear Owners,

When I said that I'd train S&R dogs with an ecollar and treats, Ms. Pam wrote:"Lucky that's not your job then."

Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) Certification is well beyond this geezer's physical ability but treats, ecollars and voice are the tools I've seen used by working (911, Katrina) S&R trainer/handlers in this country. I've never seen S&R training in the UK.

 

Donald McCaig

 

This is opposite to my experiences with FEMA USAR handlers and SAR work in general. The dogs selected have a strong hunt drive and love playing with a toy. Training is set up to be highly rewarding. Human scent is the source of their reward therefore the dogs learn to hunt through anything to find/alert on that scent. Handlers stay away from using collars of any type on training piles to avoid the dog getting it snagged on something. And collars of any type are not allowed for FEMA testing and working. I'm sure e-collars are used to some extent in some training areas, but I don't believe they have a place in the groundwork of training a SAR dog. If you're relying a lot on an e-collar to train your dog, then your dog is either not well suited for the work, or you as a trainer have not laid a good training foundation for your dog. I'm confident I could find a several USAR trainers that would agree with this.

 

Here is an example of what I have found to be typical of SAR training exercises.

 

My own dog is a wilderness search dog but has been trained to several of the FEMA obedience/agility/directional standards. I used treats in the beginning, but gradually switched to using toys as a reward for most of his work. It was probably 90% motivational and 10% correction based training.

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