What to do.

[desertranger]

Recap: New years day Jin jumped over a 4ft wall without realizing there was a 20ft drop on the other side. At the time examination and observation over the folloiwng few days convinced me he was not injured. I believe he saw a bird he wanted to chase and that;s what he did.

 

Tues night a couple of coyotes showed up by the wash next to the greensward. Jin just kept chasing his ball. One time the coyotes came and started to follow him. I gave him a recall he responded to and we (Abby too) retreated.

 

This morning we all took a sniffy walk. No toys just a walk along the lower wash. We were in the center of the wash about half a mile from the highway where it is lined with a concrete (40degs(?)) wall along both sides. Lots of sand, dried mud and brush. Jin was having a good old time sniffing everything when I saw a coyote running very fast along the west wall. Before I could give Jin a command to lie down or grab him he bolted after the coyote toward the highway. It was the fastest I ever saw him run and he disappeared from sight despite being recalled by voice and whistle. To say I panicked is an understatement. The last I saw them they were very close to the highway. A minute later I saw a flash of white as Jin returned. I examined him and didn't find any signs of contact so I don't think he caught up. I have no idea what happened at the end of the chase or why it came to an end. Jin did return solidly as if I had called him when playing 4-ball. I'm working on Control Unleashed but haven't gotten far enough to get a hand on this apparently new problem. I will say he also likes to chase birds in the wash across from the house. I just let him do it until I'm ready to walk on then he breaks off and follows.

 

An aside here that DD pointed out. It may have been a feral or abandoned GSD. In retrospect she might be right because the coloring seemed to be too dark for a coyote, maybe a bit heavier/larger, and it was running non-stop really fast. I've never seen a coyote run like that. They lope then put on a short burst of speed and lope again. They're also stealthy and very aware of their surroundings. This critter seemed totally unaware of us or anything else. Jin took off at BC superspeed and didn't catch it (as far as I know) .

 

The problem however is Jin's bolting.

[Laurae]

He needs to go back on a long line.

[luv2napp]

That's always my worst fear...Lacee bolting. I'm a chicken, she's 10 and I still always have her on a leash, although I'm pretty sure she wouldn't go anywhere. Then again, I live where there's lots of cars and a leash law.

 

I'm glad Jin is ok. Good luck.

[Rave]

Leash.

[IPSY]

In my opinion , leash. Once they do it once , its a done deal. They think they can bolt anytime they want because when they do come back , the only thing you can do is thank God they did. There is no recourse for them.

You need to work on your recall on long line with as many prey distractions you can find. I had to do the same with my boy and its helped alot. I would get his attention on me whenever prey would distract him and give him something better then the prey , whether it be a ball or treats like leftover steak or something. I can now get him to leave the distraction at any time and recall to me. It took alot of work on long line , but it is worth it. Absolutley no off leash for Jin anymore . Its not deserved until you get this straightened out. It can save her life. Its worked for us.

[SincereArtisan]

Jin did return solidly as if I had called him when playing 4-ball.

 

 

No, he didn't. He blew you off and took off after what he considered at the time to be more fun and worth it, and didn't come back until he felt like it. If he had made a solid recall, he would have broke from the chase and returned to you, and there would not be a reason for this post.

 

I am with the rest of those who have already suggested he return to a long line for a while. I also do not like encouraging my dogs to chase anything unless they can be called off of it. My girls will readily go after a squirrel, but one word from me puts the brakes on! Its not worth the risk.

[Alaska]

Leash.

 

I have a similar problem. Once I finally accepted that I really did have the problem, I invested in a 26' flexi. My end hooks to a carabiner hooked to a loose belt around my waist. The dog has a ton of freedom and I have my hands free, so I can enjoy my walk almost as much as if I were off leash I can reliably predict the situations where the dog can be trusted off leash. In all other situations, i.e. if there is any doubt whatsoever, we go on leash.

 

The bolting incidents are nerve-wracking and heart-breaking. I can't tell you how much less stressful my life has become since I finally accepted this approach.

 

We are working on perfecting our recall, and I do mean perfecting. Until we get there, and it could take years for this dog, the flexi strategy stays in place.

 

As a side note, I find flexis to be a nightmare when there is more than one dog on a flexi or more than one human present (off-leash humans always seem to get tangled up - off-leash dogs don't seem to have that problem). Luckily, I don't have to deal with this on my walks.

[kelpiegirl]

Um, from now on, you have to mention Yippee's status when you post, 'k? Thanks

Leash.

 

I have a similar problem. Once I finally accepted that I really did have the problem, I invested in a 26' flexi. My end hooks to a carabiner hooked to a loose belt around my waist. The dog has a ton of freedom and I have my hands free, so I can enjoy my walk almost as much as if I were off leash I can reliably predict the situations where the dog can be trusted off leash. In all other situations, i.e. if there is any doubt whatsoever, we go on leash.

 

The bolting incidents are nerve-wracking and heart-breaking. I can't tell you how much less stressful my life has become since I finally accepted this approach.

 

We are working on perfecting our recall, and I do mean perfecting. Until we get there, and it could take years for this dog, the flexi strategy stays in place.

 

As a side note, I find flexis to be a nightmare when there is more than one dog on a flexi or more than one human present (off-leash humans always seem to get tangled up - off-leash dogs don't seem to have that problem). Luckily, I don't have to deal with this on my walks.

[Lewie'sMom]

Scarey, scarey, scarey, scarey! My heart is in my throat just thinking about what you went through. I agree with the others. Keep Jin a leash/long lead. His safety is most important.

 

So, glad the boy is OK.

[Dixie_Girl]

Leash or long line is fine, but it is apparent that Jin KNOWS what is required of him, but chooses something different. My house is surrounded by woods. Deep woods with an abundance of wild life, especially deer. Because of Jackson once getting lost in these vast woods, and I knew he had a great recall normally, I had to do something that would be as fool proof as possible. So, after we got him back, I started working with him in the fenced yard. Next to sheep, Jackson loves balls (really anything that can be thrown a distance!) and he is very intense on them. So, I would throw the ball and when he would take off after it, I would immediately order a down. It took a while but soon, when he heard down, he went down. I then started saying, that'll do. He knows this to mean what ever it is he is doing, has to stop and he looks to me for further instruction. I have called him off two deers, Skip too, and it was a success. And yes, he was already in chase when I called him off. Something you might consider. Just understand that nothing in this life is guaranteed but death and taxes. ( I just wish I could do them in that order!) Good luck!

[ejano]

I'm thinking that Jin and Robin are at about the same stage in recalls - they know what they're supposed to do, but they're still young enough that they're not rock solid. I done a great deal of thinking, reading and observing these pups and I'm coming to the conclusion that a young, unneutered male dog is a special risk because of their intensity - at this stage they have a biological imperative for high risk behavior.

 

I've been slowly introducing Robin to off leash walks in the back field and believe me, after what happened to Scotty, it's a heart pounding to let him go even though we're in a very safe place. We worked on the long lead with the clicker all summer and I take something really yummy with me and call him back when he gets a certain distance away -- the goal being to teach him to check back with me at regular intervals. But I've found he's so excited that he comes back bout he could care less about the treat. He just bumps my hand and away he goes.

 

He's coming back nicely but if he gets distracted as Jin did, I don't have the lung power to shout him back or chase him over hill and dale and he tends to ignore a lot of talking any way. One sharp command is good enough for him on most occasions so I bought a whistle -- not the shepherd's whistle but just a good old fashioned regulation gym teacher whistle. When were out in the fields, that is going to be his call back signal - he can't fail to hear it or misinterpert it because unlike my voice, it will always be the same. Also, I'm not waiting any longer to neuter these guys -- they're going next week at just over ten months.

 

Liz

[Shetlander]

I agree. Jin needs to be on a leash or at the very least a long drag line until his recall is fixed.

 

I feel bad about Quinn's recall. He's four and a half, incredibly bright, and has the iffiest recall of any of my dogs. All of them, between basic obedience training as pups and just living with me, developed rock solid recalls by the time they were adults. I've done more "touch ups" and refresher courses with Quinn's recall than all of the dogs I've ever owned put together, but he still seems to think "here" is negotiable. So I'm very careful where he is off leash. Of course, he's also turning into a terrible counter surfer, so obviously my training is not up to snuff these days!

[desertranger]

There is no question that Jin goes back on the long lead. His recall up to now has been very good but he needs more focus. I agree with Liz on this one. The thing is I don't want to get Jin neutered until he's at least 18 months to give him a chance to mature physically. That's June. thing is I had him at the park yesterday and everything was a solid as a rock. Dogs walk or run by and if he starts to go investigate he came back when I called him both voice and whistle. It's these odd incidents that drive me crazy.

[ejano]

There is no question that Jin goes back on the long lead. His recall up to now has been very good but he needs more focus. I agree with Liz on this one. The thing is I don't want to get Jin neutered until he's at least 18 months to give him a chance to mature physically. That's June. thing is I had him at the park yesterday and everything was a solid as a rock. Dogs walk or run by and if he starts to go investigate he came back when I called him both voice and whistle. It's these odd incidents that drive me crazy.

 

 

I would put the "odd incidents" down to hormones. I saw a real difference between Robin at six months, eight months, and now ten months. He's settlling down again and really wants to learn and do things but for awhile there he and Brodie were both a handful.

 

Timing for neutering is certainly much debated. For me, especially as Robin has already demonstrated his ability to jump a six foot fence and my husband has declined to invest in concertina wire , I feel its safer all around to neuter early to curb some potential wanderlust. They don't go out in the yard unobserved, but I couldn't stop him if he decided to go over the top again. I don't plan to breed, they won't be working at a demanding level, and they're both nicely filled out at ten months.

 

Liz

[BustopherJones]

Compromise between a leash and a long line: 26 Foot Flexi Lead There are heavier duty versions than the one in the link, but you get the idea. The long retractable lead gives me the option of allowing Annie to wander, or to limit her range.

[Ooky]

I would put the "odd incidents" down to hormones. I saw a real difference between Robin at six months, eight months, and now ten months. He's settlling down again and really wants to learn and do things but for awhile there he and Brodie were both a handful.

 

Without getting into the best-time-to-neuter debate (I really wish I had fought my vet at the time and waited with Odin), I don't think you can definitively chalk what you've described here with either Jin or Robin to hormones. Odin had no hormones to speak of and still went through periods, up until about 12 months or even later to some degree, where he would be great for a while and then all the sudden seem to lose his training. These periods were both long term (like, a month or two of seeming very well trained followed by a month or two of seeming to need training all over again), and also related to a given day based on circumstances/distractions. As a consequence, like Alaska, if there was a question he remained on leash. I have called Odin off squirrels and deer successfully but still to this day I won't let him off the leash around sheep unless we are going to work or I *know* he understands we are not working them - which isn't often if they are in sight.

 

Other dogs at the park, or even the park itself, may simply not present the same distraction to Jin as birds and coyotes in the wash.

 

I'm not saying that you shouldn't neuter or should neuter them right now - I think that's each owner's decision. I'm just trying to say these issues might still exist even if you had neutered way before now. Beyond hormones, they are still growing up. Their brains continue to mature regardless and socially they are learning the extent of their independance from you and what that means.

[ejano]

Without getting into the best-time-to-neuter debate (I really wish I had fought my vet at the time and waited with Odin), I don't think you can definitively chalk what you've described here with either Jin or Robin to hormones. Odin had no hormones to speak of and still went through periods, up until about 12 months or even later to some degree, where he would be great for a while and then all the sudden seem to lose his training. These periods were both long term (like, a month or two of seeming very well trained followed by a month or two of seeming to need training all over again), and also related to a given day based on circumstances/distractions. As a consequence, like Alaska, if there was a question he remained on leash. I have called Odin off squirrels and deer successfully but still to this day I won't let him off the leash around sheep unless we are going to work or I *know* he understands we are not working them - which isn't often if they are in sight.

 

Other dogs at the park, or even the park itself, may simply not present the same distraction to Jin as birds and coyotes in the wash.

 

I'm not saying that you shouldn't neuter or should neuter them right now - I think that's each owner's decision. I'm just trying to say these issues might still exist even if you had neutered way before now. Beyond hormones, they are still growing up. Their brains continue to mature regardless and socially they are learning the extent of their independance from you and what that means.

 

 

Agreed. Every experience is different.

 

Liz

[Olivia]

I would like to agree about the time to neuter points. Generalizing is dangerous. I have a male dog who is 7.5 years old who was just neutered. He never, and I mean never, blew off a recall. Not as a 6 month old, 9 month old, 12 month old, etc. I could easily call him off of a female in heat even!

 

Training, training, training. Don't excuse it with 'oh, it's just hormones'.

 

Olivia

[ejano]

I would like to agree about the time to neuter points. Generalizing is dangerous. I have a male dog who is 7.5 years old who was just neutered. He never, and I mean never, blew off a recall. Not as a 6 month old, 9 month old, 12 month old, etc. I could easily call him off of a female in heat even!

 

Training, training, training. Don't excuse it with 'oh, it's just hormones'.

 

Olivia

 

Training is the obvious solution but one has to look at causes. My thinking is that at a certain age, a biological imperative inherit in every living organism demands that a young male dog challenge elements in his environment but I allow that the expression of that demand is different in every dog. Some may not be as intense.

 

As a young, un-neutered male goes through puberty, the testosterone and other hormones will logically increase the pressure to ensure survival, protection of territory, competition between siblings/pack mates/ strange animals etc. It's not really so very different from the reasons why young men can be sent to war, die in larger numbers in car accidents and other high risk behaviors. At that age, their biological imperative convinces them they are made of Teflon.

 

Using Jin as an example, he doesn't willy nilly chase after anything in he sees, only what is new and unfamiliar -- Ranger himself admitted to curiosity over what kind of animal it was - coyote or feral dog. It isn't that he can't be trained out of the response, it's just that the first step is to figure out why he's doing it - which was the original question. My response simply shared my thinking and hopefully contributed to a positive way in the discussion.

 

 

Every dog is different. I could very well wait to neuter Brodie. He's much easier than Robin in many ways - though he's just as smart, energetic, happy, and responsive. He's just not as driven to find mischief. But "that Robin" has he's known to all who know him, is a different story. He's bigger, his chest is wider, he's got a nice bone structure, and he won't leave Ladybug alone, even if she is spayed. I feel he will be at less risk of an accident or losing him this spring and summer as he charges over the fence after getting a whiff of some female dog I don't know about five miles down the road.