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*ha! excuse the typo in the subject...... growling, not growing!*

 

For the past 6 weeks or so we have noticed that some dogs are growling at Shiloh as we walk by. I would say at least 1 or 2 a day (we pass maybe 10 dogs a day) This has happened a few times off leash while walking through a park (not a dog park) and also on leash. Usually we just walk away and Shiloh steps back, turns his head and ignores the dog. He still plays well with many other dogs that we meet and friends that he has.

 

About a week ago Shiloh was playing with another dog for a few minutes and the dog started to growl, bark...and then went in for a bite. He scratched Shilohs face with his teeth, Shiloh had his tail between his legs. Immediately my husband scooped up Shiloh (who had a bite face on too at that point) and we left the park. Today we walked by a dog we knew- and immediately he started to growl at Shiloh and then started to bark- Shiloh backed up and showed his teeth- we gave a quick leash correction and walked on.

 

Anyways- it seems like he smells weird (?!) or is doing something that is sending a signal that is bothering other dogs. He is about 8 months now and not neutered- my husband is wondering if that could be an issue for other male dogs ( all of the issues have been with older male dogs). Up until a few weeks ago (even with the same dogs) everything was fine?? Please let us know your thought- or ideas to trouble shoot this problem.

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For the past 6 weeks or so we have noticed that some dogs are growling at Shiloh as we walk by. I would say at least 1 or 2 a day (we pass maybe 10 dogs a day) This has happened a few times off leash while walking through a park (not a dog park) and also on leash. Usually we just walk away and Shiloh steps back, turns his head and ignores the dog. He still plays well with many other dogs that we meet and friends that he has.

 

About a week ago Shiloh was playing with another dog for a few minutes and the dog started to growl, bark...and then went in for a bite. He scratched Shilohs face with his teeth, Shiloh had his tail between his legs. Immediately my husband scooped up Shiloh (who had a bite face on too at that point) and we left the park. Today we walked by a dog we knew- and immediately he started to growl at Shiloh and then started to bark- Shiloh backed up and showed his teeth- we gave a quick leash correction and walked on.

 

Anyways- it seems like he smells weird (?!) or is doing something that is sending a signal that is bothering other dogs. He is about 8 months now and not neutered- my husband is wondering if that could be an issue for other male dogs ( all of the issues have been with older male dogs). Up until a few weeks ago (even with the same dogs) everything was fine?? Please let us know your thought- or ideas to trouble shoot this problem.

 

 

Not sure if it relates but Brodie and Robin, both males and the same age, started making faces at each other at about that age. I put it down to Robin pushing Brodie around outside but I also think hormones are playing a part....if I don't watch them carefully for triggers, Brodie still bares his teeth at Robin. I can't wait for the vet appt (three weeks and counting) ...maybe things will settle down. Ladybug can't wait either. Even though she's spayed, they've both started sniffing around her around this week so she's growling at them all the time. Maybe I'm too impatient for them to calm down, but why anyone who wasn't specifically breeding would own an unneutered dog is beyond me. It's a regular pain in the neck. :rolleyes: - even though they're just ten months old.

 

Though to be fair to them, I have noticed a turn in their attitudes. They are suddenly more able to concentrate and really want to learn things and they sure are looking pretty now that they've filled out.

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I thik part of the answer is in the owners not socializing their dog properly. It seems to me that I run into more reactive dogs these days than I have say 10 years ago. I think part of it is due to people not taking the time to train their dogs either.

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I thik part of the answer is in the owners not socializing their dog properly. It seems to me that I run into more reactive dogs these days than I have say 10 years ago. I think part of it is due to people not taking the time to train their dogs either.

 

I don't think that there are necessarily more reactive, poorly socialized dogs out there. I think that we have seen a shift in society; more people are treating their dogs as family and as a result are taking them to public places more often, whether they should be there or not. In the past most of these dogs would not leave their owners' property.

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Intact males seem to draw challenging responses from neutered males, or at least that's what I've been told. Solo gets growled at all the time, but that's because he's weird. His shrink explained to me once that other dogs can tell he's ill at ease, and normal dog behavior is to provoke a response to get more information. It's basically like Solo is wearing a kick-me sign. He gets growled at by dogs on the other side of the street when he's walking by minding his own business and not even looking at them. He almost always ignores them, so it isn't like he's doing anything to deserve it.

 

Is Shiloh weird?

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I think it's his hormonal cocktail giving the other dogs a message that they feel obliged to act aggressively on. I had an intact Rough Collie without a mean bone in his body and he used to get the stink-eye from males all the time. Got jumped a couple of times. It would stop for awhile if I bathed him, but when the "boy smell" started building up again he'd get attitude from males. He didn't smell any different to me - but we all know how puny the human sense of smell is - compared with a dog's...

 

Desert Ranger is right - those aggressive dogs should be under better control - but I think for a lot of city dogs especially, they don't often encounter the range of scents produced by an intact male (or female, come to that) and they just sort of freak out. It overpowers them. They either try to kick butt or, oddly, get sexually aroused and try to mate with them. (You can imagine how this is received by an intact male!) It works the other way around too - the intact male will sometimes try to cover the neutered males. I'm not talking about a paw over the back or dominance mounting. They are seriously trying to make puppies!

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Ouzo is intact and he rarely gets growled at - but dogs are drawn to him indeed, more than to other dogs at the park. Might be his intensity and his way of ignoring everyone else except me and the ball. If someone tries to jump him he royally ignores them - and that takes care of 98% of curious dogs, or, if they are too pushy, he growls a bit while holding his ball and gets his shackles up and makes himself taller while still trying to avoid the confrontation.

 

Today we went to a dog park - first time in months (due to weather) - and after a group of ACD mixes were way to pushy with him and one body slammed into him, he turned around, stood his ground then chased the dog away. No biting, no fighting - just decided enough is enough.

 

Here's the moment I was talking about (I was sporting a manual focus lens so sorry for the quality) - I think he was entitled to tell that spotted guy off. And it looks like the ACD was realizing he had pushed it too far.

 

4243631564_78b45abce6.jpg

 

And a minute after this encounter, Ouzo demonstrates his ignoring tactic to much larger dogs - it worked :rolleyes:

 

4243661784_74e9cff4d9.jpg

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I agree that it could very well likely be the fact that he isn't neutered.

 

There is also a possibility that he needs a brush up in doggy manners so to speak. Maybe he's not sending the right signals to other dogs and is being slightly offensive? These things are very subtle and often hard for us humans to see. You also have to remember that dogs meeting head on, as in walking towards each other down a side walk (if they are on the same side of the street) is not the 'norm' as far as dog meetings go, so both animals could be put off by this. If your dog stares for too long or something silly like that, he could very easily get a growl in return. I'm not going to automatically assume these dogs are all aggressive or reactive though. It could be a million different things that one dog or both dogs are doing. In the case of the incident at the park... I am pretty sure there were signs something was going to happen before the growl and it escalated before anyone realized what was going on. He's an adolescent so he could either be challenging the rules or just being a silly teenager.

 

Also, I'd like to mention that not all dogs growl in an aggressive way. I know this very, very large male husky who happens to give out a bit of a growl when he wants to meet and play with a dog or a person for that matter. It's extremely intimidating, but he is purely trying to play... he just doesn't get it that the growl might be offensive to some! Of course this isn't something you encounter every day, so it's not likely the case in your situation, but it's still possible.

 

Please don't give your dog a leash correction for "trying" to stand his ground. It could cause a whole heap of trouble down the line and could really turn him into a ticking time bomb. In that situation, I would simply remain neutral turn around (or cross the street) and remove you and your dog from the situation as calmly as possible.

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I have a reactive dog who sometimes growls at approaching dogs. Definitely, intact male dogs trigger him more often than non-intact dogs. But beyond that, there seems to be a wide range of body language that gets Buddy all riled up.

 

Direct staring, in particular, is a big trigger. Does Shiloh stare at dogs as they approach?

 

Another trigger is a stiff posture - or even a stiff build, as in the kind that boxers and pit bulls have.

 

Sometimes, my dog will walk off the path and do an excellent job of fake-sniffing trees and underbrush when he really doesn't want to have to meet another dog face-to-face. This is an entirely different reaction from the growling-as-if-challenged behavior. I sure can't understand all the subtle signals the dogs give off as they pass each other.

 

Mary

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Guest echoica

it could be part that he is intact but maybe not. i think it has a lot to do with the way a dog carries himself - body language - personality. how balanced they are. it could be that your dog is either exuding a lot of confidence and other dogs feel threatened or need to challenge that or possibly less confidence and other dogs are trying to take advantage. maybe it might not be your dog at all. could be that many of the dogs you encounter on your walks are not trained well, under-exercised or not socialized properly making them act out when they meet your perfectly content dog. casey - neutered - is super submissive so he always is getting picked on by the more dominant dogs everywhere we go and dogs tend to bark at him - even though he never barks at them - while walking down the street. i think the key thing is to continue the socialization and contact so that the dog knows how to deal with these situations as they arise. like anda mentioned above for her dog, casey deals the appropriate action depending on the situation. because even though he might be more fearful than other dogs he is still very balanced and well-socialized. but i could be totally off...these were just my initial thoughts :rolleyes:

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Thanks everyone! This has given me so much to think about.

 

Solo- I think Shiloh may be weird! ha.... truly, he is a funny little guy and doesn't always fit in with other dogs :rolleyes:

 

I agree that it could also be that he stares. He stares at everything and tries very hard to make eye contact with humans and animals. It is one of the ways that we calm him down- no eye contact until he is calm once we get home. hmmm... and if a human makes eye contact with him outside or in the building he will trot over and sit beside them for a pat.....

 

We were also told that he is very confident- well our trainer said overly confident.... he is still shy and can be nervous of sounds, but he walks with his head high and stares at everything, crouches and watches.... with the fixed pupil eye, like with the sheep.

 

Honestly, I cant wait to have him neutered (ejano, I don't know how you deal with 2 teenage boys!). Because of his leg injury at 5 months we really want to wait until 12 months.... so we will see.

 

Also- Daisy Duke or whoever can chime in.... Why would it be incorrect for us to do a leash correction if Shiloh bares his teeth at another dog who has growled at him. Our thinking is that we would prefer a non- reaction and for him to trust that we will step in. Maybe my thinking is not logical- but I would prefer that he took our lead, which is to ignore and walk away- leaving the other dog to be dealt with by his owner. I want to do what is best for Shiloh, so I would love to hear more about why our approach could cause future problems.

 

Thanks!

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At 8 months of age a intact male becomes serious competition to other males. They also carry themselves differently .

We have a 9 month old shepherd who used to be able to be turned out with my other older intact males. But now he is not allowed to get away with any of the shananagans he used when he was 6 months old. The males are alot more serious with him now . So much that we dont turn him out with any of the males anymore. We are hoping to show him , so , to keep him in one piece , we turn him out with the females ( when not in season ) :rolleyes: My little boy isnt such a angel anymore , he has been showing interest in a female who is in heat . I just cant accept the fact that he is getting older and not my little bear cub anymore....sniff :D

 

Im not sure if it is true of dogs who are neutered though. I think they know he is intact and feel threatened or are maybe just simply jeleous ? But I can almost guarantee it plays a huge part in the growling issue .

 

The females also sense he is intact by scent and by his body posture. If it is a dominant female she might want to take the upper hand right from the getgo and let him know it by growling.

( just my unexpert opinions ) :D

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And obviously the eye contact goes along with the body posturing . Some of these things may not be as noticable to you when walking along side him or behind him. Too bad you couldnt get it on video , this way alot of your questions would be answered by just being able watch the behaviour between dogs. Maybe a friend can take a walk with you and tape it for you ? LOL...Good luck :rolleyes:

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I have to agree with Daisy although my reasoning may differ.

 

Our dog USE to be great with other dogs until we tried to stop him from reacting in what seemed an 'aggressive' manner - right around a year old. Because we tried to make him polite and not allow a growl to pass his lips we would correct him when he stood his ground. What we did was just shut down his ability to communicate in a way the other dogs could understand.

 

That's when we realized our mistake because instead of an appropriate growl he would just get tense and then lunge if provoked. In my opinion it would have been better to allow the response and still remove him from an escalating fight, but not shut down his natural response by correcting it. We've had to work intensely on re-building his self confidence and now he's improved immensely.

 

Keep looking for answers but consider the consequences of denying him 'his' language. We do expect more social behavior from our dogs today, but it doesn't make them communicate differently.

 

Side point - a local dog park in my area actually informs owners on the website that unneutered dogs are at greater risk of attracting unkind attention from neutered males and they should consider that before bringing them. Something to think about.

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Also- Daisy Duke or whoever can chime in.... Why would it be incorrect for us to do a leash correction if Shiloh bares his teeth at another dog who has growled at him. Our thinking is that we would prefer a non- reaction and for him to trust that we will step in. Maybe my thinking is not logical- but I would prefer that he took our lead, which is to ignore and walk away- leaving the other dog to be dealt with by his owner. I want to do what is best for Shiloh, so I would love to hear more about why our approach could cause future problems.

 

This is, of course, my own personal opinion on leash corrections. Take what you will from it. My dog, Daisy, is a reactive/fearful dog so I only use positive training methods because of her fearfulness and reactivity. My mindset behind this is that if you use a physical correction on a dog when he is growling, barking, lunging at another dog (in this case) you *could* end up teaching him that other dogs=pain/fear (from the correction) and in turn cause a worse reaction down the road.

 

For instance say your dog growls and lunges at one specific black lab all the time and you give him a leash pop every time he does it and then before you know it, the dog is out of site. Let's pretend that the leash pop actually hurts your dog (I'm not saying it does, but it could), so now every time your dog sees said black lab he thinks "oh no, that dog is coming, every time he comes near me, I get hurt. I have to bark at him so he goes away." He's thinking this because previously, he barks and lunges, feels pain and the dog goes away. Pretty soon your dog is generalizing the black lab to all black dogs, then all dogs of a certain size then all dogs. Now you have a leash aggressive dog.

 

Another downside to leash corrections for this sort of behaviour could be that your dog listens and obeys the corrections every time he growls, shows his teeth, lunges or barks. Next thing you know you have a dog who doesn't growl or bark when he's feeling stressed or like he has to defend himself. Now you have no way of telling when your dog is feeling stress. Growling, showing of teeth and barking are all pre-cursors to biting. If you take away all the indicators, the only thing you have left is the bite. So he could be out with another dog, who is bullying him or whatever, but you have no idea because he's not giving any warning signals that he is upset, one thing leads to another and you have a dog fight on your hands.

 

I'm not saying that this will happen to your dog, I'm saying it could happen and it has happened.

 

Dogs occasionally will snark at each other... that's the way life goes. I don't see any harm in it and it usually is a good indicator as to how future meetings will go between the two dogs. Learning to read a dogs body language has been one of the best things I could have ever done. Especially since I have a reactive dog and we house foster dogs frequently. My dogs body language is my key to how she's feeling and if I need to remove her from a situation. She's learning how to do it herself, but sometimes I still have to step in. If I would have corrected my dog every time she tried to tell me she was upset or worried about something I would have taken away her only way of communicating with me.

 

There is a lot of reading material out there on positive training and how to teach your dog that you won't let anything bad happen to him. There are a couple of good lists in the books section. I'm not a trainer, I've just had to work really hard to have a somewhat 'normal' dog and I've seen stuff like this backfire on totally well meaning owners.

 

good luck

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I agree that it could also be that he stares. He stares at everything and tries very hard to make eye contact with humans and animals... he walks with his head high and stares at everything, crouches and watches.... with the fixed pupil eye, like with the sheep.

 

I can only speak for my dog Buddy, but yup - he would get mightily pissed off at that hard staring. It's a massive trigger for him - from humans or dogs he doesn't know.

 

There is a dog, Jack, with very striking yellow eyes rimmed by black. We meet him at the park. Early on, he was maybe 12 months old. He would start staring at Buddy from 100 yards away when we met at the park, which would make Buddy growl from a distance. The owner was really good, and actually would break the stare by stepping in Jack's way, which seemed to cue Jack that he shouldn't dead-eye Buddy. Now they meet peacefully and even walk together sometimes. Mercifully, Jack also grew out of the adolescent-male stage, which always makes things calmer. There IS something about a maturing "teenager" that makes adult dogs more watchful, I think. (Not too different from humans - who often assume a group of teenagers hanging around can be up to no good!)

 

Mary

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I agree that it could also be that he stares. He stares at everything and tries very hard to make eye contact with humans and animals. It is one of the ways that we calm him down- no eye contact until he is calm once we get home. hmmm... and if a human makes eye contact with him outside or in the building he will trot over and sit beside them for a pat.....

 

We were also told that he is very confident- well our trainer said overly confident.... he is still shy and can be nervous of sounds, but he walks with his head high and stares at everything, crouches and watches.... with the fixed pupil eye, like with the sheep.

 

The body language you describe Shiloh using is incredibly rude canine language. The human equivilent would be akin to walking directly at a person who is your elder and superior, while baring your teeth or making an obscene gesture.

 

No adult dog would tolerate that. The growl is the polite response at this point. It's the canine "hey, wait a minute young fellow - you better rephrase that right now".

 

I'm amazed at the number of people who blame testicles for a normal response to what is in canine language an abnormal and/or badly behaved adolescent.

 

The dogs that are growling *are* well socialized in this response. They clearly understand that Shiloh is not behaving properly.

 

Socialization is about helping a dog learn what normal behavior is. How to play, what the "rules" are of polite society within the "pack" (human, canine, close, and extended). How to cope.

 

Socialization is *not*: "though shalt be a blind doormat for other dogs with issues"

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scomona - just another addition after re-reading your post. In the past Truman would react differently to males right around Shiloh's age yet he'd be extremly tolerant of the same dog at 5 or 6 months. I do think there is a bit of the adolecence issue where older dogs allow bravery in younger dogs but feel the need to 'nip in the bud' over confidence in teenagers.

 

Of course you need to protect Shiloh from harm, but maybe some association with some secure older dogs would help you to determine if he is indeed being too forward in his manner (including carriage and staring) and if the growls are not intended as threats but merely warnings to not be TOO forward in which case you may do more harm if he isn't taught this. Since he DID react with baring teeth or making a 'bitey face' it's possible that he's developing a threshold and pushing others at the same time.

 

Out of curiosity, are you comfortable with other dogs sorting things out, or do you feel that they should always play nice? I personally didn't like any show of aggression but now I'm comfortable with dogs teaching each other as long as the dogs are typically balanced and friendly together. I think it's actually good for them and have realized it never escalated like I worried about.

 

I'd definitely consider the possibility that he's just at that age and needs some mature socialization. I realize I'm repeating what Ms.DaisyDuke has said, but it's something to consider.

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Very good thought from Lenajo...

 

When I first started going to dog parks I was definitely of the "let the dogs sort it out" school of thought, but over the years, after having a couple of owners go off the air on me because my dog pinned back the ears of a few obstreperous youngsters (no harm done - just "Now see here you little brat!") I got much more conservative as to allowing the odd non-bloody squabble. Plus I encountered a few real bullies that were out of order and out of control.

 

It's true. If a male dog acts up it's nearly always blamed on his balls. I do it too. (And they do play their part.) But bitches can be overbearing and rude to other dogs as well. I think young dogs that rarely meet strangers off-lead can end up being rude out of sheer exuberance, and they never get told off properly by their elders so they don't learn better.

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This feedback is great... thank you so much!

 

Daisy Duke- Thanks for breaking it down for me... when you say it that way, I understand and agree... I do not want to silence his natural communication methods with us and will take that into consideration when a growl or bark happens.

 

I think I am fine with the dogs working it out on their own... Shiloh has been responsive to dogs that bark or growl if he approaches their ball or toy- he will walk away. Or if he prances up and gets a growl- he will try to play with another dog and ignore..... But I guess since that other dog bit him and made him bleed (and it felt like out of nowhere,but probably wasn't) I have been nervous. I had never seen him bare his teeth and once he did it that time- he has done it with a few other dogs that come towards him with growls.

 

Also- if his body language is so poor.... what can I do? Maybe I can see if his herding teacher can let him have time with her dogs? They seem to be balanced and well behaved...maybe they could correct him in a language that they understand- in a safe environment??

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Also- if his body language is so poor.... what can I do? Maybe I can see if his herding teacher can let him have time with her dogs? They seem to be balanced and well behaved...maybe they could correct him in a language that they understand- in a safe environment??

 

I would suggest some age appropriate play time and socialization. If it's your teachers dogs, that would be good. You can also try to find a really, really good facility that offers doggy day care. I'd interview the crap out of the places before I sent my dog to one though. They all look good on the internet! The one I would consider for my dog is at my training facility. They group the dogs in appropriate categories in separate play areas. In our situation Daisy would be placed with older, mellow dogs that are really good at reading other dogs body language. Because of her reactiveness, this would be much more ideal than a large room filled with crazy teenagers right?! That is what I really like about this place. Each dog has a different play style and each dog is carefully placed with a group of dogs they will be compatible with. The other place we occasionally train at just puts all the dogs in one room and lets them have at 'er. I don't trust those types of situations, things can get out of control to fast!

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I agree with DD that socialization with other, well-socialized dogs would help. Around that age, Odin wasn't very popular either. I tried to meet people in the neighborhood with dogs who could help us and who would tell him in no uncertain (but safe) terms when he was being a little a$$. Older, dominant bitches seemed to be especially good at this. I also consistantly got on his case for staring at other dogs and for stalking dogs, even from a distance.

 

At a little under 2 years the effort seems to have paid off nicely. Most other dogs really like him, and he's not into staring or stalking at all anymore. Sometimes now he is the one who tells rude and/or over enthusiastic youngsters dogs what's what. We just moved to an apt complex and what's really great is to see him make friends with so many of our neighbor dogs, especially little dogs! He used to try and "herd" little dogs, but now he is a favorite with several of the playful little guys we meet, even laying down to play bitey face better. He also is strangely a hit with intact males who usually don't tolerate other males.

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