Journey Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Mariji, try this link and it will give you more food for thought as to when to spay/neuter your pup - Early Spay Considerations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 MartySQ, You'll note that the person to whom you addressed your post is from Australia. While "desexing" might not be accurate terminology, it is common terminology in some regions of the world, and in fact was used in this country in the past. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted November 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 I've never had a neutered male that was anything less than I hoped he'd be and a great deal of unwanted behavior did not appear such as the compulsion to pee on every bush and pole, wanderlust, etc. All were healthy, strong dogs that had very good temperaments and retained some of that protective watchfulness and would give a deep "woof" if the situation required. They didn't seem appreciably different in size than intact males and all stayed in good health, though they were neutered at six months - one adopted dog was a year old, I think. Neutering is only a very small part of a dog's health and temperament, and frankly, I think they make a better dog. There's no reason to not neuter unless you expect to breed and the dog is worthy. To me the wanderlust is the biggest reason to neuter or spay. I don't want to lose a dog. Liz Hi Liz, are you saying that your dogs neutered at 6 months all became the same size as unneatured dogs? And that they still became as protective to their masters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted November 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Oh my gosh i know exactly what you mean. Many (and i mean alot!) of people accuse me of starving my poor dog. It just because where i live there are only fat dogs. My girl is 17.4 kg's and shouldn't go over 18. When you pat him you should be able to feel all his bones. As horrible as this sounds i mean them not protruding out like emaciated. I go by my girls pelvic bones, so if i can feel them enough then she's great. When she's walking i should be able to see where her pelvic bones are (keep in mind she has a medium/flat coat). She also is very muscular in her legs and neck. So just tell someone blankly if they say your dog is too skinny that theres is fat. How about that, i'd love to see the look on their faces..... Sam is a smooth coated and therefore he looks super slim, but not skinny, as you say you can feel his bones when you stroke him but they are not visible, i leave him a large bowl of dried food out all day and he eats continously throughout the day and even has the odd treat from our plates each day but is still super-slim, probably due to the 5-7 miles bike riding/running he does with me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted November 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 My wife took Sam into the vets this morning, i am collecting him at between 16:00-17:00hrs, my wife emailed me this morning when she got into work and said that she took Sam into the vets this morning and the first thing he did was cock his leg up the bin in the waiting room and peed all over the bin! She said that having his nuts cut off will be for the best, but by the sounds of posts in this thread its not going to eradicate the problem? This morning you could put down to nerves, as somebody else has posted within this thread as being a possible cause. However, the peeding up the old ladies in the park that were sitting on their deck chairs whilst i was talking to them and then that man the other day in the park, i was standing there talking to him and Sam walked around the back of him and cocked his leg and peed up his jeans, they are not nervous situations are they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 However, the peeding up the old ladies in the park that were sitting on their deck chairs whilst i was talking to them and then that man the other day in the park, i was standing there talking to him and Sam walked around the back of him and cocked his leg and peed up his jeans, they are not nervous situations are they? No, to me it sounds like a dog who needs to learn better manners. That may be easier without the testosterone pumping through his system. But either way, he is a smart dog and can learn where and when not to pee. Hope all goes well with the surgery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted November 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 No, to me it sounds like a dog who needs to learn better manners. That may be easier without the testosterone pumping through his system. But either way, he is a smart dog and can learn where and when not to pee. Hope all goes well with the surgery. He is a very smart dog, and is very controllable (apart from peeing up people) however he is also very proud and confident.... When i take him out he will stand in the middle of the park with his head/nose pointing up to the sky, back arched, tail curled right over his back with the white bushy bit on the end curled right over..... However, when i go through the country with him on my bike, there is a field with horses in with an un-marked footpath through the field, the horses are held in by a thin metal wire about 2-3ft high, the wire has 2 x car batteries at one end attached with leads to this wire (electric fence) Sam went into prey drive when he see these horses, started to approach the horses with his tail tucked right between his legs, head and back pointing towards the ground, ears pricked up, and staring continously at the horses on his approach, i called him off, and he recalled immediately, luckily as i said because of the electric fence. He is like a jackle and hyde, one minute confident with his tail over his back, next minute in herding pose with tail between the legs, both poses he looks like a different dog each time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 You do know that Sam's peeing on people and inappropriate objects is your fault though don't you? Having him neutered will not stop this, you having him on lead or next to you (and paying attention to him) and not "allowing" this behavior will. So far it sounds as though he's learned it's all right to behave this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Mariji, try this link and it will give you more food for thought as to when to spay/neuter your pup - Early Spay Considerations And a rebuttal pointing out the flaws in Chris Zink's article. http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Docum...Rebuttal%20.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 However, the peeding up the old ladies in the park that were sitting on their deck chairs whilst i was talking to them and then that man the other day in the park, i was standing there talking to him and Sam walked around the back of him and cocked his leg and peed up his jeans, they are not nervous situations are they? It isn't just a case of whether a specific situation is causing anxiety. If a dog is in any way anxious about the world around it, scent marking can make it feel more secure. Having a neutered terrier that cocks his leg frequently, I agree with the posters who are on the side of manners. I've learned to be aware of what he is up to and too prevent it. When i take him out he will stand in the middle of the park with his head/nose pointing up to the sky, back arched, tail curled right over his back with the white bushy bit on the end curled right over..... That description doesn't indicate either confidence or lack of it. My severely neurotic and fearful hound x does just that (apart from back arching) when he gets wind of a scent. A confident stance can also be put on by a dog that is feeling anything but in an attempt to deflect a perceived threat - viz said terrier (and virtually any terrier you are likely to meet). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 And a rebuttal pointing out the flaws in Chris Zink's article. http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Docum...Rebuttal%20.pdf THANKS for that article. I've never been a fan of CZ after she misdiagnosed my Casey girl (and was cocky about the other vet I consulted being wrong even though CZ was the one in the wrong). Glad someone is calling her out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scomona Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 You do know that Sam's peeing on people and inappropriate objects is your fault though don't you? Having him neutered will not stop this, you having him on lead or next to you (and paying attention to him) and not "allowing" this behavior will. So far it sounds as though he's learned it's all right to behave this way. How would this be corrected? Im just curious since Shiloh has started marking tree's etc....( but he doesn't lift his leg). He used to just pee once at the beginning of the walk and still does- but adds extra pee's on areas that he sniffs excessively. If it escalates to inappropriate objects (like people, or bikes or the house etc) what would a good correction be? A leash correction and firm no- or his correction sound and something stronger if it happens again? Is there a way to prevent it in the first place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 And a rebuttal pointing out the flaws in Chris Zink's article. http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Docum...Rebuttal%20.pdf Yes, thank you for that information! I have always thought the Zink article seemed heavily one-sided. It is really good to see such a thorough review of what Zink gets right and what has been really misrepresented from the primary literature to support a personal opinion. While I still wish I hadn't been pushed into early neuter by my vet at the time, more of what he was presented to me as benefits make sense now. Information presented accurately is a really valuable thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted November 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 You do know that Sam's peeing on people and inappropriate objects is your fault though don't you? Having him neutered will not stop this, you having him on lead or next to you (and paying attention to him) and not "allowing" this behavior will. So far it sounds as though he's learned it's all right to behave this way. Firstly, that is one of the most rediculous statements i have ever heard.... Are you advising me not to engage in conversation with any other human whilst walking my dog? If this is the case then you must be a very anti-social person to even consider such a thing.... Sam would have peed on those people regardless of him being on or off the lead, it was very spontaneous, end of, and due to me being a social person i was speaking to those people at the time of the event and therefore was not watching his every action. Sam was corrected exactly the same off the lead as he would have been on the lead. Maybe if i had the response of an electron, then quite possibly i could have prevented it. Sam has made 2 mistakes like this in the year of his life. He has been off the lead 98% of the time for the entire year and has learnt boundaries and how to be safe, knows that he must use footpaths, must not walk in the road, or near the edge of the footpath. You may think that he has learnt bad habbits by being off the lead, however the benefits of him being off that lead have far outweighed the benefits of him being on the lead. Only the other day in the park another dog walker commented on Sams recall, i gave him two sharp whisles and he immediately turned around in the opposite direction to which he was running and sprinted back to me and sat in front of me looking up at me. The other dog owner then came up to me and asked how i trained him to do that...... Secondly, i haven't just got Sam neutered because of him peeing up people. My wife has wanted him neutered for some time due to the possibility of him humping people and objects in the future, and also i wouldn't like to think that there could in the future be the possibility that whilst he enjoys a lot of time with me when i'm in the garden working and he is off the lead, that he could stray if he smells the sent of a bitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted November 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Sam is now home, i collected him earlier, he was VERY drowsy and his head kept dropping and his eyes were closing. He has come around a lot more now, he is a lot more awake, however he does appear to be a lot quieter...... I hope he doesn't stay that way...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 He has come around a lot more now, he is a lot more awake, however he does appear to be a lot quieter...... I hope he doesn't stay that way...... That's the anesthesia. He'll probably be quiet (and should be quiet) tonight. I'm sure the vet gave you instructions on post op care. By tomorrow morning, he should be much more himself and full recovery is usually quite quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Sam is now home, i collected him earlier, he was VERY drowsy and his head kept dropping and his eyes were closing. He has come around a lot more now, he is a lot more awake, however he does appear to be a lot quieter...... I hope he doesn't stay that way...... I just had to respond - he's on sedatives, probably painkillers too, and he's just had surgery! Of course he's going to be quiet - count your blessings because you need to watch his stitches/incision over the next few days. The anesthesia will take a day or so to completely wear off. My dog is excitable, drivey, and so full of energy I wish I could bottle some for myself. And neutered. He can run rings around any other dog we meet. It doesn't make them fat and lethargic, I promise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted November 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 How would this be corrected? Im just curious since Shiloh has started marking tree's etc....( but he doesn't lift his leg). He used to just pee once at the beginning of the walk and still does- but adds extra pee's on areas that he sniffs excessively. If it escalates to inappropriate objects (like people, or bikes or the house etc) what would a good correction be? A leash correction and firm no- or his correction sound and something stronger if it happens again? Is there a way to prevent it in the first place? By 'apparently' not speaking to people and keeping your dog on a 3 inch lead.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted November 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Shetlander/Ooky, i'll trust you, i took him out for a gentle stroll earlier and he found another stick and carried it all the way back home, so it doesn't look like its affected his boyishness P.S. Without being too rude, his bag is still there, although a lot smaller and flatter, i've heard that the skin shrinks and it all dissapears eventually? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 You may want to avoid even a gentle stroll at the moment. Walk on a leash to potty and back, and that is it. I had Nick neutered back in the summer and since he was older he had quite the developed sac. It has indeed shrunk, but it's still there. For the first few days it was still somewhat swolen - almost looked initially like he hadn't been neutered. Since your dog is considerably younger his may shrink to the point that you cannot see it, or it may not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samsonsworld Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 i've heard that the skin shrinks and it all dissapears eventually? Pretty much, yep. Did on mine...err my dog's that is. Even after having him fixed though, he still wanted to pee on the female's head. Instrincts are a funny thing. You may have to keep that dog on a short leash...or only talk to little old ladies that you can outrun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejano Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Hi Liz, are you saying that your dogs neutered at 6 months all became the same size as unneatured dogs? And that they still became as protective to their masters? Yes, this was back in the days before discussion of growth plates, etc. and the biggest concern was controlling the hormonal wandering urge with the farm dogs and house pets. A dog's protectiveness, at least in my opinion, has nothing to do with reproductive hormones, and everything to do with how "property minded" the dog feels. Today, I wouldn't want a house dog that felt a very strong urge to protect the property or me, because to me (again, my opinion) that means that the dog doesn't trust me enough to take care of him or her and that attitude could possibly lead to aggression issues. Nor do I want an alarmist, a dog that goes charging at the door barking its fool head off every time the doorbell rings. I just want a watchful dog that will give just one nice deep woof when someone pulls into the driveway in the middle of the night. and I don't know it. Funny story -- my husband was repairing on old barn on a retired farmer's property. All day long he carried tools into the barn and the old Border Collie laid there watching him, even let him pet him and feed him treats. When Ken started to carry the tools out of the barn, the dog sat in front of the door and without even growling, let it be known that Ken wouldn't be getting past him. Ken laid down the tools, and the dog let him pass to get the owner, who called him aside so Ken could remove his tools. That's the kind of protection money can't buy Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 By 'apparently' not speaking to people and keeping your dog on a 3 inch lead.... BCS, Instead of responding like a petulant child, how about taking the advise as it was intended? If your dog lifts his leg on undesirable objects then it really is *your* job to stop him/correct him for doing so. No, he doesn't need to be on a 3-inch lead and you don't have to give up talking to people. Dogs who are about to mark things give off signals about what they're getting ready to do, so even while you're socializing with another human you can pay attention to Sam's signals and stop him before he gets a chance to mark another human. If he understands a verbal correction, then it's relatively simple: a short, sharp "no" just as he's thinking of lifting his leg will generally work quite well. Now that he's done this twice, it really *is* your responsibility to pay attention and make sure it doesn't happen a third time. My young male did that once to a good friend of mine. I was busy chatting with her and not paying one bit of attention to him. I was mortified, and you can bet I watched him much more closely thereafter to make sure he never did it again. What the folks you're now making fun of were actually saying is that *you* control his behavior and the fact that he marked inappropriately more than once is your fault, not his. You can certainly teach him that humans are not appropriate objects for marking. As for his quietness, it's the result of anesthesia and pain meds as others have said. Please, please, please follow your vet's instructions and do not overdo it with him while he recovers from surgery. Not being careful while he heals could result in a return trip to the vet, or worse. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 ^^^ What Julie said. To scomona, I have one male that will mark inappropriately if I'm not quick on the draw. If I can see he's *thinking* about it I'll give him a verbal correction. If he's not already committed to doing it he'll stop (not much stops this dog if he's committed to action). That may be enough for your dog - correction as he's thinking about it. I think he tried to pee on a human once when he was younger - I think he tried to mark on Brenda (ourboys). She fortunately corrected him and so did I, and then I kept a good eye on him for a while after that and nipped it before he could do it again. Since then it's been a non-issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted November 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 BCS,Instead of responding like a petulant child, how about taking the advise as it was intended? If your dog lifts his leg on undesirable objects then it really is *your* job to stop him/correct him for doing so. No, he doesn't need to be on a 3-inch lead and you don't have to give up talking to people. Dogs who are about to mark things give off signals about what they're getting ready to do, so even while you're socializing with another human you can pay attention to Sam's signals and stop him before he gets a chance to mark another human. If he understands a verbal correction, then it's relatively simple: a short, sharp "no" just as he's thinking of lifting his leg will generally work quite well. Now that he's done this twice, it really *is* your responsibility to pay attention and make sure it doesn't happen a third time. My young male did that once to a good friend of mine. I was busy chatting with her and not paying one bit of attention to him. I was mortified, and you can bet I watched him much more closely thereafter to make sure he never did it again. What the folks you're now making fun of were actually saying is that *you* control his behavior and the fact that he marked inappropriately more than once is your fault, not his. You can certainly teach him that humans are not appropriate objects for marking. As for his quietness, it's the result of anesthesia and pain meds as others have said. Please, please, please follow your vet's instructions and do not overdo it with him while he recovers from surgery. Not being careful while he heals could result in a return trip to the vet, or worse. J. Instead of responding like a person with no sense of humour, how about taking the comment how it was intended? I know, Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit Honestly, i know how a dog normally gives off signals before marking, as have had many dogs in the past, i.e., the inquisative sniff, body movement, direct approach etc., however none of you were present at the scene and on each occasion it was literally an uninterested stroll with head in the air and then all of a sudden a quick cock leg and wee........he is quite a crafty dog, even though i love him to bits and he has a lovely personality, he is crafty, especially when food is about... He even did it today in the vets up a bin with my wife! She didn't even see it coming.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.