Advice needed on adopting a mill dog

[HoosierMike]

I need some guidance on this topic, and I know that many of

you here have been through it many times. I can't seem to get

this dog outta my head, he's one of the Swafford dogs that made

it here to Indiana a few weeks back. The people at the rescue

where he is says he has come quite a ways since he arrived. He

still has that wild look in his eye, but something deeper makes

me think he's got promise. He's supposedly at least 4 years old,

and maybe older. I haven't gotten anywhere close to the point

of introducing him to my dogs that I have already. I haven't

actually gotten to the point where I can't say no to him yet either.

It's a very big decision going from two to three dogs, and

especially with one that I know is going to take years of work.

I have a 3 yo female and a 9 mo. old male now, both are very

well behaved, and training on the pup is going very well. I just don't

know if this is the right time to bring in another. I've thought

about asking to volunteer at the shelter a few nights a week to work

directly with him, but I know if I do, and he shows promise, I'm doomed.

 

So, I guess I'm asking for advice from those who know. Am I looking for

trouble? Success stories, horror stories, failed foster stories, anything

is more than welcome.

He is in no danger where he is, but I know that a better environment

couldn't hurt. We have plenty of time, space and resources for him,

and like I said in the beginning of this ramble, I can't get him outta

my head...

Mike

[MicheleS.]

Oh wow, my heart says get him. ha

I know others here will have much more to offer than me, I can only speak from my own experience. When we went from 2 to 3 dogs, it was a notable change. Specifically in the way of $ for vet, food, etc. I also worried that I would have time for all 3. And yes, it did get a little hectic while they were all younger making sure they all got enough attention, exercise, playtime. I also train and compete in competition obedience so 2 were attending classes at the same time and then I got hooked on agility. It was alot of *doggie time* for me. But it was all okay because that's what I enjoy, that's how I relax.

I did not take the decision lightly and really mulled it over for a good long time. Personally, I don't regret adding a 3rd.

Now that I'm down to 2, (it hasn't been long) I'm kind of feeling like I want to enjoy the 2 (maybe it's just too soon to know). However, if something presented itself or was dropped on my doorstep, I wouldn't hesitate to add a 3rd again

Yes, it is a big decision to add a 3rd and I know you'll get great input from others and you'll make the right decision no matter what.

 

Good luck.

 

Michele

& Gypsy

& Chase

[BustopherJones]

Wouldn't it be nice if, in life, everything had a clear-cut answer? I doubt that there is anyone on this board who would go to a pet store and buy a puppy, knowing that the dog probably came from a puppy mill. If you asked us where to get a dog, we would all tell you to go to a reputable dealer or to adopt a dog from rescue. But what happens when the line gets blurred? What if that dog in the rescue arena came from a puppy mill? My vet would disown me if I ever bought a puppy mill dog from a pet store; but if it came from a rescue, she would treat it the way she has lovingly treated all our dogs over the years.

 

So it boils down to this: there is no absolute, unequivocal right answer to your question. Everyone who gives you advice on this topic will be in uncertain territory. My advice? Do what your heart tells you is the right thing to do. You might want to read this as input to your decision: Adopting A Puppy Mill Survivor. Good luck!

[Root Beer]

It might not be a bad idea to ask to work with him. I think that if you get to know him, you will have a better idea as to whether or not you should consider adopting.

[aljones]

Hi, Mike. I'll look forward to reading replies to your question, too, since my own move from 2 to 3 dogs was more accidental (foster failure) than thought out. It will be interesting to see other people's perspectives on the issue.

 

My initial reaction, though, is that this particular situation is less about going from 2 to 3 dogs and more about whether or not this particular dog would be a good addition to your family at this time. I have lived with a Swafford dog for the last 11 months, and I can tell you that he has been an even bigger project than I anticipated. However, I have met several of the other Swafford dogs as they've passed through area shelters, and I have seen a very wide range of behaviors, personalities, and potential "issues." So, without first-hand experience with this particular dog, I don't think you have enough information to decide how to proceed.

 

Also, I think it's important to consider how much support you would receive from the rescue if you adopt the dog and then encounter challenges that you need help meeting. What is the system the rescue has both to place dogs well and then to help their new families during the initial adjustment period and beyond? I am genuinely asking, as I don't know anything about this organization except for what I read in news stories after the bust. But I will admit that I have some concerns about so many of the Swafford dogs ending up at a non-BC-specific rescue.

 

I guess my advice, then, boils down to finding out more, both about the dog (through spending time with him) and the rescue (through continuing to talk to the folks there). I think you need to gather quite a bit more information before you'll be ready to decide what to do next.

 

Good luck!

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I only have one dog and I only foster one additional dog at a time, so I can't help you in the 3 dog category at all. I have read lots of stories on mill dogs, I'm a member of a couple fearful dog groups and quite a few of those dogs are mill rescues. Similar to the Swafford situation. There is a wide variety of issues that I have read about. I mean having a fearful dog is one thing but having a dog who will not come near you for 6 months is another. My current foster dog is like the later, it's really heart breaking and hard on me to see this poor dog sitting 6ft away from me crying because he want's to come over so bad, but just can't. I agree with Kristine and perhaps you should really consider working with the rescue/shelter and him one on one to see exactly what is problems are or aren't and how bad he really is and if he could really work with your dogs and home situation. Would they potentially let you foster him? That is if he's not already in a foster home....the difference between a dog in a cage, who's always been in a cage and that dog in a home, who's never been in a home can also vary greatly.

[Eileen Stein]

I agree with Root Beer. As Angie says, there's a wide range of behaviors, personalities and potential issues in the Swafford dogs. As some of you may know, I went through the Swafford kennel several years ago, as an investigator for the ABCA. That involved directly handling the dogs, as we were taking DNA samples from them. Some of them I wouldn't hesitate to take -- in fact, I still think often of one in particular whom I wish I could have taken. Others would be more problematic, and some I would not have considered adoptable. I've also been in touch with a number of people who have gotten dogs from Swafford, some as pups and some as older dogs that had been used for years as breeders. Those I've talked to who adopted the older dogs have not been sorry -- they generally say the dogs have come a long way and seem so happy and grateful that it's very satisfying to them. So I think you really would have to get to know this particular dog a little more, and if you can see the dog fitting in with your home and your other dogs, it wouldn't be a bad thing to find yourself "doomed."

 

If you know any details about the dog, feel free to PM me -- the odds are not high that I would have specific info about him, but it's possible.

[Shetlander]

On moving from 2 to 3 dogs, this is my experience. In normal day to day life around the house, I don't find 3 dogs more difficult than 2. Based on when I've had a visiting dog, I don't think I'd find 4 that big of a jump either. It's when I leave the house that 3 dogs becomes much more of a challenge than two. If I go out of town for an overnight or long weekend, I either have to take 3 dogs with (which few people are willing to put up with) or make arrangements for someone (or a couple someones since my boys can be problematic with each other) to watch them. Leaving them behind is generally more relaxing for me but costs money. Vet care and feeding also run more than you thought they would. You think you understand this, but it can really hit you in the face at times. If you have a bad year where all the dogs have significant issues (that happened to me in 2007), you could be talking lots of money.

 

Everyone's situation is different. As a single person, I don't have in-home "back-up" but am fortunate to have a very good support network (some free, some not) that helps me out as needed. At this point, as much as I love having dogs, while I would not rule out having 3 (or more) dogs in the future, I think I will stay at two when one of current dogs passes away. It will just make life a little easier and less expensive. Then again, my dogs bring me so much happiness that I'd never say never, especially if that special dog came along.

[urge to herd]

Having had 3 and now having 2, I don't think we'll do 3 dogs again. Of course, we also had 2 cats, now just 1, at the same time. And all in basically the same age group.

 

What Liz said about costs piling up is true, and I think pretty much one of those things you have to experience to understand. 2008 was our Year of the Vet, between 2 elderly cats, 1 dog with osteosarcoma, 1 dog with recurring UTIs, and 1 dog with allergies/arthritis, we spent well over $10,000. In addition to the financial costs, there are the emotional and energetic costs of being hyper vigilant to every sigh, twitch or burp coming out of 5 critters.

 

I think in one 5 day period in August of 2008, I took Buzz to the vet 2x, Shonie 2x, and one of the cats 1x. We joked about us just having a standing appointment.

 

However, I'm also aware is that life happens to us while we're making other plans. I wouldn't give up one minute that we had with Buzz, or any of them, really.

 

Ruth

[Maralynn]

My 2 cents... I just went from 2 dogs to 3 and #3 really keeps me on my toes. I work and am in school so I'm constantly rotating dogs in and out of the car to take them along to work during breaks. It was a huge jump to go from two dogs who are well trained with the routine down to three where one needs a lot of work. Once she gets into the routine and matures a little it won't be as hard, but right now it's work!

 

Of course, it would make a difference if you work from home and you get an older dog. But your youngster is still going to need lots of structure and training for the next year. So you could potentially have 2 dogs who needs lots of one on one work. Is this something that you realistically have time for and can handle?

 

Another thing to consider is if you will be able to deal with 3 dogs reaching their senior years in quick succession. Vet costs will probably be a bit higher, as will the potential for heartbreak.

 

My personal preference is wait until my current dog(s) are pretty much fully trained and to space my dogs out with at least a few years in between them (I currently have a 10.5 y/o an almost 5 y/o and a 11 m/o).

 

These are just some things to think about - obviously there is no one size fits all solution.

[ejano]

Back in the quiet days of having just one BC, we (that is, I) decided that two would be better than one. We adopted a dog that had been rescued from the vet's office where he had been taken to be put to sleep for behavioral problems...aggression toward his owners. Thankfully the behavioral specialist recognized that it was the owners who had the problem and not the dog and he became my very best friend.. We already had one dog and two border collies seems about right for my household.

 

When we lost him, we signed up for a pup and that's when things spiraled out of control . We currently have three - our original, who is now 8 yrs old and two pups and I echo Marilyn's experience..rotating them for training and special trips takes a great deal of time and effort, as well as expense. Even dog food adds up and boarding if you want to go on vacation is more expensive than a hotel room (Not that good care isn't worth it). I probably wouldn't ever have more than two at one time again, if I could get them at the right age span (3 - 4 years apart ) to lesson the odds of dealing with the horrible heartbreak of losing two good friends at the same time again.

 

But if you like the dog, have the time and space for it, and are aware of some potential issues, no reason not to....do you think the dog will get on well with your crew because he's been part of such a large group? What do the foster/rescue people say?Where do you think the "wild" look is coming from? Has he demonstrated any issues that you might not want to deal with? Has he been vetted? What is his general health?

 

Liz

[herdcentral]

I have a 9 yo a rising 3 yo and a rising 2yo and about to add a new pup. They do agility, obedience and one day sheep work for the new dog. Lots of time is consumed in training and I insure 2 of them for major vet expenses. There are no issues and they are very easy to manage dogs.

 

I did however have a dog with serious fear issues from a puppy mill and she took probably 80% of my training and management time. She was a bigger committment than all my other dogs put together.

 

My mother has an ex breeding dog from a puppy mill adopted at age 7. She has a range of reletively minor issues and my mum spends more time with her than her other dog but she is a wonderful dog. She has learnt to relax with other dogs and loves the grandkids, so for mum she worked out well.

 

It is a very difficult question to answer and you probably need to get to know the dog better. My mum took a leap of faith with her rescue and it worked out.

 

I did the same and it was very very hard work although I learnt a lot! The most important thing was that my fearful one got on well with the family and family dogs where she felt safe, despite being a potential nightmare in public. I would not liked to have had to deal with serious issues within the family structure.

[juliepoudrier]

Well I have 10, so I guess I'm not a good one to advise anyone on why not three....

 

J.

[Liz P]

I always tell people the same thing, going from 2 to 3 is going from a pair to a pack. It's a different mindset and way of life.

 

You have 2 hands so can handle 2 leashes. Three can be tough, even impossible in some situations. This means rotating dogs when you go to places like pet stores and the vet. Even though I own 5 dogs I rarely take more than 1 along to run errands.

 

If you are renting many landlords have a 2 dog limit.

 

Hotels often limit to 2 dogs (sometimes just 1). Travel in general is a lot more difficult with more than 2 dogs.

 

Sometimes 2 dogs will pair up and the other dog will be the odd man out.

[bcnewe2]

I'm with Julie

They're like potatoe chips....one is just not going to cut it!

I have 3 bc's and 2 LGD's another senior on his way and am looking for another pup.

Vetting can get ya when things go wrong but so can doctor bills and everyday life sometimes. I do normal vetting at home (worming, shots and small issues) only take them when they really need to go. I don't have to use heartworm prevention at the moment (vet says there's no need out here) but when I do I use Ivermec so that's not an issue for me either) I think the biggest expense I have is flea treatmeant but again out here that isn't necessary. I also don't do the yearly heartworm test unless I feel I wasn't reliable on prevention and there's a reason. I just don't do many/any wellness vet visits.

I am not one to rush a dog off to the vet for a limp or a booboo unless I don't see improvement. If a dog need antibiotics I can go to the vet and pick up meds. No office visits. I haven't always done this but got tired of paying for vet bills where they weren't able to do anything so it's what we've grown into.

THere really is never a time where I don't want so many dogs. After 1 they all seem about the same.

I guess the one thing different here is I'm not working and when I was, I worked at home so I am here with them most of the time, no worries about them getting enough attention.

 

I was just thinking the other day about how hard a time I'm having adjusting to my new enviroment and how much worse off I'd be without my dogs around to keep me smiling.

 

So I say if you can do it and the dogs all get along...why not?

[HoosierMike]

I thank everyone here for responding to my questions. You folks

never cease to amaze me with all the knowledge and help that

you put forth. I'm not going to try to respond to every quote that

I've found helpful, partly because I'm not that computer literate,

but mostly because there is so much great information here that

I'd have quote boxes from here til Friday.

After reading your responses, and talking at great lengths with my

wife, you know where this is going, no just kidding, she's very

supportive in dog related adventures, I've decided to stay undecided,

at least in the mindset that I can't get him out of my head.

I am going to go spend some one on one time with him at the shelter

tomorrow evening. I'm hoping that there will be some defining answers

to my questions regarding him as "the" dog that I am willing to take on.

In regards to some of the helpful info brought forth here, I do realize

that 3 compared to 2 is a lot more work, and I should be concentrating

on our pup for the time being. He is actually more bonded with my wife

and she does the majority of one on one work with him. Not that I don't,

but that little guy has turned into a momma's boy.

When it comes to vet care and costs, we are actually very lucky in that

department. My wife works at a vet clinic, as does my oldest son, and we

get discounts on almost every aspect of care. That helps out immensely.

Now, any unforseen injuries are of course going to be a major expense

regardless.

I guess, after reading all of your posts, and some things that I have

written or thought myself, I'm wondering if I just have that " I can try

and save them all" mentality. I suppose that it isn't a bad way to think,

but is it thinking clearly?

Anyway, I'm going to approach this very cautiously and carefully think it

through. Thank you again for your responses and I'll have more news after

I see him tomorrow night.

Mike

[Sue R]

I sure can't add anything very worthwhile to the excellent advice and ideas put forward here. I can say that the one Swafford youngster (older pup, maybe 10 months or so) that I met had come from Swafford through his truck-driving relative to a family in WV. This youngster was totally terrified, covered with fleas, and so on.

 

But the little guy bonded really fast to his new family, who treated him gently and kindly. It took him longer to trust other folks (like me) who didn't live with him but he did trust and show a great deal of "appreciation" for the folks who loved him and wanted to make life good for him.

 

If you do adopt because it's right for you and your present dogs, you will be making a very positive change in this dog's life. Get acquainted, and see what happens!

[aljones]

Glad to hear your update, Mike, and looking forward to learning more about this dog after you've had a chance to hang out with him!

[pansmom]

Glad to hear the update, and thanks for considering to adopt one of these dogs, it's so noble. Keep us posted! Personally, I must admit, I hope the dog turns out to be THE dog, and you fall in love. But of course if he or she has too many major issues, with your current situation, I'm sure everyone will understand if this particular dog is not THE dog at this time. You know?

[ejano]

I thank everyone here for responding to my questions. You folks

never cease to amaze me with all the knowledge and help that

you put forth. I'm not going to try to respond to every quote that

I've found helpful, partly because I'm not that computer literate,

but mostly because there is so much great information here that

I'd have quote boxes from here til Friday.

After reading your responses, and talking at great lengths with my

wife, you know where this is going, no just kidding, she's very

supportive in dog related adventures, I've decided to stay undecided,

at least in the mindset that I can't get him out of my head.

I am going to go spend some one on one time with him at the shelter

tomorrow evening. I'm hoping that there will be some defining answers

to my questions regarding him as "the" dog that I am willing to take on.

In regards to some of the helpful info brought forth here, I do realize

that 3 compared to 2 is a lot more work, and I should be concentrating

on our pup for the time being. He is actually more bonded with my wife

and she does the majority of one on one work with him. Not that I don't,

but that little guy has turned into a momma's boy.

When it comes to vet care and costs, we are actually very lucky in that

department. My wife works at a vet clinic, as does my oldest son, and we

get discounts on almost every aspect of care. That helps out immensely.

Now, any unforseen injuries are of course going to be a major expense

regardless.

I guess, after reading all of your posts, and some things that I have

written or thought myself, I'm wondering if I just have that " I can try

and save them all" mentality. I suppose that it isn't a bad way to think,

but is it thinking clearly?

Anyway, I'm going to approach this very cautiously and carefully think it

through. Thank you again for your responses and I'll have more news after

I see him tomorrow night.

Mike

 

There's something to be said about your statement. regarding your attraction to this particular dog....After all is said and done, maybe this dog is for you...my husband spotted our Lucky girl (BC Mix) on a pound puppy video on the local cable channel and just knew he had to have her....which we did, for almost fourteen years.

 

Liz

[HoosierMike]

Well, I had the opportunity to spend some one on one with him. All

I can say is that I'm torn as ever. He's a wonderful dog. He's just so

scared and confused as to what's going on. When I first approached him,

he layed down tight to the ground. Within two minutes, he was climbing

into my lap. And that's where he would stay as long as I would let him.

He appears a bit older than 4-5, but not into his senior years by any stretch.

His teeth are a bit worn, but not terrible. He let me look into his mouth with

no problems at all. Also, I touched his ears, feet, belly, all with nothing more

than a sigh coming from him. He's still very skinny,but his coat looks good,

other than the patches where the mats were cut out. The "wild" look that I

thought I saw, appeared as more of a sorrowful look of not knowing what

is happening to him. It killed me to walk away from him....

 

After reading all the pros and cons, and thinking of how he would fit into our

situation, I can't bring him into our home right now. I feel terrible. My thoughts

are that he needs a special person to bond with that can give him all the attention

that he needs. I can't, at this time, spend that much time on one dog, when he

would be one of three. I don't think it would be fair to any of them.

He's the first dog I actually said "I'm sorry" to as I left the shelter. I know he's

in no danger, but I wish I could help him. He's a good boy.

Again, thank you all for all your help and support.

Mike

[Jumpin Boots]

Mike

You should feel bad about making the right decision for yourself, family, and pack right now. You know better than anyone else what you can handle right now, and I think you probably ended up making the harder decision to not add the dog to your pack, it's very easy to get quickly attached and hope it works out.

 

When I saw your last post, I wasn't going to reply regarding my input on a puppy mill dog, but maybe I'll just go ahead anyway. We have been fostering 2 puppy mill/hoarder mini aussies since the middle of January and unfortunately for them they will not be moving past foster point anytime soon, they are still in the court system. All of our personal dogs (4) are rescues, one was adopted at 8 weeks, 2 at 10 months and one at about 7 years. I figured we had dealt with our fair share if 'issues' that come along with rescue dogs...I had no clue. The first month the mini aussies were nervous and scared, always happy to see us, but very leary and untrusting. The next 5 or so months were great, the dogs were sweet, loving, tried to be obedient, wanting to be with us, and got along swimmingly. Well, apparently that was the honey moon period which is now over, they are still very sweet and want attention and affection, but are now picking fights with each other and our dogs, there were behaviors that we thought they were in the process of outgrowing which continue popping back up; I'm beginning to think that some of these past behaviors will never go away. I do think that someday these dogs will fit into a normal home, but the person who takes either of them on is going to have to have a ton of time, be very dedicated and they will probably never be 'normal' dogs.

Julie

[HoosierMike]

Mike

You should feel bad about making the right decision for yourself, family, and pack right now. You know better than anyone else what you can handle right now, and I think you probably ended up making the harder decision to not add the dog to your pack, it's very easy to get quickly attached and hope it works out.

 

When I saw your last post, I wasn't going to reply regarding my input on a puppy mill dog, but maybe I'll just go ahead anyway. We have been fostering 2 puppy mill/hoarder mini aussies since the middle of January and unfortunately for them they will not be moving past foster point anytime soon, they are still in the court system. All of our personal dogs (4) are rescues, one was adopted at 8 weeks, 2 at 10 months and one at about 7 years. I figured we had dealt with our fair share if 'issues' that come along with rescue dogs...I had no clue. The first month the mini aussies were nervous and scared, always happy to see us, but very leary and untrusting. The next 5 or so months were great, the dogs were sweet, loving, tried to be obedient, wanting to be with us, and got along swimmingly. Well, apparently that was the honey moon period which is now over, they are still very sweet and want attention and affection, but are now picking fights with each other and our dogs, there were behaviors that we thought they were in the process of outgrowing which continue popping back up; I'm beginning to think that some of these past behaviors will never go away. I do think that someday these dogs will fit into a normal home, but the person who takes either of them on is going to have to have a ton of time, be very dedicated and they will probably never be 'normal' dogs.

Julie

Thanks, Julie, for your story. Much of what you say is exactly the thoughts

that went through my mind. While this particular dog showed no signs of

outright bad behavior, some of the females at the same shelter showed

some real Jeckyll and Hyde personalities. One second laying quietly, then

another dog would walk by and bam. I was told that he was probably going

to have to be the only male in a pack, although at the time, he didn't act

aggressive in any form.

I can't fathom the thought of purposely putting my young male into any type

of situation where he might be hurt. Someday, maybe, the right match will

come along. Until then, my two are just fine.

 

I don't know if this link will work, but this is the dog I've been writing

about, I still think in the right hands he could be a very good companion.

The picture doesn't do him justice.

 

http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaype...?petid=14917490

[aljones]

Thanks for posting Kiedis's link, Mike. He does look/sound like he could be a great companion in the right home. And I agree with Julie that sometimes it's the harder choice to recognize that our situations don't fit a particular dog.

 

I was wondering if there might not be other ways (short of adopting him) that you might be able to help him out, since he seems to have made such an impression on you. Maybe you could share his story with other animal-loving friends, to get the word out about him and the type of home he needs? Or perhaps visit him a few more times, offering to help with whatever rehab he needs: walking, grooming, just hanging out with a caring human? Or, if your finances allow it, "sponsoring" him with a donation to the rescue?

 

I thought that maybe doing these other things would help both Kiedis and you in the long run. When I've come across a dog at my local shelter that I cannot adopt but want to help, I try some of these strategies to make myself feel somewhat useful, at least. Just an idea, of course.