Cat fixation problem - how to correct this?

[tensorgirl]

Hi everyone,

 

I have a training dilemma of sorts right now. I've had Lexi, my 4 year old border collie, for a little over a year. She came from a local rescue group and unfortunately I know very little about her prior life, socialization, etc. I don't have any other pets, and am not planning on having cats at all anytime soon, so I didn't really investigate her behavior around cats when I got her. Also, when she first came to live with me, she largely ignored neighborhood cats (at most, she would stare at them, but calling her name would break the stare).

 

Recently (last 3-4 months) her behavior towards cats has changed quite a bit, and she's exhibiting a large amount of prey drive - if any cat appears anywhere within her sight, she instantly fixates on the cat. The fixating is the biggest problem. She's typically a very obedient dog - for other distractions, simply calling her name almost always brings her focus back to me; a loud clap or noise will also do the trick. But with cats, nothing will break her focus on them. I can squirt her with water, call her name, try to pull her away (on a leash), bring out steak... no matter what I do, she will not break her eye contact with the cat. Worse, if the cat moves, she'll chase and attack it. If it was just chasing, I wouldn't be as concerned, but I believe she would kill one if she caught it. It's a concern to me for several reasons (she could get hit by a car chasing a cat, or have an eye badly injured by it, or I could be held liable for cat vet bills for neighbors), and a behavior I would like to change, but being a less experienced trainer, I have no idea what to do to correct the fixation problem. If I can't get her attention, how can I correct this behavior? Can anyone offer advice here? She doesn't fixate like this on anything else (not even frisbees, surprisingly). I am at a loss as to what to do about it. Or maybe it's just a strong prey instinct and there's nothing I can do except to stop trusting her off-leash! Any tips?

[juliepoudrier]

My answer may not be popular with some, but here it is. One thing I absolutely will NOT tolerate is chasing a small animal with intent to harm. When another life is in danger because of my dog's behavior I make it clear to the dog in no uncertain terms that such behavior is unacceptable--otherwise known as a "Come to Jesus" meeting. If any of my dogs so much as looks like they want to chase a cat or other small animal, I am right up in their face, very unhappy voice and body language, letting them have it. Period. No luring their attention away, no trying to drag them away, no loud noise as a distraction--other than my voice, which will convey very clearly that the HUMAN IS VERY, VERY UNHAPPY WITH THE DOG! And this goes doubly for a dog who has already demonstrated a willingness to chase and do harm. In such instances, I am not above grabbing the dog by its cheek hairs (hair/skin on either side of the face, basically below the ears) or scruff and giving it a good shake while I am telling the dog how unhappy I am. (Note: I don't berate the dog for a long period of time; basically I just get in the dog's face and gain its undivided attention by my obvious unhappiness: "Hey! Whaddoyouthinkyou'redoing? Getouttathat!Doyouhearme?" And of course I wouldn't do this with a dog who is fear aggressive as it would probably just escalate to a situation where the dog would feel it needed to defend itself.)

 

And while I'm sure some folks will be horrified that I would resort to harsh methods in this situation, I will note that I am generally not someone who is hard on dogs, quite the opposite in fact, but this is one special case where I will, because I absolutely do not want to be responsible for one of my dogs maiming or killing one of my small animals, or worse, someone else's. Chasing with intent to harm falls into the "absolutely will not tolerate for one second" category. Since you can't trust your dog not to chase, I think she should be kept on a leash whenever there's a reasonable expectation that her path might cross that of a cat or other small critter.

 

For dogs who aren't chasers and just want to stare, I use a simple verbal correction. If they persist, they can go in a crate. Or, alternatively you could try some other method like clicker training to redirect her focus.

 

JMO.

 

J.

[Sue R]

When it comes to something like this, I have always found Julie's recommendations to be very sound. I could not add anything to what she said except to say that, as soon as you see undesirable behavior just beginning, that is the time to deal with it with whatever level of seriousness it deserves.

 

Best wishes!

[powerfulgazelle]

We have a resident cat, who was here long before Kip, so we did have to make sure we got the "how to interact with cats" thing straight, from the get-go.

 

Kip does watch "the cat channel" a lot. As long as it is admiring from a distance or friendly/nonstalking behavior closer up, I am okay with it. More obnoxious fixation or stalking gets a firm "LEAVETHECATALONE!". Ignoring a "LEAVETHECATALONE!" gets him in his crate immediately. Kip has occasionally taken it upon himself to try to chase Bing (20 lb, dog savvy, fully clawed cat) downstairs and he gets much what Julie described. (There seems to be something about Bing setting off down the steps that tempts Kip.)

 

Mostly, it's a peaceful coexistence.

[pansmom]

Yep, and here's what you can try if you're not comfortable with confrontational methods or have a fear aggressive dog (this worked for, Pan, my fear-aggressive dog who is cured of cat-chasing now): first, the next couple times the dog gives a cat the eye, you give a cue like you think that means he wants to remove him or herself from the environment (inside at our house, this was "leave the room!") in a cheerful tone--and then you calmly escort her by the collar out of the room. This teaches the dog the cue.

 

Once the dog knows the remove-yourself cue, every subsequent time the dog gives the cat the eye, (1) you say "leave it" in a neutral voice (obviously dog must know "leave it" first); (2) if the dog doesn't break focus, you give the remove-yourself cue in a cheerful interrogatory tone ("leave the room?"); (3) if the dog doesn't break focus, you stand up, repeat the remove-yourself cue in a cheerful declarative tone ("leave the room!") and then if they don't listen, calmly escort them out of the room by the collar.

 

Using this process, Pan learned what "leave the room" meant in two reps probably, and then once she knew that, she would "leave the room" herself so I wouldn't have to escort her. Pretty soon she began breaking focus reliably at the "leave the room?" question, and after a couple weeks, she began listening to "leave it." Now I have her trained to "leave it" when the cat meows or hisses and obviously wants to be left alone. I did that by telling her "she said leave it" every time the cat expressed her malcontent verbally. Now she and the cat can lay together (the cat is super laid back and for some reason unbeknownst to me likes the dog despite the dog's sound reactivity and instablity) and the two coexist much more peacefully because in effect I have taught the dog how to understand cat. I was so thrilled when a plaintive cat meow actually got her to walk off. And OH YES that earned her a ton of treats!!! Treating is great when the dog breaks focus on cue obviously.

 

WHOEVER IT WAS WHO TOLD ME TO TRY THE "LEAVE THE ROOM" BIT, I DON'T REMEMBER YOUR NAME, BUT THANK YOU, IT WORKED AND IT ROCKS!!!!

 

To do this outdoors, you'll need a drag line. You should have one anyway anytime cats could possibly come around, as stated above, until this problem is solved. And if anyone has a fear aggressive dog outside who is not at the very least on a drag line, fwhaaaa?

[WildFlower]

Kip does watch "the cat channel" a lot.

 

 

Daisy watches that channel a lot too. But in much the same way you described. I can't even remember the last time she actually chased Merry.... But Daisy is definitely interested in her.

[Journey]

Or, alternatively you could try some other method like clicker training to redirect her focus.

 

 

A clicker sound would be all my one bitch needs to kill a cat!

 

Getting all in her face is nothing but an annoyance to her, she requires hard physical corrections.every.single.time

[juliepoudrier]

I start with the in your face stuff and escalate from there. Fortunately I've never had one, adult or pup, that was intent on harming another animal. And even the itinerant visitors have learned very quickly to leave cats/chickens alone.

 

If my dog were chasing with intent to kill in the house, I wouldn't waste time teaching a "leave the room" command (although I understand that alternative methods are necessary for fear biters and the like), and like Pansmom noted, my dog would never be off leash outside.

 

J.

[Journey]

And even the itinerant visitors have learned very quickly to leave cats/chickens alone.

J.

 

Chickens she doesn't even look at - cats, she is fixated on. I can call her off of squirrels but not cats. The clicker "sound" would set her off, she hasn't shown signs of wanting to kill them, she hasn't shown signs of wanting to leave them alone either. Sooner or later she'll have to get over it, I will need a barn cat one day!

[Lenajo]

Intent to harm a cat here incures serious, immedate punishment at whatever level was required to stop the behavior. My cats are family, and I will not tolerate them being threatened or hurt. Leaving the room might work for an innocuous behavior like pushing into people's space rudely while they are eating, or perhabs for Rose or Sassy when they won't stop sitting on Bob (cat) in his bed because they want him to play (he does most of the time, but he does have his bedtime).

 

This is not such an innocent behavior, or we wouldn't be talking about it.

 

Journey's btch has a date with a pink lunge whip when she meets my cats again. I understand it's presence has also stopped some mouthing off LOL The deadly "pop" noise apparently has some genetic memory to it that doesn't even require "proof" to work - sort of like kids and the sound "aaaannnntttt".

[pansmom]

Intent to harm a cat here incures serious, immedate punishment at whatever level was required to stop the behavior. My cats are family, and I will not tolerate them being threatened or hurt. Leaving the room might work for an innocuous behavior like pushing into people's space rudely while they are eating, or perhabs for Rose or Sassy when they won't stop sitting on Bob (cat) in his bed because they want him to play (he does most of the time, but he does have his bedtime).

 

This is not such an innocent behavior, or we wouldn't be talking about it.

 

Yeah, that's true. Pan was introduced to cats very young (though she was separated from them until later in her life due to one of my cats getting diagnosed with cancer right after we got Pan), but both of mine have claws and one of them has always popped her on the nose if she played too rough and is rather large, so she has never had intent to "kill" them. Her problem was always obsessive compulsive herding, not prey drive. She is altogether different with squirrels. But she used to get so FIXATED on the cats (especially the small one) that it worried me, and she would snark at them and occasionally growl. And do the crouch, and stalk them obsessively (nipping to control their movements). Now she just licks them for the most part, and only snarks at them if she's having an episode. But she's always either tethered or muzzled right now in the house so she can't hurt them and the one who likes her most commonly tends to lie just out of reach anyhow.

[Tommy Coyote]

You might try spitting in his mouth and then banging lots of pans over his head. (just kidding)

[Lenajo]

Pansmom you used a lot of elaborate terms to describe it, but what it comes down to is your dog is preying on your cat, and so far...has not hurt it.

 

The term "obesessive compulsive herding" is ridiculous (and that's my nice description, after several revisions) Herding happens on livestock, period. Anything else is just prey instinct and excuses.

 

Did you neglect to mention in your training instruction post (the "leave the room" method) that your dog is muzzled and tethered all the time now.? Of course there are different options availabel for tied and muzzled dogs! We can talk, click and be cheery all we want then can't we

 

I don't want my cats clawing at my dogs to get them leave them alone. That's a good way to have serious eye injuries.

 

only snarks at them if she's having an episode

We don't tolerate "episodes" here.

 

 

 

Yeah, that's true. Pan was introduced to cats very young (though she was separated from them until later in her life due to one of my cats getting diagnosed with cancer right after we got Pan), but both of mine have claws and one of them has always popped her on the nose if she played too rough and is rather large, so she has never had intent to "kill" them. Her problem was always obsessive compulsive herding, not prey drive. She is altogether different with squirrels. But she used to get so FIXATED on the cats (especially the small one) that it worried me, and she would snark at them and occasionally growl. And do the crouch, and stalk them obsessively (nipping to control their movements). Now she just licks them for the most part, and only snarks at them if she's having an episode. But she's always either tethered or muzzled right now in the house so she can't hurt them and the one who likes her most commonly tends to lie just out of reach anyhow.

[pansmom]

Pansmom you used a lot of elaborate terms to describe it, but what it comes down to is your dog is preying on your cat, and so far...has not hurt it.

 

The term "obesessive compulsive herding" is ridiculous (and that's my nice description, after several revisions) Herding happens on livestock, period. Anything else is just prey instinct and excuses...

 

We don't tolerate "episodes" here...

 

I think I can tell the difference when my dog is playing/herding or preying. Her play with other dogs has always involved a lot of herding type behavior too--circling, chasing, and nudging with the nose--interspersed with submissive postures and crouching and play bows. Prey involves running in a straight line at something with intent to kill. Play and herding is jumping around, nipping, circling, crouching, bowing... The cats just don't like to play with a giant dog, at least not for very long because she can be rough with nipping and the cats would hiss and it would escalate. And she was obsessed with them for a while, so we had to teach her to break focus. And all this is different from redirected aggression which is what I mean when I say "episode."

 

Did you neglect to mention in your training instruction post (the "leave the room" method) that your dog is muzzled and tethered all the time now.? Of course there are different options availabel for tied and muzzled dogs! We can talk, click and be cheery all we want then can't we

 

When I did the "leave the room" method, that was BEFORE she was tethered and muzzled in the house, so that's why I neglected to mention it. I trained her to do that before I took her to Dr. Haug. And it is only today and yesterday that she has started wearing her muzzle and dragging a line - before that she was just tethered.

 

I'm not sure why you are being so sarcastic. I did couch my statements above by saying that here's something someone could try with a fear aggressive dog or someone who wasn't comfortable with confrontational methods. It's not for everyone. I can respect the fact that your methods work best for you, and mine work best for me.

[BustopherJones]

Lenajo and pansmom -

 

Enforcement on this Board rests exclusively with Eileen, who wields TWEP power. So may I simply point out three things, without taking sides?

- The difference of opinion seems to be degenerating into a personal argument.

- I like and respect both of you, and am saddened that there is a disagreement between you.

- I am becoming a bit uncomfortable, as a fellow poster, as to where escalation of this debate might lead.

 

Thank you for considering my viewpoint.

[juliepoudrier]

My two cents:

1. As the owner of a fear agressive dog, there's a reason I posted my original caveat about "in your face" methods and fear agressive dogs. It's not pretty being bit severely by your own dog (I know this). So I can understand why Pansmom used the method she used.

 

2. In general, for normally wired dogs, it makes sense to me to go ahead and use the "in your face" method because the most important thing is to make an impression on the dog BEFORE any damage is done to another animal and also BEFORE the dog can practice the self-rewarding behavior of chasing a cat or other small animal.

 

3. In the OP's case, unless her dog has fear issues, I would most certainly have a "Come to Jesus" meeting the very next time the dog even thought about chasing a cat, since the dog has already proven her willingness to prey on a cat.

 

4. With my own cats in my own house, I might allow some staring behavior (the cats don't seem to care), but will not tolerate stalking of the cat by the dog, even if the cat can take care of itself. I have had dogs injured by a cat, and at best it's like a pig's been stuck in your house if the cat catches an ear vein, and at worst, the dog could end up with a injured eye--not to mention what would happen to the cat if the dog too umbrage and I couldn't intervene quickly enough.

 

5. To me there is a difference between a dog that's messing with "his cat" (see #4) and a dog that's out on a walk and wants to chase down any cat, and since I think these dogs are smart enough to understand some context, I would expect the dog to differentiate between the two.

 

So I think I fall somewhere in the middle, though certainly more on the side of in your face first, ask questions later.

 

J.

[pansmom]

So I think I fall somewhere in the middle, though certainly more on the side of in your face first, ask questions later.

 

Can I just say that I love Pan, but sometimes REALLY WISH I HAD A NORMAL DOG I COULD TEACH THINGS TO THAT WAY because it would be SO MUCH EASIER?!?!

[Shetlander]

Can I just say that I love Pan, but sometimes REALLY WISH I HAD A NORMAL DOG I COULD TEACH THINGS TO THAT WAY because it would be SO MUCH EASIER?!?!

 

I hear what you are saying, but we often learn so much from our truly challenging dogs and go on to become much better trainers and owners. Actually, I believe we are better trainers with each dog, but I know I've taken some quantum leaps with my "not normal" dogs. Heck, just getting my first border collie had me refining my training and puppy raising techniques.

[juliepoudrier]

Wendy,

Whatever your feelings toward Pansmom, I think it's unfair to jump her when she's made it clear that she taught Pan to leave the cats alone BEFORE she ever went the route of the behaviorist and muzzle, leash, etc. You may not like her methods, but that doesn't mean she's got her head up her a$$ either. If we were talking about my fear aggressive dog, I can assure you that I wouldn't use the same anti-chase techniques that I use for the others and posted here, and I HAVE raised and trained a few dogs.

 

J.

[Eileen Stein]

Lenajo, I have deleted your last post. Feel free to re-post if you want to address the substance of pansmom's advice/methods rather than disparaging her personally.

[juliepoudrier]

Eileen,

Feel free to delete my response to that post as well if you want, as now it's a bit of a non sequitur....

 

J.

[bcnewe2]

I have a cat killer. I have done everything and anything I can think of to get him to stop. It's not OK in any manner. We have a come to Jesus meeting each and every time. It does not work. I think there's a glitch in his brain when it comes to this matter. I've even had Jack K work on/with him. Most we've ever gotten is a quick look over his shoulder to see if anyone is in striking distance before he goes for it.

What I do is keep him on a leash if I think there's a cat around. If he sees one first, well, he's never been able to catch one before I caught him. But I don't think the outcome would be good.

I don't tolerate it for one minute. Anyone seeing what I've done or others have done to him in the name of getting him to understand this is not ok, most would call us abusers. But I feel the life of a cat is worth what ever it takes for me to not let Mick eat them.

 

I'd love to see Wendy "chat" with Mick. I figure if Jack can't get it, I'm on a sinking boat to no where. I will never give up but I watch for cats like a hawk.

 

Sad thing is, my son is a cat guy. he asks for one all the. We used to have them Mick used to be ok. Then we got this one stupid cat that would growl at dogs. That seems to be what started this mess. Now we are a catless family.

 

I have never seen Mick quit sheep...Never...cept one time in the last year we were farm sitting and a cat jumped right into his drive line on a huge flock of sheep. For one minute he stopped working and thought about chasing this cat. I asked him WTF was he doing and he looked ashamed for a sec. then went back to work. But it tells me that even stock work could be put aside to kill or chase a cat. Not good, not good at all!

 

We live in a crap hole for the time being (new house should be here next week) I've been at war with the mice in this place since we moved it. I would die for a good mouser. But for us, while Mick is alive and I choose to keep him as a family member, we will be a catless family.

 

Wish I could arrange with God for a huge crack of lightening (he's extremely thunder phobic but will work though thunder) to hit right next to him when he is thinking about chasing a cat. Don't know if it'd work but I'd try anything.

 

If anyone has any ideas that aren't clicker based (not against clickers but that'd be a joke for this serious issue) that haven't been mentioned let me in on them. I have a feeling this will be a battle for life.

 

BTW...we are now able to walk though a barn with cats around (maybe not on the floor right in front of him) if he working or going to work and I can keep him on track but it's harder than anything I've ever ran up against.

 

Mick doesn't chase anything else. I have baby chicks right now. He might stare at them but it's not the same brain that he has with cats. He doesn't see fowl (besides the baby chicks that tromp right in front of his face all the time) I've watched him lay in the front yard here and watch a troop of turkeys march right by him and he doesn't even bat an eye but cats....differnt story altogether.

 

Come to Jesus...my butt. I think he's gonna have to go speak with the devil himself.

 

eta

I forgot to mention that the one time I went to my Mom's and she didn't understand how serious this matter was, she had the idea that she could carry her cat across the room while Mick watched. Well they ended up down the stairs in an all out brawl. My Mom had to use a broom to get them apart. She kept appoligizing for hitting Mick on the head with the broom. I kept telling her she did the right thing.

It was 2 weeks later and I'm petting Mick on the head. What's this I feel on his head? I pluck it off. It's a cat claw embedded in his skull. Didn't faze him one bit. I did mention that he's a ass didn't I?

[Ooky]

I agree with the "come to Jesus" method, but agree it wouldn't be wise for a dog like Pan. However, I'd like to add this:

 

From what I've observed in Odin, prey drive is prey drive. It can occur towards cats, or squirrels or bunnies, or small dogs. And not only that, he can get interested in one of those 4 and then not so much and then get too interested again. So it's good to stay on your toes that way.

 

Mine's actually safest with cats, with those groups (or so I thought). But I thought from previous behavior he was totally safe, as Benway (and Lobo, before) is/was his cat. Actually, that's not really accurate, because it's really more like he's Benway's dog. But he went to stay with my in-laws while I was recently on vacation, and apparently developed an unhealthy obsession with their 3-legged "border kitty". She hates him and he couldn't take it, not getting to be right with the cat and hanging out. He started "wearing" her around the couch, by my in-laws accounts, and they were just like, it was no big deal, but we couldn't stop him!

 

Oh, I wish I had been there as he would have been stopped. About a month ago I saw him starting something leading to that with this same cat, and we did have a meeting. Everyone thought I was being weirdly hard on him but he relaxed and reliably LEFT HER after that. He is not fearful or reactive and my response is it's not tolerated (thanks in large part to having the crap scared out of me a year ago here -- rightfully). These dogs are challenging, awesome examples of what dogs can be. Cat-sized prey is easy.

 

Cats are very intelligent (well, particularly some of them) and I don't think most of these dogs have to be unsafe around the family cat or other cats at all (same for small dogs, which Odin has historically been worst with). But the rule I've been going by with all these small animal groups with my guy is: interacting with ok (if not negative); REACTING TO NOT.

[Shetlander]

Wish I could arrange with God for a huge crack of lightening (he's extremely thunder phobic but will work though thunder) to hit right next to him when he is thinking about chasing a cat. Don't know if it'd work but I'd try anything.

 

If anyone has any ideas that aren't clicker based (not against clickers but that'd be a joke for this serious issue) that haven't been mentioned let me in on them. I have a feeling this will be a battle for life.

 

Wow, that is a hard core case you have there! Since you've used very harsh methods to no avail and say you're willing to try anything, how would trying a clicker approach hurt at this point? It would need to be a very carefully planned out, with many tiny increments, keeping the dog leashed and the cat protected (behind a barrier, dog muzzled, something) to start with. I probably would never trust this dog to be 100% safe around cats but if I could at least get some control over the situation it would be worth it to me.

 

Not saying you should. And this is an extremely hard case that I'd want to get a true clicker expert in to come up with what would be a fairly intensive plan. But, again, if nothing else has worked and you're desperate....

[BustopherJones]

it's a bit of a non sequitur....

And that would be different from your other posts how?

 

C'mon, Julie, you know I love and respect you, and am just kidding. But when you give me an opening like that, I just can't resist.