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Cat fixation problem - how to correct this?


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I would certainly give it a try. I think I'd need an expert like Kristine but she isn't close enough. If there's anyone in CO close to the western slope that thinks they'd like to give it a whirl, I'm game. Only if I'm totally there to supervise, with or without a muzzle I think he could still do damage. He's one serious jerk.

I think clicker training is fine, just not my choosen method. So that being the case, you'd have to start at square one with Mick and a clicker. I'm sure I wouldn't be good enough with a clicker to make it work.

He is not a dog that will stop work for a treat. Heck, if outside doing anything, he won't take a treat. He's not food motivated in the least. Nor is he toy motivated, praise motivated. or anything else execpt stock motivated. I guess I could rope a up a sheep bring it in the house and use it as a reward. But that wouldn't really do the trick as he'll almost ignore cats for sheep. He will tremble and look at the cat, but he's ashamed if he quits sheep. Which I think is an admirable trait.

Remember the story a few weeks ago that Mick had an episode while working sheep. NOt sure exactly what happend but I think his hip slipped out of place. He tried his damnest to keep working, didn't stop till I called him off and when he came out the gate he fell over and couldn't walk. So he is a very driven dog. To bad it's been turned against cats.

 

I guess we have made some progress but I will NEVER trust him with a cat...NEVER.

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I have never seen Mick quit sheep...Never...cept one time in the last year we were farm sitting and a cat jumped right into his drive line on a huge flock of sheep. For one minute he stopped working and thought about chasing this cat. I asked him WTF was he doing and he looked ashamed for a sec. then went back to work. But it tells me that even stock work could be put aside to kill or chase a cat. Not good, not good at all!

 

Yes, a very hard core case. About the only thing I can come up with is an E collar and I doubt I would go that route, catless is easier for all involved in some cases.

 

Since you've used very harsh methods to no avail and say you're willing to try anything, how would trying a clicker approach hurt at this point?

 

IMO, I can't fathom how anyone could think this would work. Aside from a barrier, muzzle and whateverelse...you are still traumatizing the cat and ime you are building steam in the dog so that the next time there is a chance of him getting the cat he will try that much harder.

 

 

I see why now that a post from over a year ago still has life to it Why

 

There seems to be a huge disconnect in pet owners and working dog owners and I have seen more and more of this disconnect lately. Maybe it's lifestyle and some don't see the life and death involved with the working dogs vs pets. I can completely understand "why" Mick is so hard core about cats, he works just about everyday, and I can understand why pets are not as hard core. Tossing out ideas is great but one has to understand both sides of the issue, I just don't see a working dog (cat killer or wanna be) being clicker trained to not kill the cat, what's in it for him? A cookie? When given the choice to work sheep or eat a cookie my dogs will not even think about the cookie.

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Since you've used very harsh methods to no avail and say you're willing to try anything, how would trying a clicker approach hurt at this point?

 

IMO, I can't fathom how anyone could think this would work. Aside from a barrier, muzzle and whateverelse...you are still traumatizing the cat and ime you are building steam in the dog so that the next time there is a chance of him getting the cat he will try that much harder.

 

YOu said exactly what I was thinking but don't want to insult clicker trainers. I do think it is a valid method in some cases. I just can't see it working for Mick or any real serious non fearful working dog. Now Dew....I call her more of a Sat. afternoon working dog. She loves to work but she doesn't live to work. There's a fine line difference and it's not easy to explain. But clickers would probably work for her. Not for stockwork but for anything else. She is a very biddable dog. and loves to interact with me or any human. Mick is not. Dew had got in her head to stare at cats. Heck, she'll get caught up in staring at the chicks. ONe time I called them both off starring at the chicks. Mick just up and turned around, Dew lunged at a chick. All I had to do was raise my voice and she knew she was in trouble but Mick....goes deaf when he's in that sort of mode.

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Mick just up and turned around, Dew lunged at a chick. All I had to do was raise my voice and she knew she was in trouble but Mick....goes deaf when he's in that sort of mode.

 

I may be misunderstanding you but I don't see this as a good characteristic in a working dog. My dogs NEED to listen - and to call off when necessary - if this is not the case, they are not useful to me . . .

 

Kim

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IMO, I can't fathom how anyone could think this would work.

 

I'm not saying it would definitely work. I was responding to a post that stated 1. So far punishment had been completely ineffective 2. I'm willing to try anything and 3. I won't try a clicker approach. My point was clicker training might be helpful if it was done correctly, if one was so motivated to try.

 

Aside from a barrier, muzzle and whateverelse...you are still traumatizing the cat and ime you are building steam in the dog so that the next time there is a chance of him getting the cat he will try that much harder.

 

Those are important factors to take into consideration, certainly. The cat does not need to be traumatized if things were handled correctly -- it would take a certain kind of cat, the cat is safe and feels safe (a barrier would assist with that), the training begins with the cat at some distance, etc. At this time, based on what was written I can't imagine the dog is going to try that much harder to kill cats. It's already hard core. And yes, I understand it would be a huge challenge and I'm not saying it is something Kristen should do. I'm not sure what I'd do in this situation myself but I would consider clicker training as one option.

 

I see why now that a post from over a year ago still has life to it

 

There seems to be a huge disconnect in pet owners and working dog owners and I have seen more and more of this disconnect lately. Maybe it's lifestyle and some don't see the life and death involved with the working dogs vs. pets. I can completely understand "why" Mick is so hard core about cats, he works just about everyday, and I can understand why pets are not as hard core.

 

I'm not sure why you see this particular behavior as part of the working vs. pet issue you posted about a year ago. I once had a pet mixed breed (not a drop of Border Collie) that was as hard core as they come. He wanted to kill any animal -- dog, cat, puppy, kitten -- on sight. He was simply wired that way -- it had nothing to do with working every day. I used punishment back then too and it didn't help one bit. One approach (using a prong collar) made it worse. I knew nothing about clicker training back then so I can't tell you how that approach would have worked, but I can't see that it would have made it worse.

 

Tossing out ideas is great but one has to understand both sides of the issue, I just don't see a working dog (cat killer or wanna be) being clicker trained to not kill the cat, what's in it for him? A cookie? When given the choice to work sheep or eat a cookie my dogs will not even think about the cookie.

 

With all respect, I don't think you are necessarily seeing both sides of the issue because it doesn't sound as though you truly understand what clicker training is or what it can accomplish. Operant conditioning has been used for decades with virtually all kinds of animals with great success. If it can work with lions, bears, dolphins, cows and chickens, I don't see why it would be impossible to succeed with a working Border Collie.

 

Again, not saying anyone should do anything. With this type of dog, I'd personally never trust him around cats but I'd be happy to have a little more control if one should pop up as they tend to do from time to time.

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I'm not sure if I'm writing it right either. Yes it is not a good trait. I would not breed Mick nor consider him a breeding canidate. Dew...her lunging at a chick was puppy stuff. She didn't hurt the chick just got away from herself for a minute. Mick was called off easy because he wasn't really interested in the chicks. IF it were a cat, I'd have a snowballs chance in hell to get him off. Yes I can physically remove him, I'm not worried that he'll redirect on me but it's not something that I'd ever want to pass on in the gene pool. I'm gald that when I got him as a puppy I didn't "need" a dog to keep my sheep. Over the years of having him, circumstances have changed dramaticly, I "need" a dog now. He's stepped up to the plate but I think that's cause I stepped up with him.

 

He's been one hell of a first time real working dog for me. I had a few working dogs before him but none as driven as him.

I've learned so much that most dogs seem easy compared to him. It might have been that when I got him I was really green and from the public standpoint that pp and kindness would work with anydog. Well, he sure taught me different but he also taught me how to correct in a fair and consistant manner. If I am unjustly harsh on him, he reflects it in his work. If I pass information to him in a way that he can understand he is happy to work in a manner that I want. Could have been totally diffrernt had I been the person I am now, compared to the animal lover, kind correcter and general joe public person that I was when I started on this adventure.

 

He isn't the most biddable dog, and that is high on my need list when I look for a dog now. But quite nice if I'm accurate on my timing and corrections. I love him dearly but would never want another dog like him. Jack K with his perfect timing can make Mick look like he's perfect. But it's taken me long years to get even close to that.

And I can say, that I love Dew but her Sat. afternoon work ethics will keep me from wanting a dog like her again too. She's a great little worker but it's not her life. For a good working dog, STM it has to be their life. Live or die for sheep. Mick would die if he couldn't work sheep, Dew would find something else in life that she loved.

Does that make more since or did I confuse the issue more?

 

Mick has been neutered for a long time. I worked hard on the people that owned his brother to have him neutered too. They didn't see past their own love of their dog to see the issues that seem to run in this line. His bro in now neutered too. But not for the reasons I would have. There are some health issues in this line that didn't show till way down the line. So they neutered him because of health issues, doesn't matter to me why but I'm sure glad they did, as they wanted to breed him "just once"

Before we knew all Micks health issues and other issues, his breeder had thought to use him as a stud. I'm so glad we didn't. I was green enough that it felt like a compliment to me for some big hat to want to breed him. Now I'm just super greatful that we didn't, cause I'm sure I'd have kept a pup and then I might have 2 of him. One is all a person should have to learn from like this.

 

I do love him dearly. But the line ends with his litter and no one that I know of is breeding any of his siblings. and previous litters have not been bred either that I know of.

Live and learn. I am 100% more picky on what I want in a pup now, but to give my self some credit, I didn't know what I know now!

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Well, he sure taught me different but he also taught me how to correct in a fair and consistant manner. If I am unjustly harsh on him, he reflects it in his work. If I pass information to him in a way that he can understand he is happy to work in a manner that I want.

Quoting myself, that is the one thing that would lead me to even try clicker training. I admit I don't have the talent or knowledge to do that with a clicker but I could see it working if done perfectly. Then again....maybe not.

 

When Mick was a youngster and just starting on sheep. His breeder came out to my house. She took him in a small paddock to work with him. She had a stick, at one point she corrected him with the stick, she didn't hit him but blocked his path to sheep. Mick being the kind of dog he is...came right up the stick trying to bite her. Should have been a big tip off right then and there. The handler took it on as a challange, I shuddered wondering what the hell I was going to do with this little hellion. Like I said...he's been a journey. Not always good but sure has taught me allot!

 

Sorry to highjack this thread. But is was about cats and that's what I started my post about.

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Kristin, Mick may or may not be fixable. The decision is how far you want to go with doing it.

 

In order to have positive reinforcement you must have a reward _you control_ greater than what the dog wants (the cat). Obviously with prey drive that reward is going to be greater than most anything you've got short of other prey. Some trainers, in particularily schutzhund, have gotten prey reward set up by getting them hooked on a ball or tug. I have not seen that sucessful with more creativiely intelligent dogs like collies - they either go "yeah, right" when the "real" prey is htere, or worse develop a new obsession with the da*n ball.

 

Another problem with the slower "build up to it" with the positive reinforcement/clicker method is that almost always it increases value of the prey in the dogs mind. the "cat", becomes "THE CAT" for example. Again, this is a creatively thinking breed. If you make an issue of something and don't rate it instantly as negative, they are likely to try positive interest. And if that "positive" is a behavior you don't want...look out!

 

In order to use punishment you must be able to do it when the cat is the full focus, at a level that stops the behavior completely. And while doing that the cat must be *safe* With such a serious issue, IF I was going to work on this it would be with an e-collar and a muzzle. It would not be pretty I can assure you, and lightning might be kinder. The few times I've done this to a dog it was life or death issues, car chasers that live on a roard, stock killing non-herders who have daily access to stock, or large working dog with very specific bad habits like back biting sheep that prevent them from being useful at all. (note here, it does not have any place in *training* behavior and a dog that requires it should never be bred. This is a high end behavior extinction tool *only*)

 

I don't see either as a reasonable option here. You've elected (or perhaps you could say Mick has elected for you) not to own cats. A hard lesson. I would not keep Mick here, and rehoming would be difficult at best.

 

Ooky good for you!. Your learning curve back then was steep, and I'm sure I was one of the people you were pretty mad at. My advice can be sharp, but I try to temper it with exeperience and reason for the good of the animals involved.. We long time board members don't type just to exercise our fingers :rolleyes:

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With all respect, I don't think you are necessarily seeing both sides of the issue because it doesn't sound as though you truly understand what clicker training is or what it can accomplish. Operant conditioning has been used for decades with virtually all kinds of animals with great success. If it can work with lions, bears, dolphins, cows and chickens, I don't see why it would be impossible to succeed with a working Border Collie.

 

 

Respect noted. However, I have seen PP, OC, and all. Worked with some of the trainers at Sea World. The difference that most people do not take into consideration is that when OC is used on Whales, Dolphins, Tigers, etc..."we" the general public do not know when the animal has blown off the trainer, we do not know "exactly" what behavior the trainer asked for and whether or not the animal complied. Yes, I agree it works, not all the time and not as much in some cases as people would have you believe.

 

I want my dog to know when I am unhappy with them, I want them to think and make choices and learn. I want my cat starring bitch to know that hell will rain down on her if she "thinks" about chasing them.

 

Think about the dog that walks onto the field, the sheep lift their head and look - oh that's Fred, he's OK. Then another walks on the field, they lift their heads and run for their life. It's the intent, the mind set at that moment. Cats are too rewarding for some dogs, why - beats me. Some cats are smart enough to stay out of sight, some are dumb enough to not move and others just wanna play the lottery. It still boils down to intent on the dogs part and hard wired cat killers have no good intent.

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I have seen PP, OC, and all. Worked with some of the trainers at Sea World. The difference that most people do not take into consideration is that when OC is used on Whales, Dolphins, Tigers, etc..."we" the general public do not know when the animal has blown off the trainer, we do not know "exactly" what behavior the trainer asked for and whether or not the animal complied.

 

Very true. I'm not an expert on operant conditioning. I don't have the patience or probably the talent to go full out with the approach. I did find it interesting in Internet discussions with someone (who could be verified as to who she was) that worked in zoo's and how they used OC, not for tricks but in order to be able to handle animals as needed for things like vet care. Punishing a huge predator or any animal that could hurt/kill a human wasn't going to work to get it to cooperate and they didn't want to need to knock the animal out every time for certain procedures. It was very much behind the scenes that they were using the approach for their own safety as well as the well-being of the animals.

 

I want my dog to know when I am unhappy with them, I want them to think and make choices and learn. I want my cat starring bitch to know that hell will rain down on her if she "thinks" about chasing them.

 

That sounds similar to my approach with Quinn on certain issues (especially his dislike of/rivalry with the Lhasa).

 

Cats are too rewarding for some dogs, why - beats me.

 

I think they are just a type of prey to some dogs, same as rabbits or squirrels.

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With all respect, I don't think you are necessarily seeing both sides of the issue because it doesn't sound as though you truly understand what clicker training is or what it can accomplish. Operant conditioning has been used for decades with virtually all kinds of animals with great success. If it can work with lions, bears, dolphins, cows and chickens, I don't see why it would be impossible to succeed with a working Border Collie.

 

The number one reason is that most of the non-dog training you mention above is done in a controlled environment. While a limited amount of work has been done with dophins in open seas, they were trained in the "pen" (tank or seapen).

 

If the animal can't get away (physically or mentally - as is the pen raised dolphin) and you control all his resources indefinately or at least during all primary training, then positive reinforcement is going to be much easier to use. In fact I daresay that positive punishment in those situations would backfire, because even negative reinforcement (taking away something good) can cause these animals stress levels to increase that they have been known to " get even" with a trainer. Particularily orca - which oddly enough remind me of feral sea Border Collies. Black and white, and damn dangerous in unattended feral packs around smaller sea mammals.

 

and that makes another thread considering the humanity of captive keeping of wild animals for public viewing for profit under the guise of conservation - but I get off topic here

 

The SeaWorld rationale is why programs like Ruff Love work, and why human hostages develop Stockholm syndrome. Any *captive* animal can be taught through positive reinforcement only because it. has. no. choice. Perhaps positive is not so nice a word when you look at it that way?

 

Personally I like the intelligent creatitive thinker the Border Collie is. I see no need to keep him in a tank - so I put rules on his behavior so he can live in the bigger world and use his mind as a human partner instead of a pet. The rules, taught though all 4 parts of operant conditioning, are how the dog would learn in his wild pack. Most come through "common good" (you do what the pack desires, you eat better), and other things are learned though brieff, often harsh punishments (snakes, porcipines). Because we have bigger brains that pre-plan a little better, we can use this same method of teaching without jeopordizing the dogs life, health, or permanent relationship with the "pack"

 

With a Border Collie in prey drive to the extent Mick has developed on top of his genetics, you would be using positive reinforcement to teach the wild lion to ignore the gazelle under his nose. Theoretically possible, realistically impossible imo.

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Wendy

An e-collar is one of the few things I haven't tried. Not because I have an aversion to them but because I don'town one and the cat issue is like I said. Well managed when needed. I wouldn't be against trying one but at this point in time, we manage, no cats have died.

Mick is not young and he's got lots of health issues so I leave it as it is. I am always on guard for that stray cat and one day I might be sorry for not finishing this job but I also wonder if I could kill him and he'd still think about getting the cat. I'm not making light of it, I'm serious. This is a dog with lots of issues that I've chosen to keep. I will never rehome him. It was easier to become a non cat family, but I guarantee I will never have this issue again. I will know how to deal with it when it first starts. Not deal with it half a** as I tried in the beginning with Mick. It's a huge learning curve and hopefully I'm at least at the top of the curve learning more everyday.

 

I still might try an e-collar yet but at this time, it's not on my list of things to do.

 

There is a time and place for e-collars and most any other tool. They are not to be taken lightly and at this time I really have no need for one other than this one issue.

 

You are right, he'd be hell to rehome and my DH would kill me for even thinking about it. If truth be told, he's my boy and we live with some things as they are. Probably still the old love everything and treat them kindly mentality coming out in me. Although I will add that I have no problems with using a bark collar on a barker. they work and tons easier than anyother way I've tried for a true barker.

 

Ok...all you pp people out there can flame away. when any of you want to come out and try to PP's Mick's cat issues and we can guarantee the cats sanity and safety I welcome anyone to try.

I'm not down on PP, just a realist with a dog that has an extreme issue with cats and have never seen PP in this sort of situation work.

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Kristen I didn't mention Mick's age in my post and I probably should have. There is a point that you have to cut your losses and just live with what you have. This is an older dog with a really bad habit - it is what it is (and it is also, as you pointed out, a reason to come down hard on younger dogs to make sure it never gets to this point if you can help it)

 

I wouldn't shock him at his age for this either.

 

I would, after he's long gone, get a very sweet cat and name it Mick :rolleyes:

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I would, after he's long gone, get a very sweet cat and name it Mick

 

teehee...

My luck it'd turn into a dog killer! :rolleyes:

 

I won't chose to shock him either. If truth be told, I'm' not sure it would work before it'd fry him for other stuff.

 

This is such a serious matter, not to be taken lightly. Do not ever think it's a cute behavior, nip it in the bud ASAP. Whatever works for you and your dog.

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