Breeding Pets

[jdarling]

All a perception of what a person chooses to qualify as quality.

I believe a Border Collie by definition is a HERDING DOG

Now if your going to label the breed as a WORKING DOG what all consitutes Work?

Are you suggesting that SAR and various services other then livestock are not work?

 

And some people consider agility "work."

 

Here's how I classify it.

 

If I put my untrained dog in an agility arena, he's going to go piss on the equipment.

If I put my untrained dog in a disaster area, he's going to sniff around and find something to piss on.

If I attach my untrained dog to a blind person, there's going to be a problem.

 

But if I put my untrained dog in my pasture with my sheep, he's going to bring me the sheep. It might not be pretty the first time around, but that's my job to fix as his trainer.

 

Other types of "work" are taught behaviors. The type of work we discuss here on the boards is the natural instinct in the breed that working breeders strive to maintain.

 

And I still cannot believe we are needing to clarify this to someone who has been on these boards for this length of time.

 

IronHorse, did you buy a pup from this breeder?

 

Jodi

[IronHorse]

That's right - I guess I'd better just get a pet, and resolve to work the cattle on the farm myself, or sell the farm and just have whatever is the popular pet dog at the moment. I could still have as many "Border Collies" as I want, and they wouldn't even have to get their little paws dirty. Heck, I could even take the extra time (providing I sell the farm) to take my dogs around on the show circuit and maybe even run them in the "herding ring" if they have the ability to chase around after trained sheep.

 

Times change but that doesn't make it right to contribute to the decline or demise of something special, useful, and needed. If folks need to play around or make money breeding pets, let them breed pet breeds and not contribute to the ruin of a useful breed.

 

So this means that if its not done according to your perameters then it is the ruination of the Breed?

Progress does not occur at a stop, it comes from momentum with both mistakes and success.

Would you have us all paint our houses according to your color chart?

 

This breeder did not seek out this forum to gain approval for their actions,they were drug in here to basically be Lambasted with limited knowledge of their operation.

[Root Beer]

Where is that head-banging emoticon when ya need it?

A

 

 

ETA: just because many folks live in places where you may not see the NEED for these dogs, they are out there in more numbers than you think!!

 

Also, I may not have the same kind of "need" for a Border Collie, but when I say I want Border Collies to do dog sports with, I want the real thing. Not a "nice dog" that looks like a Border Collie!

 

I have a super nice Border Collie mix who is the perfect family pet. I have worked with her for years to build "drive" into her for Agility. She's a great Agility partner, but if she had an ounce of my working-bred Border Collie's drive, she would be 10 times the Agility dog that she is without it!

 

And I'm talking real "drive" here, not frenetic hyperfixation. (I have one of those, too. It's not an asset in a sport dog!)

 

Call it what you will, dog sports is a passion of mine. And taking part in dog sports with a Border Collie is a passion of mine. I want to train and compete with Border Collies who are Border Collies!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I love how it's always people who don't work with Border Collies, never have, possibly never will, who are the ones who sit back and say, "Oh, yes, the working Border Collie [or stockdog in general] is a dinosaur and you all have to accept that just because I just said that."

 

Your reasoning is flawed Ironhorse. There is JUST as strong a possibility that the future will require MORE Border Collies (and other breeds) bred correctly, for livestock work. Clouds are gathering over the feedlot industry and if a public storm erupts against the confinement feeding paradigm, they'll have to come up with low cost ways to manage large groups of livestock on open range. Hmmm.

 

ETA: Regarding the Border Collie as a "pet." Although there are trainers who stable their dogs from birth to death, most of us incorporate their working dogs in the household. We don't have twenty dogs - just maybe four to six. A main dog in prime, a recent retiree, a very old dog, and on the other side, a dog in training, and a pup. All but the trainee and the dog in prime are, in fact, pets. A working dog may spend a third of its life as, technically, a "pet." Gotta have the right personality for that. Nothing suckier than an older dog that can't work anymore and can't live in the house with everybody because they hate kids or other dogs.

[IronHorse]

Yeah, well, tell that to all the numerous people who really need these dogs to do real work on their ranches. Tell ya what, Ironhorse, take away the dog I just sold to a guy, and instead give him one of these POSs to work his 2500 pairs and 1000 goats and see what he has to say about outdated!

 

Where is that head-banging emoticon when ya need it?

A

 

ETA: just because many folks live in places where you may not see the NEED for these dogs, they are out there in more numbers than you think!!

 

I never suggested that the working Border Collie was outdated,what I said clearly is that the definition of the breed is expanding.

 

Obviously the rancher that you state you just sold a dog to came to a dealer who could supply him with the tool that he needs for his operation.

[IronHorse]

Deb,

It is where the contraction is happening that Iron Horse is talking about, agriculture and the need for a working dog is contracting, fight that contraction and the need for the right quality of dog will be preserved and maybe expand. To me it's the elephant in the room, we can point fingers at breeders the are not doing the right thing all we want, but as the demand for the quality of dog that we strive for decreases so will the number of breeders breeding that quailty, no market no dog. That does not mean give up, that means deal with the elephant, get dogs back doing the work they should be doing, not just token work of trialing or hobby herding. I don't mean to offend anyone or discredit the great dogs that are trialing, there are some great ones that are great using dogs, but trialing should be a demonstration of what is possible to help encourage people to require more of their using dogs, not a substitute for real work, ask yourself, is it turning into just a "Show Pen" in a different form.

 

Thank you I couldn't of said it better then that.

[IronHorse]

Jodi,

IronHorse, did you buy a pup from this breeder?

Nope, I have all the Border Collies I require at the present time.

Although out of curiousity I did have a telephone discussion with them this morning.

No I won't share the information that I discussed with them.

Their contact info is right there for any of you to use to ask your own questions.

[jdarling]

Thank you I couldn't of said it better then that.

 

Too bad that's not what you were saying at all, Iron Horse. You were basically telling us to leave the poor pet breeder alone because there's very little use for working dogs anymore and the purpose of the breed is branching out.

 

So what Deb is saying is:

 

get dogs back doing the work they should be doing, not just token work of trialing or hobby herding.

 

The breeder in question does not work her dogs AT ALL [ETA ... I don't actually know that ... there is a pretty dog working a few pretty ducks in one photo] ... so Iron Horse, what do you suggest would be the best method to convince said breeder to prove her dogs' working ability on livestock to a very functional level, above and beyond being a hobby herder -- as you so agree with Deb on this issue?

 

[Also edited to add - Iron Horse, do you agree with breeding Border Collies as pets?]

[jdarling]

Oh wait ... my bad ... I just found something I had not seen before.

 

Maggie also has inherited the strong herding instinct from her parents and loves to herd the geese, chickens and other dogs.

 

Silly me.

[Maralynn]

All a perception of what a person chooses to qualify as quality.

I believe a Border Collie by definition is a HERDING DOG

Now if your going to label the breed as a WORKING DOG what all consitutes Work?

Are you suggesting that SAR and various services other then livestock are not work?

Again I point out my opinion that at this point in history the tight perameters that you suggest are simply not suitable to define this breed any longer.

 

Who cares what job or sport a person cares to do with their BC? Breeding for herding will give you the "complete package" and produce a dog that will be able to do whatever the owner wishes to train it for. If it ain't broke, why fix it?

[IronHorse]

Your reasoning is flawed Ironhorse. There is JUST as strong a possibility that the future will require MORE Border Collies (and other breeds) bred correctly, for livestock work. Clouds are gathering over the feedlot industry and if a public storm erupts against the confinement feeding paradigm, they'll have to come up with low cost ways to manage large groups of livestock on open range. Hmmm.

 

Ever decreasing farm populations,ever increasing human populations with an ever increasing demand for product on the shelf,do you honestly believe the confinement feeding paradigm is going away?

Please point me at these vast tracts of open range that would be capable of supporting the massive numbers of livestock required to support the market.

I live in the middle of the largest cattle producing county in my state and the number of working dogs is next to none.

Alot of dogs riding on the tool box of the trucks,right in front of the atvs but they stay put as the atvs do the job.

The number of livestock I have worked with in my life would most likely suprise you so please don't presume that I do not understand the need for working dogs.

[WildFlower]

Who cares what job or sport a person cares to do with their BC? Breeding for herding will give you the "complete package" and produce a dog that will be able to do whatever the owner wishes to train it for. If it ain't broke, why fix it?

 

That was my thought exactly! My dog and I plan on working with livestock this spring and we also do agility. But she comes from working lines and working farm. The "working traits" that come from working bred dogs is what allows BCs to be so successful at many different tasks and so versatile.

 

Also, as for temperment, most people can't believe that she is a pure bred BC because she is so calm. When I need her to get up and go she does but otherwise is just as others have indicated not hyperactive.

[juliepoudrier]

Ever decreasing farm populations,ever increasing human populations with an ever increasing demand for product on the shelf,do you honestly believe the confinement feeding paradigm is going away?

I guess it depends on how you view the world and the commodities we buy. In some parts of this country, the slow food movement, community supported agriculture, "buy locally grown" initiatives, sustainable agriculture, and so on are indeed moving at least some people away from the feedlot production paradigm. Will feedlots disappear? I doubt it. But all you have to do is read the business magazines, etc., to see that food safety is big news right now, and feedlots and factory farming don't exactly have a great reputation for providing the safest food sources--from the sensational beef recalls all the way down to the stress, antibiotics, hormones, etc. that are used to grow feedlot/factory livestock. I am working on an article for one of our consultants right now--he jokingly suggested that the title should be "Killing People is Bad for Your Brand." And there's some serious truth in that statement made half in jest.

 

Agricultural statistics show that the majority of sheep production in this country is still on the open range, but interestingly, whereas sheep numbers are declining in many of the range states, numbers are actually increasing on small farms, largely in the east and midwest. There is some speculation that there may be more sheep in these areas than the USDA census can account for, because many of these small farms probably don't realize the minimum income from those sheep to make it reportable to the census. In fact, the article suggested that many small sheep farmers are largely producing food for themselves and perhaps for local barter. Another interesting point made in this document was that labor and management costs were significantly greater for range operations (39 percent) than for small family farms, presumably because on the small farms the family pitched in without actual pay, and therefore no "out of pocket pay expenses" are required. The document goes on to say that if labor costs were calculated for small family operations, then those operations would probably be only marginally profitable, and adds that "however, a sheep enterprise may be a more economically competitive use of farm family labor than other possible enterprises."

 

So it seems that small family type sheep operations are growing (and I'd be willing to bet that small goat operations are growing at an even faster rate, if the evidence around this area is any indication). They could realize a better profit if the cheap family labor they now use could be replaced by, say, a working dog. That dog could easily free up family members to work on value-added products from their sheep, thereby adding to their profit margin. So Becca may well be correct in foreseeing an increase in demand for dogs to help manage flocks. I know several folks, at least one of whom is a member of this forum, who used to use family labor to manage livestock and recently found that working dogs made life a heck of a lot easier.

 

Although your point about population growth and the need for cheap food sources is certainly valid, it seems, if you believe ag census statistics and this particular National Research Council report, that smaller family type farms are growing (at least as far as sheep production is concerned), and that by extension there may well be a continued and perhaps even growing need for useful farm dogs.

 

J.

ETA: If you want to review the source of the information I provided above, it can be found here. Here's the citation: Changes in the Sheep Industry in the United States: Making the Transition from Tradition, Committee on the Economic Development and Current Status of the Sheep Industry in the United States, Board on Agriculture and Natural Resources, Division on Earth and Life Studies, National Research Council of the National Academies, 2008.

 

I read just a small part of this document, but it's got some really good information for those who are interested in the sheep industry in this country.

[Jumpin Boots]

So it seems that small family type sheep operations are growing. They could realize a better profit if the cheap family labor they now use could be replaced by, say, a working dog. That dog could easily free up family members to work on value-added products from their sheep, thereby adding to their profit margin. So Becca may well be correct in foreseeing an increase in demand for dogs to help manage flocks. I know several folks, at least one of whom is a member of this forum, who used to use family labor to manage livestock and recently found that working dogs made life a heck of a lot easier.

 

Julie P., your well written response describes us almost to a 't', except that we are at the stage, before actually turning to a working dog for farm assistance. I was raised on a small 10 acre hobby farm, that my parents still live on. Growing up we had a few cows along with sheep, pigs, birds, and rabbits that we raised and butchered for meat. As I got into horses the cows disappeared. While we never had a 'working dog' we always had a farm dog that would act as livestock guardian. Since I am now down to 2 horses we are considering bringing a few cows onto the property again, but we are waiting until I get my younger dog working stock a bit. Renoir has already started helping a bit with the sheep, if I only had more time to work with him. After rescuing my first bc I quickly realized he needed a job and began agility, I am now addicted, but also see their ease and natural ability for them to work with stock. Do I think I will ever compete in herding events? No. Do I think I will take a herding clinic or lessons? Yes, probably a few. But even without those things Renoir has already proved that he is more than capable w/out any 'herding training' to be an assistant in the small needs my folks have on our family farm.

 

There are at least 4 other farms like ours, within a 5 mile radius, that I know of from driving by that are all now using working dogs. One of them has used them for years, but I believe the other 4 have only added their dogs in the last few years.

[Debbie Meier]

Too bad that's not what you were saying at all, Iron Horse. You were basically telling us to leave the poor pet breeder alone because there's very little use for working dogs anymore and the purpose of the breed is branching out.

 

So what Deb is saying is:

The breeder in question does not work her dogs AT ALL [ETA ... I don't actually know that ... there is a pretty dog working a few pretty ducks in one photo] ... so Iron Horse, what do you suggest would be the best method to convince said breeder to prove her dogs' working ability on livestock to a very functional level, above and beyond being a hobby herder -- as you so agree with Deb on this issue?

 

[Also edited to add - Iron Horse, do you agree with breeding Border Collies as pets?]

 

Actually, your not quite right as to what I am saying, as far as I'm concerned, quit worrying quite so much about what none working dog breeders are doing with dogs and worry more about making sure there is work available to insure the future of true working dogs. Trying to change the pet breeders and owners is not going to preserve the future of the breed, but rather allow it to slip away into more of a sporting breed, odds are that hobby/sport herders will always be hobby/sport herders. Getting the people that have the work educated and showing them how a good dog can make their life better will. If they understand how to handle a good dog and see good working dogs they won't end up buying pet quality or just a dog as a farm ornement. If someone wants pet quality and wants to produce pet quality it's not going to effect the overall health of the working bred dogs unless pet quality is all that is left, and that only would happen if there was no real work available.

 

When I say a none working dog breeder I am meaning people breeding for anything but useful working ability first, I even wonder sometimes about those focusing their breeding program around winning the trials and those that are selecting for health before work. Yeah I want a healthy dog, but some dogs are by physical accounts healthy but carry a gene that might, if the stars align, cause a problem, and those dogs are being eliminated from breeding programs regardless as to how good they work, things are changing and so many traps that pull people off course.

 

Deb

[Debbie Meier]

Sorta going off base, but just a note on confinements, we live in confinement heaven, I think you can see about 20 hog confinement buildings and two huge cattle confinements from our house (and I'm not kidding). Just to the south of us about 5 miles the concentration is even higher, adding in the Tyson turkey units in addition to many smaller contract owner run confinements along with the corporate units. I think the key with confinements is being able to feed concentrates, they don't get hay, they are pumped a complete pelleted feed. I don't think we have enough farm land to be able to even remotely think of free ranging all that livestock, but planting grain and converting it to a complete pellet allows the land to support the numbers, the manure from the numbers helps the land. When you get far south of us or into the Dakotas you see more free ranging, but the question is, is it because the land will yeild more as pasture then crop land? It seems like the concentration of confinements is directly cooralated to how well the land yields, if it produces more in grain crop then it would yield as pasture then you see confinement operations, if the land is not suited for grain production for one reason or another then you see free range.

 

On another not we just recently our Iowa Sheep Producers Newletter came, there is an article about the sheep industry in the Imperial Valley California, one note, they don't use dogs "They run 1500 head on 40 acres of alfalfa for seven days and then move them to another paddock. Dogs are not used to move them because the lambs get too excited. They use a lead lamb, which was most likely a 4-H fair lamb broken to halter....the biggest fear is that the lambs will get into the lettuce field and destroy the high value crop" In the article they talk about using the sheep to graze the alfalfa because is does not yield enough during the winter to justify mechanical harvest.

 

Here in Iowa we have lots of small farms with lots of sheep, I don't know anymore where we rank, but at one point we were pretty high on the list as to the number of sheep per capita, problem is not many working dogs. In talking to people, they don't have the time to figure out how to train a dog or to learn how to use a dog in their operation, it's easier to keep doing it the way they are doing it. There's something to focus on, figuring out how to get those people to utilize and appreciate working dogs. Last Saturday we were down at the Colfax sale barn, they could have made things go so much easier with a good dog or two working pens and moving sheep in and out of the auction ring, but not a dog to be seen, probably a good thing, as there was a lot of whipping and poundings, not very good stockmenship. It's my expirence that people that handle livestock like that in person will only abuse it further with a dog.

 

It's kinda interesting to look at all the places dogs could be used then to figure why they are not or if they did would they even be used properly. We've talked about confinements, Wayne used to work in a hog confinement, he said a dog would be great, but the majority of the workers are just there to move hogs from one room to another, wash rooms and vaccinate, their not stockmen and would not be able to use a dog effectively, heck they can't even use a hot shot or paddle without being abusive half the time, imagine if you gave them a dog, they would just use it as a weapon.

 

Deb

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

It's kinda unfortunate that folks think that lower drive means breeding away from working lines, for the most part the over the top high drive misdirected nut cases I've been in contact with were poorly bred border collies in some cases selected as pets or sport dogs and were not good working dogs. Seems like some are breeding high drive but the dog lacks the brain and common sense to control it or to figure out the proper use of that drive. Same holds true with the other working breeds, high drive aussies and ACD's are pretty much useless without stock sense, oh yeah, drive corgis are real entertaining...bark bark bark bark.

 

Deb

 

I have to agree with that your saying. I've seen every type of Bc bred form BYB, to expensive, to flat out randomly running loose to the amish and The supposed highest drive Bc's are nuts.

 

All are dogs are treated the same with the same amt of exercise time and handling and those high drive dogs frequently cant even go out and play with the other bc's as though the pack knows they are nuts.

 

They lack the skills to be able to calm down and rest. They also lack the skills to keep themselves safe. It's like they are purpetually stuck in the 6 to 9 month old stage.

[IronHorse]

Jodi,

Also edited to add - Iron Horse, do you agree with breeding Border Collies as pets?

what is your definition of a pet Border Collie?

[juliepoudrier]

Sorta going off base, but just a note on confinements, <snip> I don't think we have enough farm land to be able to even remotely think of free ranging all that livestock, but planting grain and converting it to a complete pellet allows the land to support the numbers, the manure from the numbers helps the land. When you get far south of us or into the Dakotas you see more free ranging, but the question is, is it because the land will yeild more as pasture then crop land? It seems like the concentration of confinements is directly cooralated to how well the land yields, if it produces more in grain crop then it would yield as pasture then you see confinement operations, if the land is not suited for grain production for one reason or another then you see free range.

 

Hmmmm....this could be a "chicken or egg" thing. It seems to me that if land isn't suitable for pasture it's probably not suitable for crops without some intense input (fertilizer, genetically-modified crops that allow use of certain herbicides/pesticides) and so on. Before the dust bowl years, vast portions of the central part of this country were essentially nothing but pasture (grasslands). I would buy the argument that the farming practices of the time might have ruined its potential now as pasture, but I really don't think that land that can grow a crop automatically can't also grow forage. What it requires is a mindset change. The fact is that corn is cheap, so it is economically viable to pile animals in factories/feedlots and pump them full of grains/pelleted feeds/special mixes. What isn't taken into account is the other costs associated with feedlotting: the cost in medications to keep the animals healthy, the growth hormones to make them spend less time eating those cheap grains before they are of an appropriate size to slaughter, and so on. And that's not even considering the animal welfare and health costs. But those tend to be "hidden" costs for most people. What most folks see is cheap corn = cheap meat. But we are paying the price in other ways for sure.

 

On another not we just recently our Iowa Sheep Producers Newletter came, there is an article about the sheep industry in the Imperial Valley California, one note, they don't use dogs "They run 1500 head on 40 acres of alfalfa for seven days and then move them to another paddock. Dogs are not used to move them because the lambs get too excited. They use a lead lamb, which was most likely a 4-H fair lamb broken to halter....the biggest fear is that the lambs will get into the lettuce field and destroy the high value crop" In the article they talk about using the sheep to graze the alfalfa because is does not yield enough during the winter to justify mechanical harvest.

 

That sounds like folks who have not experience a good work dog, although there is nothing wrong with not using a dog. But to perpetuating the idea that a dog will "excite the lambs too much" is perpetuating a fallacy IMO.

 

Here in Iowa we have lots of small farms with lots of sheep, I don't know anymore where we rank, but at one point we were pretty high on the list as to the number of sheep per capita, problem is not many working dogs. In talking to people, they don't have the time to figure out how to train a dog or to learn how to use a dog in their operation, it's easier to keep doing it the way they are doing it. There's something to focus on, figuring out how to get those people to utilize and appreciate working dogs.

 

I think there are plenty of us out there doing just that whenever we can. I put on demos whenever I'm asked. I am always willing to talk to people about the usefulness of dogs in helping manage livestock, even if those folks come up to me to ask questions right before my run at a trial. I realize that if I want to put my money where my mouth is, I need to be accessible to folks when they ask me questions, even if their timing is inconvenient. I invite people out to the farm to see dogs work and to try their own dogs. I patiently explain to people what to look for in a breeder or a dog.

 

Becca and others have mentioned it on this forum before, and I think it's what you were getting at when you mentioned people breeding specifically for trial dogs: We need to be sure that we also maintain within the breeding population dogs that are easy to train, who pretty much will work well "right out of the box." That's an easy mandate for me because I happen to like a dog who is a very natural worker from the start. That doesn't mean I don't need to put training into such a dog to make it a good trial dog (but I'll admit that I abhor drilling and trial training so I don't do it much with my own dogs), but in general such dogs can pretty easily do basic farm chores with minimal training. These dogs still do exist, and as long as there are everyday folks like me who like such dogs, would breed from such dogs, and who also happen to trial, I don't think we have to get too worried that only "trials dogs" are being bred with the result that most working-bred dogs require too much effort to be useful for the average farmer. My best chore dog is also the one who took me from novice to open before she was three and who has qualified for the finals every year since then. She's a great farm dog and has helped my friends at their farms (being worked by them when I was out of town) on more than one occasion. A littermate of hers went to work on a cattle farm, where she got no formal training--just on the job stuff. That particular farmer was so happy with that dog that he asked the breeder to please repeat the breeding, and she did, and he gladly took another pup. So those types of dogs still exist.

 

Last Saturday we were down at the Colfax sale barn, they could have made things go so much easier with a good dog or two working pens and moving sheep in and out of the auction ring, but not a dog to be seen, probably a good thing, as there was a lot of whipping and poundings, not very good stockmenship. It's my expirence that people that handle livestock like that in person will only abuse it further with a dog.

 

Well, there's no excuse for ignorance and if the management at the stockyard allows unnecessarily rough treatment of the animals, that's what's going to happen.

 

It's kinda interesting to look at all the places dogs could be used then to figure why they are not or if they did would they even be used properly. We've talked about confinements, Wayne used to work in a hog confinement, he said a dog would be great, but the majority of the workers are just there to move hogs from one room to another, wash rooms and vaccinate, their not stockmen and would not be able to use a dog effectively, heck they can't even use a hot shot or paddle without being abusive half the time, imagine if you gave them a dog, they would just use it as a weapon.

 

I really think the best opportunities for promoting working dogs aren't necessarily the confinement operations but rather the small family farms, where a dog could free up some family members to perform additional value-added tasks to increase farm income, as I stated in my earlier post.

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

but I really don't think that land that can grow a crop automatically can't also grow forage.

 

I never said it could not raise forage or was not suitable for forage, if anything it may not be suitable for row crops or be cost effective to put into row crops so it is left as pasture, I was trying say that it may yield and feed more animals per acre raising grain converted to a concentrate then if it would in grass. I really have a tough time seeing that all these acres and acres of corn and soybean are being put in when it could be more productive as pasture free ranging livestock. I'm not sure why farmers decide what they decide, at this point we can only speculate without have actual numbers from any one given area and those nunbers will be different for each area. In our area many are operating confinements and running row crops at the same time, some are just working confinements while others are exclusive row crop. It may be more cost effective to run pasture in one area but not in another

 

Regarding the article from the Imperial Valley, the person who wrote it uses working dogs in her sheep operation, I suspect it is why she brought it up and had asked the question as to why.

 

Deb

[Gary M]

Julie,

I found the beginning of your last post quite interesting considering I had just got done reading this .

 

Sorry for the hijack... back to our regular programming.

[juliepoudrier]

I was trying say that it may yield and feed more animals per acre raising grain converted to a concentrate then if it would in grass.

 

I get that. And my response was "at what true cost?" It may seem cheaper to raise livestock in feedlots on corn and concentrates, but the link posted by Gary, which quotes Michael Pollan, states more clearly what I was attempting to say in my previous post. Corn seems like a cheap way to raise meat, but I wonder if it really is when you take into account all the other things I mentioned (and that are mentioned in the article Gary linked to)? I'd be willing to bet that Federal subsidies and a farming mindset that was established in the late 1800s/early 1900s go a long way toward keeping land in row crops vs. pasture as well.

 

I really have a tough time seeing that all these acres and acres of corn and soybean are being put in when it could be more productive as pasture free ranging livestock.

 

See my comment above and the comments in the article Gary posted. The federal government made it attractive to farmers to plant all those acres and acres of corn and soybeans. Productivity is subjective. From my POV, leaving it as grass that is then converted to meat, with the animals fertilizing as they go is an ideal self-sustaining system, just as were the prairies before the agricultural practices that helped create the Dust Bowl. But for reasons that most folks probably can't even articulate now, the government encouraged row crops and paid farmers to produce tons and tons of corn and soybeans that then go into all sorts of consumer products and feedlotted animals. I'm pretty sure it's not really self-sustaining though.

 

It may be more cost effective to run pasture in one area but not in another

 

That's true, but again we need to look at true total costs. What constitutes cost-effectiveness would certainly change if the government steps out of the picture and quits paying subsidies to corporate farms. As long as the government helps farmers produce cheap crops, then feedlots and nonsustainable farming practices will continue to exist. At least some people are beginning to understand that sustainability ought to play a role in the practice of farming. I hope that more people will come to see that, including the federal government. I think this is beginning to happen, as evidenced by CSA farms and the like (all those things I mentioned in my first post on this subject to this thread). I do think it makes sense to question current farming practices, to suggest that there might be a better way, and so on, and that's what I'm doing. That's how one starts to bring about change.

 

J.

[SS Cressa]

For what it is worth... Roy used to work sheep and he has produce some nice agility dogs and I believe even some working dogs.

 

My sister was interested in a Roy breeding and had contacted the breeder to get more info about Roy and the type of dogs she had produced. The breeder was quite up front about breeding for pets and pointed her to a kennel which would better suit her.

 

While I don't agree in breeding border collies as pets. I think border collies need to be bred with a certain purpose in mind. At least she isn't hiding what she is breeding for.

[IronHorse]

Julie and Deb;

You may find this site interesting if you don't already have it bookmarked.

 

http://www.agcensus.usda.gov/index.asp

[juliepoudrier]

Thanks Ironhorse. I've actually read through a good part of that site. I found the publication I cited to have more detailed and useful information for me. The Ag Census site is good for seeing some trends, but of course it's rather general and not just livestock, and as the NRC report noted, small sheep farms may be underreported in the census.

 

J.