Thoughts on NADAC

[Root Beer]

This past weekend, I took Dean to a NADAC trial. It was his third NADAC trial. We did Jumpers at the first one, but he wasn't really ready so it was just fun experience. Then we went to the one in August where he got his first Tunneler's Q.

 

We tried Touch and Go because I wanted to give him a chance to try out the slatless A Frame and then we did Tunneler's again.

 

My favorite venue is definitely CPE. I chose that because it is definitely the most appropriate venue for Maddie, and I stuck with it because it is absolutely a blast. Since I want to do as much CPE with Maddie as long as I can (she's 8), Dean usually goes with us to CPE trials for now since I don't have time to actively compete in two venues.

 

But I have to say that NADAC is interesting. I can't say I enjoy it as much as CPE, but there is something about it that I do like.

 

They now have the hoop as a regular piece of equipment that can show up in any course (except Tunneler's, not sure about Jumpers) So, there were hoops in the Touch and Go course. I wasn't sure what Dean would think of that. I have a hula hoop in an upright that I use with him at home to train things on the flat, but the NADAC hoops are not hula hoops and they look very different, and he had never seen a hoop in a regular course. I didn't even have a word to use for it, so I just pointed at them and said, "Go!" Dean totally understood and he was very enthusiastic about them, so I became a fan immediately.

 

I also love the slatless A Frame. Dean seemed to like it. He seemed less concerned with his feet than he is on a slatted A Frame. I wasn't sure he would know what it was, but he definitely did.

 

Touch and Go was fun. He flew through the course and didn't miss a beat until an obstacle distrimination between the dogwalk and tunnel. I need to do some re-working with him on dogwalk because of something that happened at a CPE trial last fall, so I wasn't surprised that he refused the dogwalk and took the tunnel. We'll fix that without much trouble this winter.

 

He did get a Q on his Tunneler's run (and a pretty red Second Place ribbon!), and I was happy about that because that makes two Tunneler Q's now!

 

I hear one criticism of NADAC in particular, that the courses are "made for Border Collies". As a Border Collie person, I've often cringed when I hear that, but now that I've done this a bit, I have to say that the courses did suit Dean perfectly - things were wide open and there were a lot of big, arcing movements on the courses. There were points on both courses where I felt like Dean was running himself! Running Maddie on those same courses would not have felt nearly as natural - she does better with things less spread out. Maddie never could have made time on either run even if they had been nice and solid.

 

All in all, I find NADAC very interesting. I like the hoops and the slatless A Frame a lot, and the courses are definitely fun with my fast Border Collie. Oh, and no teeter to freak out my noise phobic boy, which was so, so nice!

 

Still, I'll be happy to go back to CPE in February when all is said and done. There is something about NADAC that keeps me from enjoying it totally even though there is a lot about it that I do like.

[Northof49]

I started competing in NADAC when Sharon first started it way back when, so have seen all the changes that have come over the years. I must say that the changes that have happened over the past 3 -5 years have made me no want to play in it anymore. There has been more emphasis on speed, no matter what Sharon likes to claim. THe biggest problem is that Sharon keeps changing the rules all the time - you can never keep track of what the hell is going on. She invents a new game, then six months later it is gone, or undergoes major changes. There are never any updates posted so competitors have a written record of what is gong on at any particular time.

 

I like the rubber contacts and I also like the no slats on the Aframe. Even when the Aframe was at 5'6" I never saw a dog having problems with executing the Aframe at any trial I went to, including a tiny little Yorkie and tiny poodle crosses. Of cousre, the rubber contacts still do not prevent dogs from slamming their front ends into the ground to stop themselves. That has to do with training techniques.

 

I used to really enjoy NADAC, but it has become so watered down as to what it used to be. Nowadays, the Judges don't even design their own courses - they come from "The Book". The last three years, I spent running the same courses in Excellent as the dogs in Novice did. The only difference was the times, and how close the tunnel was to the dogwalk. The only course challenge in NADAC standard courses now is the tunnel next to the dogwalk or the Aframe, and for some reason most NADAC dogs really suck at that discrimination. Go figure. I could to to one trial west of where I live and run a set of courses, and then go to a trial east of me and run the same exact courses again a few weeks later. Lots of people have run into this.

 

Now that Hoops are in classes other than Hoopers, a bunch of us (including those who still run quite a bit of NADAC) are betting

that within a couple of years there will be no jumps in NADAC at all.

 

I liked Weavers and Touch N GO as I thought it did a good job of challenging dogs to be able to do the weave poles and contacts at speed.

 

I still think it is a good venue for people just starting out in Agility to run their dogs in. Lots of people still enjoy it, but unfortunately it just doesn't do anything for me anymore.

[in2adventure]

NADAC is the only venue we've run in so far because that is all that's available to me in my location. I like it, but the rules change alot and the lack of equipment makes it a bit boring. They are about dog safety, so they say, and that's why there's a lack of equipment. Teeter is to dangerous, dogs get caught in the tire, etc. Whatever I do like the fact that the courses flow very smoothly and the dogs get let out their speed. Hence people claiming it's made for BC's. In AKC and UKC the course seem REALLY tight and don't flow, but it does challenge the ability to do the obsticals. The dogs don't get to let their true speed show though. Just my opinion. The courses also seems a bit tougher on their bodies.

 

I'll be checking out my first CPE trial in Jan. I didn't enter because I want Lucia to take the winter off. I may start running her in CPE next year. Everyone I talked to says they really like it and the competitors are very friendly (AKC and UKC are VERY snooty and uptight IMO). NADAC is VERY beginer friendly, too and they really encourage the bond between handler and dog, not just getting places. I think this is why NADAC is so popular. My goal with Lucia was to get her in open everything and we are almost there. She will have her novice-superior-versitility in another 2-3 trials (fingers crossed). She probably will never see her NATCH because I think jumping a dog higher than their body height is not nessessary. We are in it for fun and I refuse to jump her at 20" (she measures 19") because it makes her sore and tired and the only way to get the elite title is to run her at full height. Her CPE height is 16" and I like that. USDAA is another venue that makes the dogs jump at a ridiculous height. I don't see the point of pushing a dog and the risk of breaking them down for titles.

 

The idea behind hoopers is to test the handlers ability to run a course. ANY dog can run a course. Even a NADAC elite course that relies on the ability to work a dog at a distance can be run without too many issues. I've seen a 12 y/o Q on an elite NADAC course with a dog that's course savy. The ability to truely handle a dog without bobbles shows on a hoopers course. Lucia has Q'd on every hoopers course and we NEVER train for it. It's ALL about how you handle your dog.

 

Have fun with what ever venue you decide on. NADAC is fun and you'll like the speed of the courses and the people, but CPE looks like the better bet in the long run since NADAC seems to be fading out in many areas.

[Root Beer]

Her CPE height is 16" and I like that.

 

And, if you need lower, you can always do Enthusiast and jump her at 12.

 

I run Maddie in Enthusiast and it's perfect. She jumps 16 - her height would be 20 if she were in Regular.

 

I do run Dean at Regular height - 20 - because for him it's very natural, but Maddie is definitely an Enthusiast girl. We can even get an Enthusiast CATCH if she is able to run for at least two more years. I'm not pushing her, but she's got a lot in her yet, so who knows?!!?

[Alaska]

I have nothing negative to say about any other agility venue (besides AKC), but I'm content with my choice to participate in NADAC. I'm also perfectly willing to let other people choose the venue they prefer, but for those who are seeking information about NADAC I did want to attempt to correct a few items above that I believe are factually wrong or misunderstand the logic behind some NADAC choices.

 

Even when the Aframe was at 5'6" I never saw a dog having problems with executing the Aframe at any trial I went to, including a tiny little Yorkie and tiny poodle crosses. Of cousre, the rubber contacts still do not prevent dogs from slamming their front ends into the ground to stop themselves. That has to do with training techniques.

Not just training techniques. One advantage of a lower a-frame is that it does lessen the impact somewhat for dogs that do a stop at the bottom.

 

The last three years, I spent running the same courses in Excellent as the dogs in Novice did. The only difference was the times, and how close the tunnel was to the dogwalk.

In NADAC games courses (tunnelers, weavers, touch n go), there is indeed only one course. At the novice level, a dog can saunter through (been there ), or even have to retry an obstacle or two (been there too ), and still get a Q, but to qualify at the higher levels the intent is that the dog's performance must be accurate and efficient, which generally includes being able to run the course without the handler having to accompany the dog to each obstacle (which I see a LOT of in AKC agility, even at the elite level).

 

Of course I don't know about the trials you went to in the past, but my experience is that currently it is quite rare in the NADAC jumping classes (regular, jumpers) to find that courses do not change between levels. I have occasionally seen a course that does not change, other than time, between novice and open or between open and elite, but normally courses have more obstacles, more lead changes, and more difficult discriminations as one goes up in level, in addition to distance lines being farther from the obstacles and shorter course times that require more efficiency and accuracy to Q. In the chances class, the course may not change, but the number and locations of distance lines do, since distance handling is specifically what is being tested in that class. In hoopers, the course does not change, but the number of "tests" that must be completed, of the total available on the course, increases as you go up in level. Interested persons can read the NADAC guidelines for different courses and levels in the Judges Addendum posted here on the NADAC website.

 

Teeter is to dangerous, dogs get caught in the tire, etc. Whatever

You can say "whatever", but NADAC is not alone in their concern over these issues. Tire crashes are very real and have caused very real injuries to very talented and well-trained dogs. The Oct 08 issue of Clean Run has an article on this very subject (Trainers Forum, p. 20). Clean Run has also addressed the issue of variation in performance between different teeter designs, and specifically the problem of bounce back. If you're interested, you can find the final report from a scientific study that CR commissioned to look at this problem in the Files section of the Clean Run yahoo group (sorry, can't link it here as you have to join the yahoo group to access it)..

 

She probably will never see her NATCH because I think jumping a dog higher than their body height is not nessessary. We are in it for fun and I refuse to jump her at 20" (she measures 19") because it makes her sore and tired and the only way to get the elite title is to run her at full height.

It is absolutely not true that the only way to get "the elite title" in NADAC is to run a dog at "full height" (an arbitrary term IMHO). NADAC has parallel tracks for dogs who run "full height" (which will ultimately lead to the NATCH award) and for dogs who run 4" lower (which will instead lead to the MEDAL award). These awards represent exactly the same thing in achievement, other than the height the dog runs at. All of the NADAC awards (and there are many besides NATCH ) are available in two equivalent version for dogs that run "full height" (called "Proficient" in NADAC) or 4" lower (called "Skilled").

 

The idea behind hoopers is to test the handlers ability to run a course. ANY dog can run a course. Even a NADAC elite course that relies on the ability to work a dog at a distance can be run without too many issues. I've seen a 12 y/o Q on an elite NADAC course with a dog that's course savy. The ability to truely handle a dog without bobbles shows on a hoopers course. Lucia has Q'd on every hoopers course and we NEVER train for it. It's ALL about how you handle your dog.

Don't know which version of hoopers you're referring to as the game has been continually evolving (and still is - the latest is the 3-2-1 version), but I haven't seen a lot of Qs above the novice level. I completely agree that a novice Q in hoopers can be pretty straightforward for many dogs, because the time is generous (as in other NADAC novice classes). Novice hoopers actually seems to be hardest with very fast dogs, as the handler doesn't get the advantage of obstacles slowing the dog down at all on course. Any lag in your handling cues can cost you a test. However, at the higher levels the times are short enough that the dog must be fast AND accurate, and for that the handling must be pretty good. Are you really seeing high Q rates in open and elite hoopers? I'm not.

 

CPE looks like the better bet in the long run since NADAC seems to be fading out in many areas.

Facts to back this statement up? I do know that NADAC is growing overall - three new clubs added last month that I'm aware of. A quick check of the CPE calendar for Jan shows 25 trials, where the NADAC calendar shows 26. CPE seems a bit more weighted towards eastern states and NADAC more in the west, but both venues are widespread and seem to be doing fine as far as I know.

[Root Beer]

I have nothing negative to say about any other agility venue (besides AKC), but I'm content with my choice to participate in NADAC. I'm also perfectly willing to let other people choose the venue they prefer, but for those who are seeking information about NADAC I did want to attempt to correct a few items above that I believe are factually wrong or misunderstand the logic behind some NADAC choices.

 

My intent in posting was not to be negative, but simply to discuss my experiences and impressions and invite others to do the same. I'm not saying you thought that was my intention, but I want to be clear for anyone who might have gotten that impression!!

 

The only venue I really only have anything negative to say about is AKC. My first Agility dog is a mutt and I certainly did not choose a purebred as my second one so I could play in an organization who deemed my other dog unworthy of their hallowed trials. I know, AKC is a purebred club yadda yadda yadda, but my first Agility experience is with a mutt and, whatever flaws the venues may have, I definitely give some breaks to organizations who not only let the mutts in, but treat them as equals to the purebreds.

 

Not just training techniques. One advantage of a lower a-frame is that it does lessen the impact somewhat for dogs that do a stop at the bottom.

 

I like the lower A Frame. The A Frame is lower in CPE, too, although it is slatted. My dogs are fine on a slatted A Frame since they train on one, but the lower height is very nice. Both of them do a running contact and they tend to propel themselves off of a higher A Frame (in training) unless I actually slow them down, but on a lower one, they "dismount" much more naturally even if I'm driving ahead.

 

At the novice level, a dog can saunter through (been there ), or even have to retry an obstacle or two (been there too ), and still get a Q, but to qualify at the higher levels the intent is that the dog's performance must be accurate and efficient, which generally includes being able to run the course without the handler having to accompany the dog to each obstacle (which I see a LOT of in AKC agility, even at the elite level).

 

I'm not saying this to quibble, but this hasn't been my experience at all. I've found, even in novice, that one handling mistake, even with a super fast dog, can make us go overtime! I honestly wonder how one Q's in the higher levels. Dean is going to be that kind of dog, so I am certainly not saying it can't be done, but I know he is going to have to get to the point where he can run extraordinarily independently before he will get to that place.

 

The course times in NADAC are super tight. I'm not saying that to be critical at all - it's just what I've found. I definitely would choose (and have chosen) a different venue for a velcro dog. That said, running a fast dog on a NADAC course is quite the rush and I highly recommend it!

 

NADAC is not alone in their concern over these issues.

 

True. I'm not convinced of the safety of the teeter, in particular. I'm not just saying that because the teeter is a challenge for my noise phobic dog, either. It seems to me that a bigger dog that runs to the end to slam it is taking quite an impact. I'm not criticizing anyone here who has their dog run the teeter that way, I'm just not comfortable with it. I teach my dogs to go to the tip point, tip it, and go to the bottom once it is tipped. But I get a some criticism for that because "you can't win" if your dog does it that way. My point is that there is pressure from some to teach dogs a "fast" teeter, no matter what the long term effect on the dog might be.

 

It's a big plus for me that the teeter is absent in NADAC - especially for Dean because of the noise.

 

Honestly, I thought that I would find NADAC courses boring because there is no tire, no chute, and no spread jumps of any kind (both of my dogs LOVE the spread jumps), but in practice I haven't found that to be so. The sheer speed of the NADAC courses really creates its own interesting aspects and I don't find myself missing different types of jumps. And the addition of the hoops (which Dean also loves) bring back some variety, which I appreciate.

 

I do know that NADAC is growing overall - three new clubs added last month that I'm aware of. A quick check of the CPE calendar for Jan shows 25 trials, where the NADAC calendar shows 26. CPE seems a bit more weighted towards eastern states and NADAC more in the west, but both venues are widespread and seem to be doing fine as far as I know.

 

CPE is definitely growing here, but NADAC trials fill, too. Some long time NADAC folks that I know have quit because of the changes, but many remain active and still enjoy it for what it is. And there are tons of new people in both. The games provide a really nice way for a newbie to get a start.

 

That's why I really can't do both actively right now. Between the two, there are simply too many trials around here, and when I started with Maddie two years ago, that wasn't the case at all!

 

We have a lot of AKC trials in this area, too - I guess more of that than anything. And UKC, which has not enjoyed popularity in this area, is also starting to grow here and some people are starting to get excited about it.

[in2adventure]

As far as hoopers go, my point is that it's a handlers class. The reason so many open/elite pairs don't Q is because the handler doesn't really have a handle on their dog. Who cares if the dog runs like lightening. It's a team sport and the dog should be getting guidance from the handler and be able to run a line without blowing it because they're running to fast. If the handler is late on a cue and the dog messes up....handler's fault.....no Q. I have run the first "type" of hooper as well as 3-2-1 at our last trial. We do fine in novice and I'm pretty sure will do fine in open and elite when we get there. I'm not patting myself on the back by any means, because I have a TON to learn still, but MY intrerest in agility is about control between handler and dog and I pride myself in clean, well controlled runs that in the end are very fast and accurate. This is why we do well in hoopers. Too many people think speed is everything at the higher level, but if you don't have a grasp on handling skills at the novice level, the #of runs VS. Q ratio is very low. I see WAY too many frustrated elite dogs spinning and barking at their handlers because the handlers don't have a clue how to cue their dog properly. I would like to NOT be one of these teams when I reach that level.

 

There is one dog/handler pair that comes to mind though that can make a trial come to a stand still when they run. They run elite NADAC in MT and the dog is a BC/sheltie (i think) who's times are faster than any dog at any height in any class. The pup is a blurr on a course. The handling skills her owner has is what champions are made of. Watching these two run together is amazing and they always draw an applause at the end. No fancy long distance stuff, no show boating (look what my dog can and not yours), just nice, clean, well handled, well trained partnership.

 

I agree about running a fast dog in NADAC is a rush. They are such open courses and can really let a dog run all out. Grady is like Dean and will be my super fast dog. He's going to be my handling challenge for sure but we're already starting to work on this and he reads body language extremely well for 9 months. Lucia is a bit velco,....OK, a lot but is doing great with Chances runs so far. I'm not sure we'll do as well in open and elite though. Too far away for too long and distance lines are WAY out of the question.

 

Like I said, where I live in WY, there are a ton of NADAC venues and clubs. Where I live in NY they have dwinddled down to next to nothing and the club I train with stopped doing them 2 years ago and now only does CPE. I'm seeing this a bit more, IMO, and trials are harder to find in NADAC unless you live in an area that does little or no other venues. This si just something I see in MY areas and I'm sure are different in other regions. I run Lucia in Skilled and will hopefully, someday, get her MEDAL. The comment I made was in reference to the NATCH because that is the title that everyone wants.

 

When it comes to safety, most venues are trying hard to make sure there are no ill happenings to dogs on courses. But with that being said, anything can happen on any piece of equipment to any dog regardless of training. You don't see downhill slalom pulling out their flags because a skiier got tangled in one or mt bikes being taken from the market because someone broke a collar bone. I know, apples and oranges, but come on, things happen. I do like the fact A-frames are lower and don't force a dog to slam into the floor anymore, but I don't see then taking away the whole obstical, just making it better. I once saw a sheltie completely blown off a dog walk at a trial by a gust of wind. Holy cow! We should take them away or make them 1 foot tall Dog crash through jumps all the time. They should be taken away too or maybe remove the bars and let the dog run between the poles with no bar that's safer At this rate, why do agility, the whole things sound far to dangerous. Sorry, rant over. Feel free to bash, but this is JMO.

 

I like NADAC and will do it as long as I can find venues. I'm looking forward to checking out CPE because it looks like a lot of fun and it'll be good to mix things up a bit and try new stuff.

[SoloRiver]

I've found, even in novice, that one handling mistake, even with a super fast dog, can make us go overtime!

 

My experience is a few years out of date, but unless they have significantly changed the course times in NADAC novice (which I suppose is possible) I did not find this to be true. No one would call Solo a super fast dog. He is 50 pounds, built like a horse, and does not corner well. He is fast compared to many non-Border Collies, but not for a Border Collie. I also never handle him at a distance and run with him every step of the way. We never had problems making course time in NADAC novice unless I made many multiple handling errors or he spooked at the judge and I had to retire him. Actually, we really only had two outcomes in agility trials in general: Q, or retire. That's Solo for you.

 

When we were competing in agility, NADAC was my favorite venue: wide open courses that were a joy to run, the option to train in the ring if something went wrong (so Solo didn't learn that when he notices the scary judge, the game is over), and mostly friendly fellow competitors. We also tried USDAA, but found the atmosphere and the fellow competitors to be a huge (giant, enormous, hateful and bitchy truth to be told) turn-off. With all the changes in NADAC since then though I can see why people are fed up with it.

[Root Beer]

As far as hoopers go, my point is that it's a handlers class. The reason so many open/elite pairs don't Q is because the handler doesn't really have a handle on their dog. Who cares if the dog runs like lightening. It's a team sport and the dog should be getting guidance from the handler and be able to run a line without blowing it because they're running to fast. If the handler is late on a cue and the dog messes up....handler's fault.....no Q. I have run the first "type" of hooper as well as 3-2-1 at our last trial. We do fine in novice and I'm pretty sure will do fine in open and elite when we get there. I'm not patting myself on the back by any means, because I have a TON to learn still, but MY intrerest in agility is about control between handler and dog and I pride myself in clean, well controlled runs that in the end are very fast and accurate. This is why we do well in hoopers.

 

Sounds like a class Maddie would do well in if they aren't looking so much for speed in Hoopers. She's very solid, but she moves with me, not out ahead of me. She does well with handling maneuvers like serpentines and those sorts of things, but she works close.

 

I'll keep that in mind. Sometimes when I take Dean to do NADAC, if there is no CPE coming up, I would like to take Maddie just for fun. She is not a fan of tunnels and the classes with a lot of tunnels would tick her off, but Hoopers might be a nice option for her.

 

I agree about running a fast dog in NADAC is a rush. They are such open courses and can really let a dog run all out. Grady is like Dean and will be my super fast dog. He's going to be my handling challenge for sure but we're already starting to work on this and he reads body language extremely well for 9 months. Lucia is a bit velco,....OK, a lot but is doing great with Chances runs so far. I'm not sure we'll do as well in open and elite though. Too far away for too long and distance lines are WAY out of the question.

 

Dean reads body language well, too. He seems to have a nice balance between speed and staying tuned in to me. Maddie is great at being tuned in to me, but she stays close. Speedy was FAST and driven, but could not tune in to me at all on an Agility course (That was pre-CU. Had I known then what I know now . . . ) It's funny how they are all different and it's cool how there are even variations on the one sport - Agility - that allows us, if there are trials in our area - to choose the variety that best suits a given dog!

[in2adventure]

Sounds like a class Maddie would do well in if they aren't looking so much for speed in Hoopers. She's very solid, but she moves with me, not out ahead of me. She does well with handling maneuvers like serpentines and those sorts of things, but she works close.

 

I'll keep that in mind. Sometimes when I take Dean to do NADAC, if there is no CPE coming up, I would like to take Maddie just for fun. She is not a fan of tunnels and the classes with a lot of tunnels would tick her off, but Hoopers might be a nice option for her.

Dean reads body language well, too. He seems to have a nice balance between speed and staying tuned in to me. Maddie is great at being tuned in to me, but she stays close. Speedy was FAST and driven, but could not tune in to me at all on an Agility course (That was pre-CU. Had I known then what I know now . . . ) It's funny how they are all different and it's cool how there are even variations on the one sport - Agility - that allows us, if there are trials in our area - to choose the variety that best suits a given dog!

 

I completely agree! Agility can be for everyone when the right challenges come along. I love having two different types of dogs to train now. It makes me a better handler for BOTH dogs and what we excell in at one thing (or don't), the other dog will be the opposite. I'm looking forward to trialing both and learning how to walk courses for different types of dogs.

 

I think Maddie would do great at hoopers. It takes a very tuned in team to get it right (as long as Mom remembers the course she picked ). there are distance challenges, but they are optional at novice. I'm not sure about open or elite though. A lot of people run their retired dogs in hoopers because it's not physically demanding, but the dog can still play.

 

It sounds like your two are a lot like my two. Grady is currently in a puppy agility class to learn the equipment at a safe height, proper technique and is learning confidence in groups, etc. I take both dogs to a "handlers class" to improve my training and attention span The combo of both is great. The only problem is, I can only train in the winter because of work. Then I spend all summer at trials screwing it up And the whole thing about what I know now, I wish I knew then is soooooo true with Lucia. Like they say, you always screw up your first dog

[Root Beer]

My experience is a few years out of date, but unless they have significantly changed the course times in NADAC novice (which I suppose is possible) I did not find this to be true.

 

It is my understanding that they have. I'm not sure when they tightened up the course times so much, but they definitely did at some point, and I believe it was fairly recent - in the last 3 - 4 years maybe? If you were running when they had a teeter and a tire, then my guess is that you might have been running in NADAC before they tightened the times.

 

My good friend ran the same tunneler's course that I got a Q with Dean on this past weekend. She didn't make a single mistake - the dog took every tunnel and did not stop or spin or anything. The dog was definitely running and, while not a super fast dog, he could definitely not be considered slow - he was running through the whole course, but was always near her. They were under time - and that was in Skilled with the lower jump height, to give them more time!

 

When we were competing in agility, NADAC was my favorite venue: wide open courses that were a joy to run, the option to train in the ring if something went wrong (so Solo didn't learn that when he notices the scary judge, the game is over), and mostly friendly fellow competitors. We also tried USDAA, but found the atmosphere and the fellow competitors to be a huge (giant, enormous, hateful and bitchy truth to be told) turn-off.

 

I've found that the people can vary from place to place and that the local attitude toward one venue or another can be different. In one location I didn't care for the NADAC crowd at all, but the CPE people who trial at the exact same location in trails sponsored by the exact same club are wonderful. The crowd at the NADAC trial we were at last weekend, and other NADAC trials that are local to us are fantastic - very friendly and supportive and relaxed, totally different from the NADAC people at the other place!

 

Then there was a CPE trial I attended one time where the people were awful - I will only go back there if I absolutely must - all because of the people at the trial. CPE has a reputation - well deserved in most cases - for attracting people who are supportive and focused more on enjoying Agility with their dogs. Not at this particular place, though!

[Angel_55]

The only agility organizations we have around here are NADAC and AKC. Angel and I compete in NADAC, and love it. I really don't know what to think about the course times... we just started agility (and are in novice) and on one standard run, we had to reattempt the weave poles 4 times, and still q'ed, and Angel isn't exactly what you would call a speed demon. However, one of my friend runs a Papillon x Dachshund and has yet to Q... on one tunnelers run, the dog didn't turn, spin, or stop running the whole time and still didn't Q.

 

I do like the fact in NADAC that you can reattempt the weave poles if the dog gets a wrong entry, and if the dog goes around a jump, it's not a refusal... both which are unacceptable in AKC (which we won't probably be competing in again).

[Barb Scott]

Facts to back this statement up? I do know that NADAC is growing overall - three new clubs added last month that I'm aware of. A quick check of the CPE calendar for Jan shows 25 trials, where the NADAC calendar shows 26. CPE seems a bit more weighted towards eastern states and NADAC more in the west, but both venues are widespread and seem to be doing fine as far as I know.

 

Facts: In West MI, there are NO NADAC Trials anymore, but there are at least 2, sometimes 3 CPE Trials. In fact, I only know of one club in the state that still holds NADAC Trials and there are at least 2 or more CPE Trials almost every single month of the year. The local club that switched from NADAC to AKC did so because of the constantly changing equipment and rules.

Barb S

[Barb Scott]

Facts to back this statement up? I do know that NADAC is growing overall - three new clubs added last month that I'm aware of. A quick check of the CPE calendar for Jan shows 25 trials, where the NADAC calendar shows 26. CPE seems a bit more weighted towards eastern states and NADAC more in the west, but both venues are widespread and seem to be doing fine as far as I know.

 

MORE FACTS: I just checked the NADAC trial calendar that lists 0 trials in MI for the next 12 months (plenty in other states tho) and the CPE calendar that lists 9 trials in MI just until May (and I know there are trials not yet on the calendar during that time period). So maybe NADAC is growing in lots of areas but certainly not here in Michigan. It may be part of our bottomed out economy, however!

Barb S

[Pat W.]

I actually train under a NADAC judge but when hoopers first came out I asked her to explain it for me and she was at a loss. Both she and her husband who do NADAC primarily are getting a little frustrated with all the changes of equipment and rules, but it can be fun in a run like your hair is on fire kinda way. I like it because I can train in the ring and not get whistled out which is great for proofing things for a young dog, but that said I am a USDAA person and always will.

[MaggieDog]

I have a new agility friend encouraging me to try other venues (I run exclusively USDAA right now), so this thread is great.

 

I do have to say regions must be very different - I've found nothing but great people at the USDAA trials I go to here in SC/NC and back in Indiana. There are people I look at and feel sorry that they take things so seriously, but I'm sure that occurs in all venues and it doesn't affect me in the slightest.

 

Ziva just started trialing in earnest now that she's almost 2 and I gotta say I loved the courses we had this go round - she Q'd in 2 of 3 runs. I ran Maggie at the same level but in Performance vs. Championship and I learned even more about the differences inherent in a slow vs. fast dog - I love that both of my girls can do well in USDAA. Even slow Mags pulled out 3 Qs in her 3 classes.

 

eta: I may be a bit biased with USDAA - it drives me nuts when people tell me "it's all about having fun" when I mention running in tournament classes "just for fun and to prep for the real classes where we can get Qs" - well yea it is all about fun, but I really get a lot of reinforcement from those maroon Q ribbons and there's nothing wrong with wanting to do well.

[Root Beer]

. . . it drives me nuts when people tell me "it's all about having fun" when I mention running in tournament classes "just for fun and to prep for the real classes where we can get Qs" - well yea it is all about fun, but I really get a lot of reinforcement from those maroon Q ribbons and there's nothing wrong with wanting to do well.

 

I'm right there with you!

 

My friend always says that she enjoys NQing in Agility more than any other sport because Agility is self-rewarding. Still, those Q ribbons are always exceptional icing on the cake and I love it when we get to take them home!

 

It is all about having fun, of course, but I am always hoping we will do well enough to Q at the same time. I find I can balance both things pretty well.

[in2adventure]

Yup, it's all about the fun and when they or I stop enjoying it, we'll stop. Until then, seeing all those pretty ribbons hanging on my dog's crate at the end of the day will keep me coming back for more

[Jumpin Boots]

I have been running in NADAC for 4 years and just started trialing my third dog 3 months ago. The biggest complaint

I hear about NADAC is concerning the constant rule changes and equipment changes. Several people I train with refuse to

run NADAC anymore simply on that fact, my opinion on this has always been what's the big deal. If I get to a trial and see a

course or turn I don't like, I don't run the course that way, I make up my own. Now I realize this can be quite frusturating b/c

you are immediately donating your entry, but isn't your dogs safety more important. And I would like to mention, in the four

years of running NADAC there has only been one time I didn't like the entrance onto a teeter (when it still exsisted)

and chose to change the course for my dogs confidence as we had been having some issues. Now concerning the rule

changes, even though I have tried to read my dogs the rule book, they really don't get the point so the only one that needs

to understand the rules is the handler and I really don't feel that the handler needs to understand the rules perfectly. You need

to understand the concept of the game, but besides hoopers all the NADAC courses are numbers so there really isn't much

to memorize as far as rules go. And worse case scenario you make up your own course and leave with your dog happy and

loving it's job.

 

Not long ago I was at a trial that where there was a hoop in a weavers course, as I'm walking the course I over hear this other

elite handler freaking out about how her dog is going to handle it, and yes this was an elite dog who has run hoopers before.

I feel that if you have done the training necessary to be trialing at the appropriate level that the dog shouldn't have an issue

at all. Most of the time it's us, as handlers, that over think something and stress our dogs out that cause problems. My newest

dog saw his first hoop at a trial, but b/c I have worked with him on basic commands and mind games, he knew as soon as I

pointed at it to run right through. Now I realize some dogs wouldn't do that, but what's the worst that happens, you do a little

training in the ring, which NADAC has always been very patient about in my opinion and you move on.

 

Sorry not to be long winded, but one last point about NADAC courses being for fast, bc type dogs. NADAC courses are suppose

to be natural and flowing without having to trick the dog on a bunch of call offs and such. So yes, the feeling that your dog

may run part of the course w/out your guidance is part of running a NADAC course. In my experience of watching people with

shy or easily confused dogs, having to deal with a bunch of call off's only makes them shut down more versus having the

ability to pick up some momentum and speed in a NADAC course. And yes, there are of course some really slow, careful dogs

who would probably never Q in NADAC, or not at the higher levels, but there are all sorts of Novice awards for people to earn

and it may just boil down to there being a better association out there for them.

 

Hope to not have offended anyone, just my 2 well maybe 3 cents.

 

Julie, Boots, Renoir, Smudge and Mama Dog

[doggietrio]

We participate in all the venues available in our area, except AKC (USDAA, CPE, NADAC, ASCA).

 

Each venue has its pros and cons. But, NADAC vs. CPE happens alot where we do agility (Northern CA).

 

CPE is a fun venue geared towards novice handlers. You can have many faults on course and still qualify. Dogs earn titles quickly and handlers get hooked. The problem IMO with that is, often handlers move dogs up to the next level too quickly, before they and their dogs are ready. But, CPE is good for slower dogs and also gives dogs that may not necessarily do well in other venues a chance to play with their handlers and just have fun.

 

NADAC, on the other hand, has an emphasis on speed and distance. The courses are straight forward. Many dogs with motivation issues would benefit by starting in NADAC, because there are fewer call offs and less handling is needed. And, both dog and handler can be rewarded by staying at the lower levels by earning Outstanding and Superior awards (titles). However, as the dogs progress through the levels, the times get much tighter, and often the handlers are required to work at more distance to be successful. This is when I hear many folks complaining about "tight times" and the like (we run a beagle/lab/terrier mix, and she is not a fast dog by any stretch and has no trouble with the tight times, so...I think this is a training issue, personally).

 

I don't think one venue is better than the other - they are just different. Each is geared toward a different dog/handler training/running style, and that's great.

[Root Beer]

Each venue has its pros and cons. But, NADAC vs. CPE happens alot where we do agility (Northern CA).

 

That made me chuckle! Battle of the venues . . . dun dun DUN!!!

 

Seriously, I'm glad to have good access to both!

 

CPE is a fun venue geared towards novice handlers. You can have many faults on course and still qualify. Dogs earn titles quickly and handlers get hooked. The problem IMO with that is, often handlers move dogs up to the next level too quickly, before they and their dogs are ready. But, CPE is good for slower dogs and also gives dogs that may not necessarily do well in other venues a chance to play with their handlers and just have fun.

 

All true. That said, I wouldn't want anyone to get the impression that CPE is a cakewalk. I have found it surprisingly challenging. We've NQ'ed on a number of occasions for both dog and handler errors.

 

But it's definitely a venue where a more pet-type dog can succeed, which is why is the perfect division for Maddie!

 

I don't think one venue is better than the other - they are just different. Each is geared toward a different dog/handler training/running style, and that's great.

 

I find the same thing.

[Jumpin Boots]

I think that's a great point you empasized there...often you see handlers get caught up in the titling game and they stop looking

at their dogs comfort level and whether or not they really have the skills to move up to the next level...well worded Rootbeer

 

Julie

[in2adventure]

I just volunteered at a CPE trial today. I did gate steward and scribe for all the events. It was a great way to check out the venue without commitment. The people were friendly and the courses nice. Very different than NADAC. Much closer/tighter equipment, but the runs flowed and didn't seem choppy. I could see where a blazing fast dog could have a few problems, but all in all I liked it.

 

I won't be giving up NADAC anytime soon, but it'll be nice to add another venue for a change and different training practices.

[Rave]

CPE tighter than NADAC? haha Can't say that's been my experience! CPE here has been very NADAC-like, i.e. simple boring courses with very little challenge. I mean the biggest challenge I saw in CPE was remembering to tell the judge what color course you were running as you stepped to the line. That shouldn't be the biggest challenge...lol. BUt that's just my opinoin, some people need the easy, myself I prefer the challenges and competition of USDAA.

[in2adventure]

Since I've only seen one CPE trial, so far, it is my only comparison. And by comparison, it was WAY tighter than any NADAC courses I've seen. I agree it is also geared toward the 'have fun with your dog" crowd, but it takes some skill regardless. To improve handling skills, I train on intermediate and advanced AKC/USDAA courses all the time and know they are much more technical than NADAC.

 

Not everyone has the ability to do USDAA though. Because of my location, I would make 2 or 3 a year, max, so I don't see the point. NADAC or AKC are my only summer choices and CPE, AKC and NADAC for winter. And winter is VERY limited, so I choose to only train in the winter, not compete. I refuse to give AKC a penny of my money, so that leaves me with one choice in the summer.

 

Maybe someday I'll be married to a sugar daddy that can fly me all over the country to compete my dogs, but until then, I'm pretty happy (and so's my pocket book) with the laid back NADAC trials.