Owning a "working" dog

[Anda]

Well, but I doubt Indians are much better at selling spices than, say, Romanians, just because "it's in their blood" and that generations and generations of Indians have proven their spice selling skills and selected their mates based on this criterion.

 

[herdcentral]

I think what she was trying to say with this statement, is that a person can do whatever they like no whatter what there nationality, but that some people have the idea that just because your say, Indian, you should be selling spices.

A BC can do a variety of different things, and so can people, just because you come from America doesnt mean you have to work at Mcdonalds and just because a dog happens to be a border collie doesnt meen it has to be herding to be a useful, working dog.

 

This is also how I interpreted her post. Dogs and people shoudnt be stereotyped.

 

I have come to understand the philosophy of the board regarding breeding BCs and there will be people like the man who will be passionate about their views and voice them especially to youngsters like Haleigh. Youngsters can also have passionate ideas ( I think back to my student days). That is life across a whole spectrum of issues. Some people are just more blunt and sometimes rude in how they communicate especially if they become jaded with what they are seeing- Haleigh just copped the brunt at the time because she represented what this man does not agree with! It is black and white for him and Haleigh needs to understand this, learn from it and move on.

 

I do obedience, agility and go for long hikes, my dogs are my constant companions, my BC is a barbie (I know that now) they will never see a sheep or cattle but their purpose in my life is huge. To Haleigh, Joy teaches her many things and helps to mold her into a responsible and thoughtful adult. Dogs are such wonderful creatures in whatever form they take. BCs are going to continue be a part of domestic land sporting life because they are wonderful versatile dogs. There are going to be people who very much resent this and that is actually a fair point of view.

 

And on the topic of stereotyping, many years ago when I was a young graduate and one of the very few females working as a professional in the agricultural industry you should have heard some of the abuse and demeaning insults I copped from some older male farmers! while their wives either tried to marry me off to their sons or were suspicious that I might be seducing their grumpy old man (as if) in the back paddock. These days thankfully it has very much changed!

[storminthenight]

I was just using that as an example, lol, since Haleigh used to.

honestly I have no idea what Indians would be best at if they HAD to do a certain job. Maybe make curry? lol.

I'm English, but I have clue what we are suppost to be best at either, making tea and crumpets maybe? lol.

Joking, joking, dont kill me, lol.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

ok, really...I'd have to start laughing at somebody who said that to me. I'd probably bust a gut. And I probably would have answered "yeah, well back in that day we used to shoot people on the spot for mouthing off like you."

 

No he meant a white border collie. Dal is a really laid back dog he lived his first 7 months at a working farm. He knows better. Edited to add that hey I just looked at his pic and after 3 years his nose is actully filling in quite a bit. I wonder if by the time he's 6 it will be all brown.

[haleigh]

I think what she was trying to say with this statement, is that a person can do whatever they like no whatter what there nationality, but that some people have the idea that just because your say, Indian, you should be selling spices.

A BC can do a variety of different things, and so can people, just because you come from America doesnt mean you have to work at Mcdonalds and just because a dog happens to be a border collie doesnt meen it has to be herding to be a useful, working dog.

 

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was trying to say. Again, I didn't mean to insult people (and no, just because you're Japanese doesn't mean you don't have to make sushi ) but what I meant to get across is I don't think people should be basing all terms of "working" based on breed and origin alone, since there is so many ways of working.

 

And how I kind of compared that nationalities is that there is certain jobs (even if they are from a long time ago) that pertain to certain geographical areas. It was a little weak, and looking back now, a bit insensitive, so I'm sorry if that came across as insensitive.

 

Well, but I doubt Indians are much better at selling spices than, say, Romanians, just because "it's in their blood" and that generations and generations of Indians have proven their spice selling skills and selected their mates based on this criterion.

That's another thing I was trying to avoid...I wasn't saying that they were better, or anything like that, but again. Just trying to say that just because you're a certain nationality or breed, doesn't mean jobs should limit to what people consider 'working'. I've seen a few border collies whoop dogs like mals and gsd's at schutzund...would you not consider that 'working' just because they aren't herding? That's pretty much my point.

[haleigh]

but using the term working dog for obedience, agility, and depending on the chores around the house(is it more tricks?) isn't correct./quote]

 

Her chores around the house vary...she opens doors for me, closes drawers, find things, turns off lights and other "tricks" service dogs do.

 

Another thing that I honestly don't like sharing is that fact that mentally and emotionally, I have a lot of issues. I have chronic dysthymia (in a more severe form), which may not seem that bad, but Joy regulates my moods. I can go into these phases where the only thing that can get me out of bed is the fact that I have a life depending on me which is my dog. When I get obsessive about something (like cleaning a sink, for example) Joy somehow "learned" she needs to stop me, or I'd scrub that spot for an hour straight. I'm not sure what it would take to qualify her as my ESD, but with everything she's done for me, and everything I couldn't do without her, I would certainly consider her a working dog. Maybe that's the missing link people are missing (not saying that I'm trying to convince people that she is a working dog, which is my complete OPPOSITE intentions)

[SoloRiver]

The inherent problem is in comparing human geographical variation to dog breeds. There is no comparison, and I wish everyone had to take a class in evolutionary biology and another one in physical anthropology to make this kind of thing more obvious. Repeat after me: dogs are not people. People are not dogs.

 

Diane, I guess if you are half Japanese you are only supposed to make sushi half of the time. The other half of the time I guess you can do sword dances wearing kilts, or whatever it is that white people are supposed to do. Excuse me, I'm going to go make some kimchee now, and then when I am done I guess I should take care of some dry cleaning.

[haleigh]

The inherent problem is in comparing human geographical variation to dog breeds. There is no comparison, and I wish everyone had to take a class in evolutionary biology and another one in physical anthropology to make this kind of thing more obvious. Repeat after me: dogs are not people. People are not dogs.

 

okay: Dogs are NOT people and people are NOT dogs.

I guess these are some classes I would actually take in college that I didn't know about!

And by the way, would you send me some kimchee? It is absolutely delicious and no one in my little corn field town knows how to make it

[vaporflowers]

When internet drama gets to be too much, I just look at this:

 

 

Visualizing that generally makes me smile no matter what people say to me.

[haleigh]

Jen I just LOL'd! Thanks! Joy just looked at me like I was a blinkin' idiot!

 

It just stinks that in terms of stuff like this I usually have the short straw since I'm the youngest and I can quite honestly bereckless with words, and it'll take a couple days for me to wake up in bed and go "OH SNAP, I really should have said that differently". And I really have woken up in the middle of the night thinking about stuff like that

[mjk05]

SS Cressa wrote:

While I am not saying you don't work your dog in agility or obedience or tracking to label your dog as a working dog isn't accurate.

When I talk to other people about my dogs and what I do. I tell them I train them in agility and obedience or whatever.

 

If I got a pup from working parents I would be expecting the pup's parent to actually be herding livestock and would be extremely upset if I found out the breeder meant agility/tricks/and or obedience. Or if I was a breeder and a potential buyer told me that the pup was going to a working home and found out the pup went to an agility home I would be furious. but maybe that is just me!

 

I'd agree with that.

And with Lenajo.

 

And again, that it's best to choose not to get too upset. What often happens on these boards and similar forums is that discussions of breeding "ethics" (eg breeding for working ability or whatever) get interpreted as attacks on individual dogs. Fido's owner interprets comments against sports breeding as suggestions that Fido, who comes from a sport breeder, shouldn't exist. Sometimes, especially with the "breeding ethics" discussions (or the "rescue ethics" discussions, and probably some other topics) it's important to separate points about the breed as a whole from feelings about individual dogs.

 

And even if someone is saying something directly about your dog, you can choose to be hurt and upset or not. It's sometimes hard, but it's easier to just choose to let it go. I was at a sheepdog clinic once with my young dog and the clinician (who was having a bad day, granted) made some comments to the spectators along the lines that he'd shoot my dog ( if he owned him (apparently he'd be most useful to fertilise fruit trees or something). I knew my dog wasn't great, he never will be, but I was gutted to hear it put like that from someone I admired and respected. Anyway, after I stewed on it for a while, my other half told me to get over it, and pointed out that the clinician probably would shoot B if he owned him, but he doesn't own him, I do, and since I'm obviously not going to follow those instructions, wouldn't it be more useful to get on with enjoying B and training him to the best of our abilities? He was right. B is a mediocre sheepdog at best, he has some faults that wouldn't be tolerated by most people, but he's also a great dog in lots of other ways, and I love him. Once I stopped worrying about what everyone else thought and got on with enjoying my dog, we actually started to get our act together and we're trialling and doing OK.

 

No-one's ever going to agree 100%, especially on these sort of topics, but is it really worth getting knickers twisted about what some random person thinks, whether it's about border collies/breeding/dogs in general or your dog in particular?

[DeltaBluez Tess]

>>Excuse me, I'm going to go make some kimchee now, <<

 

 

I'll trade you some homemade teriyaki sauce for kimchee!!!

 

 

I hear that kimchee makes a heart heal quicker...so send some quick as I am in the hospital tomorrow or another heart procedure. It's a cardio version....which they shock the heart into normal rhythm. They did it once before but it failed since the new wall failed. Now with the *clam shell* working, they will do it again tomorrow.......kimchee and sushi will make me feel better.

 

Diane

[Bo Peep]

Everyone knows not only am I new to border collies, I am new to training, owning a dog (as my own), and I'm pretty young for this major responsibility to be put on my shoulders. This doesn't, however, give people bashing rights to how I raise my dog, and find other ways to insult me.

 

I pride myself on being a quick learner, and I have put all my resources into being able to take care of my dog. I got Joy when I was 13, and I took all the responsibility for her. With the exception of her reactivity to other dogs, she is extremely well rounded, and is one of the best trained dogs I've ever met.

 

I'm not saying where, or mentioning names, but I've recently got into a fight with some older guy (a breeder, to add to the mess) who, to pretty much sum it up, "Im an insolent brat who's ruining border collies because she's not a working dog, and how dare I even attempt to raise such a dog, and she's going to die a failure". There was more, but that was the gist of it.

 

This man didn't mention his views on a working dog. I know from reading and interacting with other people on the board that the general view on a working border collie is having a dog who herds as a "living" be it trials or on a farm. Joy may not be a herding dog, but in my eyes she is a working dog. When I'm not at school, she is working some way or another till the time we go to bed. Either its practicing tracking, obedience training, helping with chores around the house, or her agility. For all this man knew, I could have been disabled in a wheel chair and Joy was my helper. Does that count as owning a working dog?

 

I think of dog breeds like people. You have Africans, Indians, Americans, Mexicans, Japanese, French...etc. and each of them have "jobs" for their specific area. Who are we to say that an Indian woman who is a neurologist isn't a working woman because she isn't selling spices on a street corner?

 

I'm not trying to be stereotypical, but the point I'm trying to make is that herding, tracking, hunting, sending notes to people and other natural or original jobs like that aren't the only jobs a dog can have, and I'm not going to sit back and let someone insult me over something silly like this.

 

ETA: I have issues with spelling stupid words like 'met' instead of 'meant' when I'm ranting, lol

 

 

I say "enjoy" your dog- no matter what you do with it. I purchased Usher as a service dog and now he is getting me back into the working field- therapy- I call it. It's YOUR dog, you can do whatever you want with it. Agility, obedience, flyball. Heck, no one is turning you in for a PAL or ILP dog. It's your choice. Just keep your dog happy and active. That's the best advice I can give you.

P.S. My spelling isn't so good either, especially in a dark room. LOL.

[mbc1963]

When internet drama gets to be too much, I just look at this:

... Visualizing that generally makes me smile no matter what people say to me.

 

Oh, LOL! All these years and I've never seen that. It's beautiful.

 

I used to visit a forum where a certain poster would stay online for ten, fifteen, maybe twenty hours at a time, verbally "taking down" anyone who expressed an opinion she disagreed with. She endlessly insulted folks, and you could watch her getting angrier and angrier as the debates went on.

 

The 'net is a fascinating place. Typed conversations rarely flow like real ones: people say things in a way they'd never say them in real life. Very direct, and uninflected, and with absolute certainty.

 

Mary

[Root Beer]

The 'net is a fascinating place. Typed conversations rarely flow like real ones: people say things in a way they'd never say them in real life. Very direct, and uninflected, and with absolute certainty.

 

In face to face conversation, of course you have tone of voice and facial expression to help clarify meaning behind words.

 

On the other hand, in face to face conversations, you often get interrupted before you get to make your point and those involved in the conversation can't go back to previous statements and quote pieces of conversations in the same way. And you usually don't have time to think out what you have to say, revise it just right, and truly consider whether or not to say it before putting it out there as you can with posts.

 

As you say, the Internet is a fascinating place.

[Laurae]

And, perhaps the biggest thing missing in electronic conversations is the instant feedback the speaker gets in face-to-face conversations, via the facial expressions and body language of the person/people receiving the communication. The speaker knows instantly to tone down a point or clarify before feelings get hurt, etc.

[Debbie Meier]

It's also easy for the reader to put their own personal feelings, influxations and assumptions into a post. Since in many cases the reader does not know the poster, reading the post incorrectly can take the original post out of context, taking a post personally is what creates the hurt feelings. If you read general posts from the standpoint that they are intended to be taken personally most all could be taken as personal attacks to someone.

 

Deb

[sandra s.]

Dog Fact Reciters get on my t**s in general. What's so hard to understand about the word "theory", and why do people instantly feel superior if you refuse to join in with the holy Dog Fact Recitation Ritual? "You haven't had her for long, right?" is a far too common reaction to my refusal to nod eagerly when being preached at. And old men with "Dog Knowledge" are the worst by far in my experience. It's possible that he never even "saw" you, these guys just like to hear themselves.

 

It does hurt though. Once I got insulted pretty badly by an old professor, when I refused to agree with his Dog Facts. Looking back, I can see how much he was hurting - he was a serious alcoholic, hiding behind the bus to take a swig etc. Plus, his macho colleage had been making fun of him in front of all the students for days. I was just the final straw, nothing to do with dogs after all. But back then it hurt so much that I never talked to him again (and holding a grudge is something I'm normally not capable of).

[afrancis]

And, perhaps the biggest thing missing in electronic conversations is the instant feedback the speaker gets in face-to-face conversations, via the facial expressions and body language of the person/people receiving the communication. The speaker knows instantly to tone down a point or clarify before feelings get hurt, etc.

 

Or old-fashioned hand-written critiques. Sandra's mention of an old professor reminded me of one of my graduate professors who called my first post-grad paper on Michelangelo a "feminist diatribe"! As you can imagine, I was mortified, not to mention insulted since I didn't consider myself someone with a feminist agenda , let alone any agenda; just a poor art history grad student in over her head that first year! But yeah, it was more about what was going on in his head than who I was. But certainly a more respectful and informative analysis of my essay would have had a much better result, for me anyway!

Ailsa

[mbc1963]

On the other hand, in face to face conversations, you often get interrupted before you get to make your point and those involved in the conversation can't go back to previous statements and quote pieces of conversations in the same way. And you usually don't have time to think out what you have to say, revise it just right, and truly consider whether or not to say it before putting it out there as you can with posts...

 

Definitely true. One of the things that I think sometimes flames 'net fires is when people quote other people back to themselves, with counterpoint responses. This can work well when people are on the same page, sort of agreeing to debate points intellectually. It's less successful when one person is just shooting the breeze, having (what she perceives to be) a casual conversation, and suddenly finds her words being quoted back, dissected, and refuted. Because this doesn't happen the same way in "real world" conversations, it's a strange thing to interpret - at least the first few times it happens to you online.

 

Sometimes I think I'm casually chatting, and suddenly find that I'm debating, and have to turn on the "revise and consider" glasses before I post what's going through my mind. (Sometimes I succeed in self-editing, and sometimes I get het up and later regret what I post!)

 

I will say, though, that learning to self-edit and consider the wiseness of posting my sentiments in Internet forums has vastly improved my ability to self-edit and consider the wiseness of speaking my mind in the "real world." It's been really good for my work skills, phrasing delicate or controversial opinions to bosses and parents of my students.

 

Mary

[Ringo's Dad]

Well this post was really fun. Just remember "When all is said and done...more is said than done"

Why am I nervous about this being taken wrong.......

 

Side note: I sure like all of you......great hearts even when don't agree......appreciate the chance to share in this world of bc's

george

[AllieMackie]

There has been talk of kimchee. THIS is srs business.

 

Now you must send some to everyone on the board. Go, or I'll troll!

 

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

Well this post was really fun. Just remember "When all is said and done...more is said than done"

Why am I nervous about this being taken wrong.......

 

Side note: I sure like all of you......great hearts even when don't agree......appreciate the chance to share in this world of bc's

george

 

 

The bottom line here is we all love our dogs and do our best as we understand it to care for them. I learn alot here. People are great for showing me a new website or a new training style I'd not heard about. It's nice too because you dont ahve to agree nor are you required to do what people say.

[painted_ponies]

I hear that kimchee makes a heart heal quicker...so send some quick as I am in the hospital tomorrow or another heart procedure. It's a cardio version....which they shock the heart into normal rhythm. They did it once before but it failed since the new wall failed. Now with the *clam shell* working, they will do it again tomorrow.......kimchee and sushi will make me feel better.

 

Diane

 

Wow, Diane, hope everything goes well. You'll be in my thoughts and prayers.

 

I'd send food, but, well, perhaps southern food is not just the thing to help your heart.

[Debbie Meier]

There has been talk of kimchee. THIS is srs business.

 

Now you must send some to everyone on the board. Go, or I'll troll!

 

 

 

All this talk about sushi and kimchee, makes me realize how different we all are, I don't even know what kimchee is, never heard of it before this thread and the thought of sushi makes my skin crawl, it's right in there with herring and caviar, I just can't do it. We're meat and potatoes eaters pretty much through and through, oh yeah Wayne loves catfish..(ick..)

 

Hmm, sorta like thinking about eating horse meat or dog, I just can't do it, but then there are people that live on it and think those that don't are missing out on the greatest thing.

 

Deb