Protocols for Aggression During Meetings

[mbc1963]

Those of you who have read my posts know my dog Buddy is reactive with some other dogs. (Used to be human reactive, but he seems to be pretty much over that.) He can play nicely with other dogs he likes, and will control himself completely IF he can get familiar with another dog slowly, so that he gets to trust them.

 

The problem comes when strange dogs come right up and get in his face. Once in a great while, he's fine, and sometimes he's a bit testy, and sometimes he's REALLY testy. He'll attempt to drive the dogs off. He does back right off and calm down if they leave. He also has lovely relationships with some dogs who used to be his enemies - when other dogs learn not to get up in his face, he relaxes completely. Plays with them. I'd say this whole thing is a heightened version of the reaction adults dogs have when they're teaching older pups manners. He also plays the fun police - doesn't want other dogs getting too rowdy.

 

This problem is greatly increased when he's on leash. The inability to maneuver his body where he wants to go seems to make him more reactive. For a while, I thought I had found a solution, and was squatting down to hold his collar when strange dogs approached. He seemed calmer in that situation - not feeling me putting tension on the leash "just in case." Alas, it seems to have backfired - he seems to now understand that when I'm holding his collar, he's even more restrained than he is when he's on a short leash. Gotta regroup, because I feel like I'm taking steps backwards lately!

 

I recognize that my own tension is probably part of this equation. When I don't leash Buddy, he has a much higher "meet friendly" ratio: probably 9 good to 1 bad meet. Problem is, that 1 in 10 bad meet can be really problematic if the other dog doesn't back off, but chooses to stick up for himself. Plus, then I'm the lady with the unleashed problem dog in the park. Not OK with the other owners, not OK with me.

 

On leash in places where other dogs are on leash, things are 100% fine. Buddy can walk right past another dog, even one who is lunging and growling at us. He's no fool; he reads other dogs body language warning signals, and respects them absolutely. I let Buddy off leash to run in the woods, and leash him when we see unknown dogs approaching. (He has a really reliable freeze, and will stop immediately and let me leash him whenever I ask.) I think my telling him to stop and wait for the leash actually cues up his watchfulness: he expects that if I'm asking him to go on leash, there's a dangerous encounter about to occur.

 

So, I need to make some changes.

 

I believe this can be fixed. This isn't an aggressive dog; it's a dog who wants to avoid confrontation, but sees certain close movements from another dog as a dire threat, and responds to them. (Not that I think it matters much, but he was a street dog for a couple years, and has at least one scar on his muzzle, as if he took a puncture bite there.)

 

My goal is to have a dog who can be relaxed enough to meet other dogs on leash without reacting ... and maybe have a dog who is 100% reliable to meet off leash.

 

The way I managed reducing Buddy's human reactivity was to have humans approach slowly, no eye contact, and give him treats whenever possible. After 3.5 years, we're to the point where Buddy will actually approach humans with cautious hope, as if they are probably going to be his friend. (He used to refuse to approach, even growling and barking from across the street.) He moves TOWARD people now, rather than trying to get away. This is what I'd like to accomplish with dogs. The treats would be a great association for him (dog approaching = fun fun treats!) but I worry: he's protective of food if a strange dog is around. Alas, human approaches are much easier to plan and manage than dog approaches. I rarely meet an uncontrolled child running at my dog, but I often meet an uncontrolled dog.

 

Sorry for the long, long post, but I wanted to include all the details possible, so the picture is clear. Has anyone had experience reshaping this particular behavior? I'd love to hear protocols that work. Control Unleashed? Feisty Fido? (Silly me, I gave that book away after I thought I'd made all the progress I was going to make!) Would love to hear suggestions, opinions, things you are SURE will work, things you are sure won't work.

 

Thanks in advance for any help!

 

Mary

[Root Beer]

Sorry for the long, long post, but I wanted to include all the details possible, so the picture is clear. Has anyone had experience reshaping this particular behavior? I'd love to hear protocols that work. Control Unleashed? Feisty Fido? (Silly me, I gave that book away after I thought I'd made all the progress I was going to make!) Would love to hear suggestions, opinions, things you are SURE will work, things you are sure won't work.

 

Thanks in advance for any help!

 

Mary

 

I think that two things in particular from CU could help you guys. The "Dog in Your Face" game and "Parallel Games".

 

The dog in your face game teaches the dog a protocol for looking at the dog coming toward him, accepting it as something that happens as no big deal, and orienting to you by default. It's one of those things you would teach on a cue, but once the dog has the idea, you probably wouldn't need to go around cueing it all the time. (Edited to clarify - this exercise conditions the dog to orient to you as in a "check in" - it does not attempt to force the dog to stare at you constantly or something unnatural like that!)

 

The parallel games are exercises that teach the dog to function normally when other dogs are running around, running toward them, etc.

 

Of course I recommend the book, but CU can be tough to learn from the book alone. I'm finding this in the classes that I'm teaching. Some of the students read the book and did not understand things clearly/correctly. Seeing things demonstrated is a big help. There's a CU DVD coming out soon - hopefully very very very soon! I think getting that would be the best thing you could do because there really is nothing like seeing a correct demo to learn the techniques in a way that's optimal.

 

treats would be a great association for him (dog approaching = fun fun treats!) but I worry: he's protective of food if a strange dog is around. Alas, human approaches are much easier to plan and manage than dog approaches. I rarely meet an uncontrolled child running at my dog, but I often meet an uncontrolled dog.

 

One technique that I've found to be very good with dogs who get squiffy when other dogs approach a person who has food is this:

 

1. Find a dog that your dog knows and is comfortable with. Have them both sit, feed both dogs a few treats, then release and walk away.

 

Repeat a few times.

 

2. Once the dogs sit peaceably for the food, tell your dog to "stay", then feed the other dog, turn to your dog, mark and reward, release both dogs.

 

Repeat.

 

What I would be looking to build here is an understanding on the part of my dog that watching the other dog eat will earn him a reward. I'm actually going through this process right now with Dean to teach him that watching me sit next to Sammie on the sofa is rewarding to Dean (who is lying by my feet). He caught on very quickly.

 

Once your dog gets the idea, put a cue to it and then start doing the exercise with different dogs.

 

Of course, if you see signs of food guarding from Buddy, end and lower the criteria. I've found, though, that doing this exercise helps a dog with two things - first, knowing that the food is yours and it is only handed over to him when he is calm and cooperative. Second, it helps the dog make a positive association with being fed near a dog.

 

When I do this, or have others do it, I always make sure that I have two treats - one in each hand - at all times. I don't want the dogs to think they are somehow vying for the same treat.

 

I hope some of that helps.

[bsms99]

He sounds like a pretty well adjusted dog to me. The dogs who refuse to read HIS body language have the problem, IMHO. A dog shouldn't be expected to like everyone he meets. I don't, and I'm 50!

 

Dan the Dog, our pound mutt, hates meeting other dogs when on a leash. He just wants to be left alone. He does better if I have him sit, and maybe rub his ears...but he is always tense. Off leash, he avoids other dogs. In the house, he likes other dogs. On a leash...stay out of my face! I plan on taking him to some training classes, but I doubt he'll ever be calm meeting a strange dog while confined by a leash.

[Maralynn]

He sounds like a pretty well adjusted dog to me. The dogs who refuse to read HIS body language have the problem, IMHO. A dog shouldn't be expected to like everyone he meets.

 

While I agree with you in principle, life with dogs doesn't always work that way. Some of us are fortunate enough to have an area where we can exercise our dogs without having to think about dealing with strange dogs. But in many suburban areas dealing with strange dogs is an issue that can't be avoided.

[mbc1963]

Thanks for the input, folks.

 

I will buy Control Unleashed. I would happily buy the DVD, but the website says it is coming out in the summer of '08. I will stop doing the collar-holding thing, since it seems to be reinforcing tension rather than alleviating it. I'll also try to be really relaxed about the leash thing. And try to treat when we see dogs.

 

I agree that my dog is pretty well-adjusted. I'd just like him to be a bit more relaxed. The change he's made in his reaction to humans has been remarkable, and it's let me see that the right work can actually change the dog's internal reaction to stimuli. That's what I'd like to try to accomplish, if possible, with meeting dogs. Certainly, Buddy will live a long, healthy, happy life as he is - but I think he can come even further than he has. May be too much to expect, giving that you can't set up unexpected dog meetings and control the way they happen. We'll see!

 

Thanks again!

 

Mary

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Hey Mary, I chimed in late on this one...you should get CU (I have it, but not that far into it yet, becuase we are in classes atm). Have you read "Bringing Light to Shadow"? by Pamela Dennison (sp?) or her other book "How to right a dog gone wrong"? In both books she talks about desensitizing Shadow (her aggressive bc) to her hanging onto his collar very, very tightly. In hopes that if they were in a situation where a know trigger maybe or she had to handle him and she was nervous, he'd already be used to the tight grip on the collar. That might help.

Either way, they are both pretty good reads.

 

julie

[Barb Scott]

deleted

[NorthfieldNick]

I don't have anything to offer on the reactive dog side- my reactive mutt sounds like Buddy, only toned way down- and her problem was easy to fix by getting her to focus on me, not the other dog.

 

I also had the "leash=look for what's coming to get me" thing, though. That was an easy fix. I started stopping Lu & putting her leash on randomly. We'd walk for a bit on leash, then I'd let her go. It got to be so that the leash was No Big Deal anymore, because 9 times out of 10, the leash meant nothing.

 

I think I knew Lu was pretty well on her way the day a half-grown floppy yellow dog puppy ran up to her, bopped her on the head and took off without being chased down and eaten

[SincereArtisan]

It sounds like you hsve lots of good tips and some new info that will hopefully send you in a good direction...I just thought I'd chime in to agree that no matter how relaxed Buddy gets, there is always going to be encounters with rude dogs, pushy dogs, etc...perhaps you can try and watch for those that he does not do well with, take some notes, and see if they have anything in common? It may be that a certain profile of dog, or dogs displaying certain mannerisms, are whats triggering Buddy to react negatively.

[Northof49]

Thanks for the input, folks.

 

I will buy Control Unleashed. I would happily buy the DVD, but the website says it is coming out in the summer of '08. I will stop doing the collar-holding thing, since it seems to be reinforcing tension rather than alleviating it. I'll also try to be really relaxed about the leash thing. And try to treat when we see dogs.

 

I agree that my dog is pretty well-adjusted. I'd just like him to be a bit more relaxed. The change he's made in his reaction to humans has been remarkable, and it's let me see that the right work can actually change the dog's internal reaction to stimuli. That's what I'd like to try to accomplish, if possible, with meeting dogs. Certainly, Buddy will live a long, healthy, happy life as he is - but I think he can come even further than he has. May be too much to expect, giving that you can't set up unexpected dog meetings and control the way they happen. We'll see!

 

Mary the other thing that you can do is when a strange dog is approaching throw a bunch of treats towards that dog, and then leave with your dog. I know you want to get Buddy to be less reactive to some dogs, but with me since I don't know how that other strange dog is going to interact with my dogs, I prefer not to find out. I always have a pocket full of cheap treats in my pockets when out walking just in case I come across a loose dog. I don't want tht dog interacting with mine at all, so the best neutral way of dealing with it. If I try to scare the other dog away several negative things could happen, so I want to avoid that at all costs.

[nancy in AZ]

Mary the other thing that you can do is when a strange dog is approaching throw a bunch of treats towards that dog, and then leave with your dog.

 

Wouldn't that encourage the strange dog to continue following you?

[SincereArtisan]

Wouldn't that encourage the strange dog to continue following you?

 

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. Walk softly, carry a big stick--literally--if you want to deter strange, leashless and ownerless dogs from approaching. Best give them the impression you're not worth the hassle, rather than you have something yummy to eat.

[Northof49]

Wouldn't that encourage the strange dog to continue following you?

 

I haven't had them do that yet. I throw a big handful of little treats (or I use kibble) and since it scatters so much, they are busy trying to find each and every little piece.

[dinah_kay]

Mary,

 

I know exactly what you are going through. Your dog sounds so much like our dog, Dave. He has the same issue with leash greetings. I will tell you that I noticed the biggest difference when I started working the CU "Dog in Your Face" tactics that were posted earlier. Before that I was doing the opposite - you get a c/t for looking at me not the other dog. The other dog was too strong of a pull for him. C/T him for looking at other dogs was a light bulb moment for both of us. It has really helped him a lot. There are still certain dogs that I don't let him meet, because I know it will be too much for him. Example: my boss's golden will barrel up to him with an overly excited manner, and will sometimes start barking at him. That proves to be too much for Dave. He will react before he thinks. If the golden greeted in a calmer manner they would get a long just fine, but the posturing and pushy/excited manner is too much. So I still have to know my dog's limits, but for the most part he does really well with leash greetings now. We go to dock diving events, and a lot of the time he will have to stand in line with other dogs that are all barking and acting crazy since they are excited. He tolerates that very well! Generally there is one or two dogs I need to keep an eye on since I can tell from their eye contact and posture that their behavior will not mix well with Dave's greeting anxiety, but hey they aren't going to like everyone

 

So, my advice would be to ready CU and really put to work the C/T for looking at other dogs. You have to be very quick and very generous with your c/t, and if you are you will be amazed at what a difference it makes!!

[Northof49]

So, my advice would be to ready CU and really put to work the C/T for looking at other dogs. You have to be very quick and very generous with your c/t, and if you are you will be amazed at what a difference it makes!!

 

I'll second that!

[mbc1963]

Cool! I will definitely try that C/T for looking at other dogs. I know it worked with a young black lab who came to my walking area; owner was a beginning dog trainer, so she would just walk ahead of me and drop treats when Buddy was around. Buddy NEVER got to reactivity with that dog; he was so excited to have a human treat dispenser that he went straight to "excited to see the black floppy dog." Kind of cool. That's the kind of stuff that makes me know there's a possibility of normalizing this.

 

BTW, I have used the "scatter kibble" trick, and it has worked for me. Especially with nosy dogs, like labs, who seem to want to find EVERY piece of food available in the ecosystem.

 

I'm going to buy some delicious tasting junk food treats just for the dog meeting issue. Kibble won't cut the mustard, I don't think.

 

Sincere, sincere thanks to those who took the time to think about this and give me their own hints. That's why I love this community.

 

Mary

[Northof49]

I'm going to buy some delicious tasting junk food treats just for the dog meeting issue. Kibble won't cut the mustard, I don't think.

 

Mary

 

Fruit Loops and Cheerios work great

[sweet_ceana]

Just another thing to throw out there... are there any dogs that Buddy likes? The reason I ask is that Ceana, my reactive and a little nuts girl, is better meeting other dogs with Poke there. Poke always greets them first and she stays back and once he is comfortable she is all of a sudden relieved. She is still timid and does not engage in play, but she sniffs and then ignores them. Maybe Buddy has a really brave friend to help him on encounters?

 

Since we got Poke a year ago Ceana has actually started to greet new fosters herself. It is a quick sniff, and she will only do it at home where she feels safe, but we are starting to see her step out of her shell and greet nicely on her own.

 

ETA: We can actually go to the dog park now!!!!

[mbc1963]

Just another thing to throw out there... are there any dogs that Buddy likes? ...

Since we got Poke a year ago Ceana has actually started to greet new fosters herself. It is a quick sniff, and she will only do it at home where she feels safe, but we are starting to see her step out of her shell and greet nicely on her own.

 

ETA: We can actually go to the dog park now!!!!

 

Yes, there are dogs that Buddy likes, and I do think he's much calmer with new dogs if his friends accept the other dogs into the fold first. I'll try to work that out more often. Unfortunately, getting a planned walk together is tricky, with everyone working. We used to have an abandoned college campus that was de facto do walking area, but now the campus is reinhabited (good for the town, bad for the dog owners), and instead of seeing lots of his friends, we mostly see random unknown dogs. I do think the constantly changing dogs are part of the problem - he never gets to know any of them, so he can't establish that comfort level.

 

Oddly, there are certain strange dogs that Buddy loves on sight. If he's leashed, I can tell from his posture: his tail is curved high but not stiff - it wags very quickly back and forth, and Buddy looks right at the other dog and actively pulls to get to the dog. At the second meeting, Buddy whines in a pathetic voice, as if he's reuniting with a friend he hasn't seen since the war.

 

What the standards are on these good meetings I have NO IDEA. Jack Russells seem popular, as do huskie types. But standard poodles seem to be in the fold, too, and of course all herding dogs. GSD occasionally. Maybe it's more of a smell/body language thing. Wish I could know what Buddy's looking for in a friend.

 

I'll try to set up more walks with friends over the weekends, so we can test the dog-protector theory. And I'll stock up on Cheerios.

 

Mary

[pammyd]

How about you take over the greeting when you meet a strange dog??

You get your dog to sit and stay and then you step out infront and see what the dog is like

If your guy seems unhappy about the other dog then leave (I guess you can even use the treat chucking to distract the other dog) if your dog is calm then reward and let him say hello

Then he learns to trust you and that his flight option is not taken away being on the lead