Training May update - 23 months

[Denise Wall]

On Vimeo for best quality:

 

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YouTube - watch "high quality" option if possible:

 

YouTube

[Soda-pop]

Wonderful! I can't express my gratitude to you for posting these with such thorough and deep explanations that even me (the rankest of rankity rank novices) can understand.

 

Such well produced videos, I always enjoy them.

 

Paige

[Bo Peep]

Duh- how do I subscribe to U-Tube?

[Chesney's Girl]

As usual, I love the video. I think you should put them all together and make a DVD. The narrations are great.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

These sets of training progress are great. You have a good narrative voice and explain it well.

 

What video editing s/w do you use?

 

Keep these coming!!!

 

Diane

[juliepoudrier]

Thanks Denise. I am really enjoying watching May's progress and the training steps you're taking (and your reasoning behind them). I'm looking forward to the next installment!

 

J.

[Denise Wall]

Thanks for the nice comments guys

 

Diane, I use Mac's Final Cut Pro as editing software.

[KathyF]

Another excellent video. I have enjoyed each and every one of your videos on May's progress. There is something to be learned in each one. Or at least an a-ha moment for me.

 

Kathy

[Vicki G.]

As a newbie I absolutely loved the video (especially when I listened at home with sound- can't do that at work) It was very easy to follow and to understand what you wanted May to do and what you would have changed. Thanks!

Vicki

[SoloRiver]

Thanks for posting this, Denise.

 

I still want to steal May.

[PSmitty]

Wonderful! Next rainy day, I'm going to sit at the desk and watch the whole series back to back.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

This is growing into quite a resource. As usual, a lovely job both in an artistic sense and for the excellent voice-overs with plenty of good plain, easy to understand pointers.

 

Patrick really likes the parts where you explain something while stepping through it in slow-mo. It gives us a common frame of discussion since we're looking at and hearing the same thing ("out there" we both use pronouns and point a lot, which leads to frustrating discussions).

[Mark Billadeau]

Denise,

 

I really like these videos; you do a wonderful job narrating what is happening and what your training program is.

 

Mark

[Denise Wall]

Thanks to all. I'm happy if they can be helpful to someone.

 

Melanie, sorry, you can't have her. I've spent too much time developing this new breed - the miniature border collie

[Pippin's person]

This, like the others, was great to see. Your calm handling and voice make it easy to get what's going on.

 

Here's a question--what made you decide to call May back when she wanted to cross? Or, put a different way, what would have led you to decide to walk up and push her out OR redirect her? Is that something you do on instinct or do you have that plan in mind in case the cross happens?

[Denise Wall]

This, like the others, was great to see. Your calm handling and voice make it easy to get what's going on.

 

Here's a question--what made you decide to call May back when she wanted to cross? Or, put a different way, what would have led you to decide to walk up and push her out OR redirect her? Is that something you do on instinct or do you have that plan in mind in case the cross happens?

 

Thanks, that's a good question. I would say I went on feel for that entire situation and dog but the thing that would have most influenced that decision is the fact that I was asking her to do something hard to start with - run out farther than she'd ever run out before. She'd already run out well on the right and I'd yelled at her a bit at the top of the fetch. I had to yell really, otherwise she couldn't have heard me that far away and she'd taken that well. May will sometimes get harder in response to strong correction or pressure. Just as with the decision to not harp on the driving mistakes after the first outrun, I was picking my battles, with a mental limit on how much pressure I was going to put on her overall that day and cutting her some slack.

 

Also, if you go back and look and compare that start off to the times she went out correctly, she didn't look very committed to going out on the left that time and I missed that while setting her up. She rarely crosses over anymore and I just wasn't paying close enough attention to that possibility when I sent her. I knew it though as soon as I sent her so it was something *I* could've avoided. Yes, she needs to run out on the side I send her regardless, but an once of prevention is worth a pound of cure, especially in a young dog like that.

 

Finally, occasionally, she'll remember me and change her mind and decide to blow off nicely the right way on her own when she starts out like that. I couldn't tell if that might be on her mind right before I stopped her, so I was giving her benefit of the doubt. IMO one of the very hardest things to do fairly when training a dog is to give them credit or not correct them when they've changed their mind to do the right thing, even though at that second they still *look* like they're doing the wrong thing. If they're trying to or thinking about doing the right thing, and you correct them, in their mind you're correcting them for that correct thought. As I said, I find this very hard and to do it right even part of the time takes a real good feel for that dog and situation.

 

So, maybe I was wrong to just call her back all friendly-like. But that was just what felt right to me at the time.

[Amelia]

"IMO one of the very hardest things to do fairly when training a dog is to give them credit or not correct them when they've changed their mind to do the right thing"

 

this is so true and many times i've corrected a dog just before realizing that they were correcting themselves. with a youngster, regarding training an outrun, i almost always call them back and correct them at hand. i was taught to correct the outrun at my feet and that has always worked well for me. they have to start right to finish right and even if it's just a gut feeling that they've started wrong, i usually act on it and call them back. it's never taken more than a time or 2 for the dogs to figure out what i was asking for. that's not to say that i didn't have to do it more than a couple times in a dog's training, but with any particular outrun, if that makes sense.

 

stopping a dog to correct them halfway out, let's say, doesn't teach them to start correctly. it might help them learn to finish correctly, but you're going to always have to correct them halfway if you don't teach them to start correctly. and, when in doubt i call them back, give them a growl and send them again because you're better off affirming the lesson than missing it, imo.

 

great videos Denise and great narration. it's that soft southern accent...

 

cheers all,

[Laurae]

Great video, Denise, and an interesting discussion. I've had outrun problems with Taz forever, but his main problem is that he slices his flanks at the top. Early on, I was told never to call him back to my feet if he wasn't working correctly, but to either lie him down or try to redirect him on the fly. Neither approach has been effective over the long term for me, largely due to my own inconsistency and poor timing, but I wonder if calling him back to me might have made things clearer to him...

[Smokjbc]

Great video, Denise, and an interesting discussion. I've had outrun problems with Taz forever, but his main problem is that he slices his flanks at the top. Early on, I was told never to call him back to my feet if he wasn't working correctly, but to either lie him down or try to redirect him on the fly. Neither approach has been effective over the long term for me, largely due to my own inconsistency and poor timing, but I wonder if calling him back to me might have made things clearer to him...

 

 

One of my older dogs (6 y.) has been having some outrun trouble, especially at trials. I took some advice to call her back instead of re-directing, it seems to have helped in new places as it makes her responsible for her outrun. I will probably always have issues with it, I think it's a confidence/nervousness problem as she is a natural outrunner in general, but too much input on her outruns was making her screwy (and me really, really P'O'd, which I'm sure helps tons )

[Denise Wall]

Thanks again.

 

Good points, Amelia.

 

I should explain further by saying what I choose to do in this situation also depends on the dog in general. For example, if a dog is hesitating on its outrun, I would be less likely to call it back than to the go out there and help it go the right way no matter what the circumstances.

 

With May, I've left her where she is and gone out to help her as prerequisite training to giving a redirect from the post. I want to have these tools in case I'm in a situation where I can't call her back and need to redirect her from where she is. I've worked on these things with her, and she'll take a redirect correctly most of the time. I can actually send her back for another group of sheep if they're close enough. On the day of the video I decided to simply call her back and start over for the reasons I stated in my last post.

[Amelia]

"if a dog is hesitating on its outrun, I would be less likely to call it back"

 

Me too, Denise. If the dog starts correctly, but hesitates at some point on the outrun, or stops short, then I wouldn't call it back, but would encourage it to continue. It's when the dog isn't starting correctly that I call it back. If the dog stops short, though, i give it a correction before asking it to finish. if you don't give a correction for stopping short, the dog won't know that it's done anything wrong and may always stop short waiting for the inevitable re direct whistle before continuing on. it has to know that stopping short is a bad thing before it gets a re direct to continue.

 

if my dog is starting correctly, but pulling in at some point or slicing at the top, i would back up and reinforce a correct flank at hand until it was perfect, then begin again to stretch it out as long as it remained that way.

[Liz P]

Great video. Thank you once again for an excellent resource! Have you run her in any trials recently?

 

So, where is the video of Moss?

 

Now I see what you mean about May. Since she has matured and filled out more she doesn't look like Frankie, she is a more solid dog.

[Denise Wall]

Great video. Thank you once again for an excellent resource! Have you run her in any trials recently?

 

So, where is the video of Moss?

 

Now I see what you mean about May. Since she has matured and filled out more she doesn't look like Frankie, she is a more solid dog.

 

Thanks, Liz. As I am more or less out of competitive Open dogs for the moment, I pretty much took a pass on trialling this fall. I did go to a trial in the middle of Oct and got May qualified for the Nursery finals, but left without running the second day of Open. Then, since I forgot to pull my entries in time for a trial a couple of hours away this weekend, I decided to go for one day yesterday and run Mick and Kate for the fun of it. Kate came up lame Fri night so I threw May in the truck and took her instead with the meager goal of giving her a chance at a nice long outrun, which depending on who you asked, was between 400-500 yards. She ran out nicely needing no re-directs -- looking in and flanking off when she saw there were no sheep yet, and had a very nice gather. She far exceeded my expectations. It was one of those drives where you turn them around a hay bale 100-150 yards from the post to start the drive which was really long and way the he!! out there. That drive was a bit over her head so I retired on the crossdrive. So she has now kinda run in Open. I think it was a good experience for her. I didn't go back today. I don't know when I'll go to another trial.

 

 

Moss had an injury that kept me from working him until just recently. I expect I'll put up something of him at some point. But Robin did most of his training so it won't be the same sort of thing as what I've done with May.

 

I'll have to show you a shot of May beside another dog. I wouldn't consider her filled out. She's even smaller and less wide than Kate, who's a wee bitch herself. May only weighs 26 lbs.

[Liz P]

Moss had an injury that kept me from working him until just recently. I expect I'll put up something of him at some point. But Robin did most of his training so it won't be the same sort of thing as what I've done with May.

 

I'll have to show you a shot of May beside another dog. I wouldn't consider her filled out. She's even smaller and less wide than Kate, who's a wee bitch herself. May only weighs 26 lbs.

 

Sounds like May did a great job for a dog of her age.

 

I am looking forward to the video of Moss! I love his head/face. He looks very wise. What sort of injury did he have?

 

I meant filled out as compared to a year ago. She is looking much more mature and much less like a puppy than she did last winter. Frankie has filled out but is still very fine boned and doesn't have much coat. May is really only 26 lbs? Wow. Frankie is 34 and Sage is 36, so a bit shrimpy for males, but Sage looks huge with his broad head and thick fur. I will have to check and see how much the two females from my litter weigh now.

[Denise Wall]

I am looking forward to the video of Moss! I love his head/face. He looks very wise. What sort of injury did he have?

 

He was diagnosed with a gluteal strain. I'm not sure what it really was/is but probably some sort of soft tissue injury. Those take forever to heal. He's only getting very light work right now but we're slowly getting together. I hope I can trial him by spring. It's been 15 years since I've owned a dog I didn't train myself so it's a little different for me.