Bula's Lady Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Awhile back I was talking about Bula taking off to the neighbors... Well, I did find out that they play with her. Ball, frisbee, all that good stuff. They feed off of her bc cuteness and that she brings them anything to play with. This is an older couple, in there 70's at least.....I feel bad having a "talk" with them. side note - they say my dog isn't the first to do this. They used to have a rough collie come to there house from about 5miles away. Would always leave its house and go to theres. Then they told me about living in another town and having a lab come to there house from across town. I guess they are used to having dogs adopt them and owners having to come pick them up. This has been going on for awhile now, I admit that, and I am trying to fix it now. The other day she left and I went and picked her up, brought her back home, and as soon as I opened the car door she was back over the river and to the peoples house again. I had to go physically carry her to the car. So for the past 3 days I have been taking her out on a leash. I refuse to let her run out because she will take right off. The problem is she won't go to the bathroom on the leash. Usually I could take her right out and say, "go pee pees" and she would go. Now she just sits on my feet even if I have the 16ft of leash available for her. I take her for walks around to property and she just scuttles under my feet. I turn to go back to the house, then she tries to take off...but she is on the leash. right now she is a crate dog because I can't have her out in the house if she hasn't gone to the bathroom she will go upstairs on the floor. I even took her out with a ball this morning before work to get her to play and relax, nope, still nothing. We are working on an electric fence so that she can be off leash but I still feel like this is a band aid to the situation. I have a trainer calling me at the end of the week, she has lost her voice right now so waiting on that.... I keep joking I am going to give her away to a friend - but that joke keeps turning more serious. I love my dog but I feel like she doesn't love me, or wants to be with us. I know you aren't supposed to give dogs emotions .... but.... Did anyone ever have a dog that just didn't fit with them? I don't want to give up on her yet but if she isn't happy.... * bonus information* I live on a farm, she runs and plays with me and the other dogs a lot. We go on walks. I play ball and frisbee with her. In the house I make up inside games, find the ball, put the ball in a specific place, lie down. She is very happy while engaged... she is now 3yrs old my schedule has changed and i am at work more for the time being so frustrated.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afrancis Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Mainly wanted to bump this back up to the top since it involves a specific problem situation rather than theory I think a visit and talk to this couple is really in order. Who knows exactly what is taking place over there when Bula goes over to play that makes it so much more enticing than you -- probably just the fact that she can have non-stop play. Did you ever consider that if they owned her, she might run over to your place when they issued a 'time-out' with her? But since they're retired and older and clearly miss having their own dog, yours is fun and happy and a real ego booster since she comes all the way over to see them. I bet they're also giving her really yummy treats....extra enticement. If you can explain to them that she cannot be trusted off-leash since she runs to their place and that her safety is in jeopardy, and get them to ignore her COMPLETELY the next time she comes over? Do you think this would work? OR Could you reach a compromise? Maybe bring her over every few days for play-time with them so she still gets to see them but on your schedule rather than hers. Leaving anything/anyone that is way more fun than you is a real challenge -- I know it. Skye would (and still does if I'm not right on target with my "Leave it") run over to anyone with a ball and give me the brush off. I tried not to take this personally -- she just loves balls! Could you develop a new routine with Bula? Make a new game that is more fun than anything else? Maybe do some agility-type play outdoors? Good luck and let us know how it goes, Ailsa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 This has been going on for awhile now, I admit that, and I am trying to fix it now. The other day she left and I went and picked her up, brought her back home, and as soon as I opened the car door she was back over the river and to the peoples house again. I had to go physically carry her to the car. Does she not have a solid recall when you are in sight? I would suggest some serious training on that. Also, can you set her up to fail? I hate that type of set up but in this case it may be needed. What if you were on the other side of the creek when she is crossing it and corrected her for it? Instead of picking her up and carrying her to the car, take her collar and "walk" all the way home, don't let up on the collar and don't speak to her. When you get home, just a simple pat on the head and no negative emotions. As for bolting when you opened the car door - teach her to wait until you say it's all right for her to exit and then have her do a "with me" and she must stay within a area you define (w/i 10 feet of you or closer). Just some suggestions but the recall is what I see lacking in the big picture. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bula's Lady Posted October 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 i now have 2 doggy day cares next door. I want to set up a routine with her but I want her to know that she lives we me and that she needs to obey me. I have no qualms with bringing her over to play, or letting them keep her for the day, if again, its on my terms and I bring her there. Luckily there is no road in between the two houses, its just woods. I thought Bula had really good recall up until now. She will just keep going now. I have gone through the woods after her, put her on a leash, and walked her back. I have done it both ways. Acted like nothing happened, no reaction, and puting her in "time out" So I am trying to go back to basics and keep her on leash, work on recall, everything, but she won't do anything while on the leash. She just sits there. She won't play with the ball, she won't go to the bathroom, she won't move away from me. When she is on the leash she tucks her tail and shakes. I have owned this dog since she was 7 wks and she has never been hit or abused, so I don't understand why she acts like it. Mainly wanted to bump this back up to the top since it involves a specific problem situation rather than theory I think a visit and talk to this couple is really in order. Who knows exactly what is taking place over there when Bula goes over to play that makes it so much more enticing than you -- probably just the fact that she can have non-stop play. Did you ever consider that if they owned her, she might run over to your place when they issued a 'time-out' with her? But since they're retired and older and clearly miss having their own dog, yours is fun and happy and a real ego booster since she comes all the way over to see them. I bet they're also giving her really yummy treats....extra enticement. If you can explain to them that she cannot be trusted off-leash since she runs to their place and that her safety is in jeopardy, and get them to ignore her COMPLETELY the next time she comes over? Do you think this would work? OR Could you reach a compromise? Maybe bring her over every few days for play-time with them so she still gets to see them but on your schedule rather than hers. Leaving anything/anyone that is way more fun than you is a real challenge -- I know it. Skye would (and still does if I'm not right on target with my "Leave it") run over to anyone with a ball and give me the brush off. I tried not to take this personally -- she just loves balls! Could you develop a new routine with Bula? Make a new game that is more fun than anything else? Maybe do some agility-type play outdoors? Good luck and let us know how it goes, Ailsa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 I have owned this dog since she was 7 wks and she has never been hit or abused, so I don't understand why she acts like it. Because you are defining the rules and she'd rather not have them. So, when she acts like this you take the lead off and off she goes - this behavior is working for her. Leave her on lead and get over it....she's not screaming bloody murder, sooner or later she will learn to play by the rules. Until then, the lead stays on.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bula's Lady Posted October 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Because you are defining the rules and she'd rather not have them. So, when she acts like this you take the lead off and off she goes - this behavior is working for her. Leave her on lead and get over it....she's not screaming bloody murder, sooner or later she will learn to play by the rules. Until then, the lead stays on.... i know what she does is my fault, trying to fix herself and myself. hopefully she will get over it soon! btw, I don't mind harsh comments, i'm not going to crumble and cry and defend what I do. I want to learn and to fix this issue, be it with her, me, or both of us. So if you have negative feedback I can take that as well! Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Don't forget, too, that dogs are very quick to pick up on our emotions. So if you have her on leash and you're feeling frustrated, annoyed, aggravated, whatever, she might be picking up on that and then responding in the manner you're observing. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 I'm not meaning to be harsh but in most situations this is a "life or death" behavior. Because you said there are no roads and she goes through the creek you are lucky. It's still a recall problem, basics. Fixing her and you starts with you being the leader. Giving in to her wen she acts like a beaten dog on lead is giving the control to her. Just tie a 20 foot line to you and go about your business (with her attached to the other end!). Work on the recall and don't "test" her to soon and set her up to fail. Leave her on it till you "know" she has a solid recall, then correct leaving home, if you need to, when it occurs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bula's Lady Posted October 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 argh, my husband just called and bula took off on him. he went to go tie her up outside and she got away and took off. he went to pick her up but i think she probably hid on the neighbors porch. I'll be off to get her at 7pm when I get out. I am going to talk with the people on monday to see if they can "ignore" her when she comes over, or just tie her to a tree at there place. I can't always go get her right away when she takes off cause I need to finish taking care of the horses and other dogs. so frustrating....and hubby gets mad because he doesn't want her to be locked in a crate all the time.... blah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 I refer to neighbors like this as an "attractive nuisance". You can ask them to change, but you'll probably be disappointed, so better to change what you can on your end. I am of the opinion that the first thing you need to implement in a situation like this is "management". Only when the management is effective enough to eliminate the problem behavior can you really start working on "training", i.e.. teaching the dog that it is their responsibility to see that the problem behavior does not occur. Otherwise, each time she sneaks off, any training you've done prior to that point is pretty much undone. Therefore, I recommend a fenced yard. It may be a hassle to fence your yard, but you won't believe how much happier everyone in your family will be once you do. Once you become the ONLY people Bula can interact with, I bet she'll start finding you more interesting. It's the weekend. Go buy some t-posts and wire mesh and get started. Personally, I don't think most of us are good enough trainers to train our way out of a problem like this without getting it under control first with management. Good luck (but don't rely on luck - build the fence). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flrpwr52 Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 We had a very similar problem with our neighbor. He would call the dogs to his house and give them treats, play ball etc. There were times he even took them in his house. I had a talk with him and he was OK for a while but then it started again. First find out if your neighbors are giving Bula treats. If they are tell them to stop. Our only recourse was to fence in the entire area so the dogs could not get to his house. Problem solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bula's Lady Posted October 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 So last night when picking up Bula she comes running down the neighbors driveway tail wagging. I call out to her, tail tucks and she runs for there door. I walked her to the car. Journey - This morning when I took her out I made myself stay neutral in emotion and walked her around. She peed and her tail started to come untucked. Hopefully its an improvement. Fence - Getting a fence indeed! My brother gave me an electric fence, wireless, which we are getting new collars for. I also want to set up the back yard area with a privacy fence. Thanks for the suggestions and tips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 I don't have any ideas but I can imagine how you feel when she sees you and her tail tucks. Don't let that get you down. She loves you, she is just doing her thing. When my grandson was young(er) my daughter complained that he liked everyonne more than her, I said, give it time he will come to love you so much it will drive you crazy. Well you know the outcome, he is now tied to her leg anytime anyone comes to pick him up. Daughter is now able to laugh at how she felt back then. the neighbors are like a giant treat despencing box with no rules. You are the voice of reason and rules, a MOM. In the end that is really what she needs and wants. Hang in there, build your fences and you'll win! I'd be tempted to get the neighbors a dog of their own, I know that's not right but what the heck are they thinking??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 When we first moved here, we had no fence. I like to let my dogs out to potty without having to go with them, but with a road out front where horse and buggies tend to come by, and cows pastured across the road and behind us, I had to go with them and it got old quick. We got some metal posts, a post driver thing, and some green wire mesh fence and in one afternoon we built a small fenced area. Until we got the yard fenced entirely - which took quite some time because we did it ourselves with metal posts and green wire fence - they were only in the penned area unless I was out with them. It worked out very well. If I were working on a problem like you describe, I would make an area like that and the dog would only be allowed off leash in that area. I would take the dog out of the area on leash, but all off-leash play and training would take place in the small fenced area. I also recommend a physical fence, if you can get one. It's not just nice for my own dogs, but when have a guest dog, I don't have to worry about whether or not the dog tends to wander. Also, it keeps other people's dogs out of our yard, unless they are invited and come in through the gate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachdogz Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 I'm in agreement with all of the above. Fence, fence, fence. We have a very inexpensive fence on our 2 acres...just green wire mesh with green metal stakes (except the front, which is post and rail with green mesh stapled to it.) It serves as a physical boundary, so that it kept over a dozen GSDs in my yard for years. I'm sure they could have jumped it or ran right through it if they wanted. Along comes my mix, who was a stray. First part of his life he was used to running wild. Then he was adopted by two different familys, both who let him run through their neighborhoods. So he was used to running. I had to watch him like a hawk with our fence. He would find ways to get under it, or get out of it. He was just so conditioned to running, that is what he wanted to do. Had nothing to do with his liking or disliking us. Same with your dog. She is just so conditioned to the neighbors (they give her tons of attention and food) that she wants to go there...and now it's like a bad habit for her. I can only imagine how FRUSTRATED you are!! Once you get a barrier of some sort, give it time. My dog had years of conditioning for him to want to run...and it took a good year before I could truly trust him in a fenced yard. But...it happened. He stays so well now, that even if you leave the gate open, he has no desire to go out it. I'm sure that the tail tucked when you come to retrieve her is associated with the "correction" of taking her home. Even if you never yelled at her, she might associate your taking her home with being corrected. I'm sure you are not happy, having to come and retriever her...and I'm sure she senses that. And if you did scold her when you picked her up...well, then she does see it as discipline. Exactly how far is the neighbor's house? Sight distance? Over two miles? I am thinking of a program that might benefit you...but I'd need to know exactly how far they are and what the terrain is in between. Can she hear you call her from their house? Can she see your house from theirs? Good luck. Hang in there. It'll get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 One thing to be aware of is that if the attraction to the neighbors is really strong, Bula may well be willing to cross the electric fence to get there, and then of course not want to cross back. This is why an actual physical fence is a better bet. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachdogz Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 One thing to be aware of is that if the attraction to the neighbors is really strong, Bula may well be willing to cross the electric fence to get there, and then of course not want to cross back. This is why an actual physical fence is a better bet. J. That's a very good point and I totally agree with that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bula's Lady Posted October 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 the house she goes to is probably 1/4mile through the woods, right behind our house is a small river - which i don't like her crossing after heavy rain or if there is snow! - and then either up a hill or through some marsh land. I have walked it many times going to get her and bringing her back. I can't see the house from where I am and i'm not sure if she can hear me from there or not - don't know how far they can hear! The neighbors do have have a dog. They lost one to old age in june and there springer hadn't been doing to well. They said that with Bula around he is happier and eating. So she does him good. I think this is making her slip in other areas - her recall was excellent, now its not. she will just look at me, stick out her tongue, and keep going. I would rather have a physical fence for the immediate area but we live on the farm and i would like to build her back up so that she can run on the property. any training tips help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soloagility Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 You have to stop allowing her to self-reinforce by going to the neighbour's, and you have to stop letting her chose whether or not she wants to be on a leash. Of course her recall is falling apart, she has repeatedly been reinforced for ignoring it. Have her on a long line every time she's outside. Try having her wear the long line constantly. Have her wear it inside as well so she gets used to it, then maybe being on it outside will stop being such a big deal. Don't forget to reward her for normal behaviour while on the long line. When she starts acting normally while on the line, retrain your recall. Practice inside and outside..... a lot. I know how it is to live in the bush and have dogs run free, as my parents used to live like that. Then they got a dog that would run to other people's property, eat others' dog food and steal their toys. They couldn't allow it to continue, so the dog was kept in a pen when it was outside. It might not be what you're used to, but if you don't want your dog to run wild and don't want to get a fence, you might have to consider changing your expectations. She might be able to run free again with your other dogs eventually, but the retraining will take time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 I think this is making her slip in other areas - her recall was excellent, now its not. she will just look at me, stick out her tongue, and keep going. I would rather have a physical fence for the immediate area but we live on the farm and i would like to build her back up so that she can run on the property. any training tips help. I think fencing in (real fence, not electronic) part of your property, if financially feasible, would be extremely helpful. I agree with Alaska that management is going to be an important part of fixing this problem along with training and relationship building. It does sound like things have broken down between you and Bula. Without knowing either of you, I can't guess why that would be. I don't know if she is manipulating by acting frightened and abused, though that was my first thought. One thing Quinn's obedience instructor said to me was "Don't let him NOT have fun. Make him have fun. He wants to laugh." She said this in reference to Quinn's pouting or what she named "being a donkey" when he decided what we were doing was boring or not enjoyable enough. He didn't act fearful, just listless. But a happy voice, running a few steps, a playful poke from me and he went from Eeyore to shining eyes and a big smile. Maybe a modified approach with Bula -- happy voice, ignoring the fearful behaviors, staying lively would help in situations like being outside on a leash. On the other hand, when dealing with returning her after a failed recall, I would stay non-emotional and let the dog pout if that's as their choice. One thing I will do is then do a few recalls where the right response earns praise, attention, treats or play. Fence or no fence (and if you have a fence, you must always go out with her), you do want to do everything you can to keep her from continuing to self-reward by visiting the neighbors. If that means leashing when outside and crating if she refuses to potty, so be it. You could also try tethering her to you instead of crating. This would keep her from sneaking off to pottying inside and might promote bonding. Just try very hard to stay in the right frame of mind and not let the frustration of this situation get to you. I would also go back to basics with obedience training, with special emphasis on the recall. Make dinner time all about doing recalls --- really reinforce the command. I hesitate to recommend Ruff Love by Susan Garrett because it really needs to be done correctly or IMHO it can be abusive -- and it involves lots of crating at first so your husband won't like it. It is NILIF in a step by step program that involves a ton of commitment and discipline by the owner while the dog is being trained (eventually, the dog is supposed to have all the normal privileges of house living after earning those privileges). In a case like you describe, I think it may be something to consider because the goal is to build the relationship and make you the center of the dog's universe. It isn't how I choose to do the basic training with my dogs for a variety of reasons, but in your situation, I probably would try it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osioda Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 HI, First thing I am not for electric fence, if you want to break her of the problem you first have to out think her, and catch her in the act, and you never yell at her going on on the way, but first off if you know she is going to do it, you need to be at the neighbors when she arrives, and then run at her yelling an scolding her, and make her run back home, never scold her as she is running there, if you will plan and do this a couple of times she will stop it so set up a plan with someone and have it worked out. And believe me she will learn with in a couple of times, I would recommend the only other thing is for the people she is going to is if they see her coming to run at her and throw some small pebbles and hit her with them they won't hurt her physcially but it will mentally. and it ususally only takes one time like this. Out think her, and already be there before she gets there, and be kind to your neighbors there is obviously doing something right that she keeps going over. and one said well take her over once in a while to play, don't do that, you are just causing more problems, if anything have them come to your house. steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afrancis Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 ... you need to be at the neighbors when she arrives, and then run at her yelling an scolding her, and make her run back home, never scold her as she is running there, if you will plan and do this a couple of times she will stop it so set up a plan with someone and have it worked out. And believe me she will learn with in a couple of times, I would recommend the only other thing is for the people she is going to is if they see her coming to run at her and throw some small pebbles and hit her with them they won't hurt her physcially but it will mentally. and it ususally only takes one time like this.steve No offence Steve but I think if she follows your advice she'll have even more of an anxious and unwilling dog on her hands. "Run at her yelling and scolding" and "throw some small pebbles and hit her" -- this is, in my opinion, balderdash, and will break any bond of trust that remains. She'll probably never see that dog again should it get loose once more. And to be honest, if I were to witness that strategy, I'd be tempted to take the dog away myself. Ailsa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 No offence Steve but I think if she follows your advice she'll have even more of an anxious and unwilling dog on her hands. I strongly agree. There are enough problems in this relationship without frightening or even freaking out the dog. While I will correct my dogs for ignoring a recall (though not by trying to scare the dog straight), it is even more important to me that the dog wants to return to my side, that I am a source of good things and that he trusts me to keep him safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haystack Hollow Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Have you considered just letting her go over there? My son's place is through the woods from us, there's even a creek between. It sounds a lot like your set-up. Our dog treats that as part of her territory, goes over there to spend time with my DIL during the day. There's no road nearby, and no risk with going back and forth that I can see. Your neighbors sound nice, and Bula probably brings some joy into their life. Maybe it isn't really a problem? You do need to have her to come when you call her, but that is something you could work on seperate from this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAC2 Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Have you considered just letting her go over there? My son's place is through the woods from us, there's even a creek between. It sounds a lot like your set-up. Our dog treats that as part of her territory, goes over there to spend time with my DIL during the day. There's no road nearby, and no risk with going back and forth that I can see. Your neighbors sound nice, and Bula probably brings some joy into their life. Maybe it isn't really a problem? You do need to have her to come when you call her, but that is something you could work on seperate from this. If the dog is choosing to ignore a recall and taking off not when owner isn't watching, but while she is and screaming a recall, that is a direct "defiance." Allowing the dog when and when not to obey a command isn't a good option in my opinion as the next thing she could decide to do is chase cars or some other dangerous activity. One part of this discussion I found interesting from the original poster: "The neighbors do have have a dog. They lost one to old age in june and there springer hadn't been doing to well. They said that with Bula around he is happier and eating. So she does him good." Has this problem been going on since June? Perhaps Bula senses the need of this dog? Dogs, and even cats, are pretty amazing at sensing problems, illness and impending death in other creatures. For example, seizure alert dogs who sense when their owners are about to have an attack, or those that can detect and alert to low insulin. If you had a great relationship with this dog and then a sudden problem, this may be something to look at perhaps? Not sure how to solve it though. Also, with respect to fencing, I too disagree with electric wireless fences. They often create more problems then they solve. If you can't do regular fencing right now, then a 10x10x6 kennel should help until she does her business before returning to the house. If you put a concrete base in (with some soft spots and/or dog house to lay in) they she can't dig her way out either, plus it's easier to clean. (On the down side, our GSD actually tore through the chain link once.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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