Good Breeders?

[Colton's_Mom]

Now,

I understand about rescuing don't get me wrong but all of my current dogs/family dogs are rescues. I would potentially be alright breeding the puppy I get but only if her (prefferably a her) breeder was to advise it I definantly don't want to ever come across as a BYB and want to do everything responsibly. I want to get a puppy from a breeder so I can meet her parents, have no doubts about her history, and have a fair judge of her temperment.

 

 

I would love to get into herding as well as dog sports just for kicks and giggles. My dog goes for a 1 hour run daily as well as going to the dog park/swimming in the lake. I feel like I can handle a Border Collie but am going to foster/play with/walk more dogs of this wounderful breed to make sure I am making the correct choice. I would also like to talk to breeders/meet breeders dogs. I am looking for a working line Collie.

 

I am hoping you guys will stear me in the right direction. I would need a breeder around Northern Kentucky (Louisville area) or Southern Indiana.

 

Thanks,

Colton's Mom

[jdarling]

Hi Colton's mom,

 

Welcome to the boards. You're in the right place to ask questions.

 

For those responding, here a blurb from another post of hers.

 

I am in the 9th grade

 

Let's start slowly, k?

 

Jodi

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I'm afraid what you want is a shopping list, and what I'm about to tell you is a game plan. A long term game plan. Because if you are a first time Border Collie owner (especially looking for a puppy with some expectations about what you'll be doing), please believe me when I tell you that it's not something that would be smart to rush into.

 

What you want to do is keep an eye out for sheepdog trials in your area. The good news is that you won't be waiting long. This is a good time of year for your area, if I'm not mistaken.

 

Also, get involved in rescue. Not because necessarily you want a rescue, but because rescue sees the good, bad, and ugly, and you'll get a crash course on "BC culture" and the pitfalls and dangers that lay in wait for you out there.

[Carson Crazies]

Hi Colton's Mom, and welcome to the boards. First I'd like to encourage you to read this thread: Read This First!. I'd like to mention for any of the next posters that Colton's Mom is in the ninth grade, and is looking for the family's first border collie - possibly. Am I correct?

 

Anyway, as you'll read in the above link this board supports breeding for proven stock working ability only. You mention that you're looking for a working bred pup, and I admire that. I think that you'll learn by sticking around here that before you would ever consider breeding a border collie that you should make sure that your dog was trained to the highest levels of stock work. There is an amazing amount of experience and knowlege involved in breeding a border collie, and I see where you mention not wanting to be a backyard breeder - good for you. I think to avoid being considered a BYB it would be great if you'd stick around and learn from the folks here.

 

While that may be all slightly putting the cart before the horse, I think you sound very intellingent and open, and if you go into this all with the right attitude you'll be A-OK.

 

That being said you can go to the USBCHA's website, www.usbcha.com and look at "upcoming trials". See if you can't find a trial coming near you, and drag your parents over with you to watch. I think you'd be amazed at what you'd see, and you could start getting an idea of what you like about the dogs, and who to talk to.

 

Again, welcome.

[vanillalove]

Hi there, and welcome to the boards.

 

When I first came to the boards, I started a topic such as you just have. I was looking for reputable breeders and recommendations as to help me in my search for my next pup. I wasn't looking to breed him/her, I was just looking for a breeder. I thought I was asking a very responsible and reasonable question, but the replies I received weren't exactly what I was looking for to say the least.

 

First, I'd recommend you read the "Read This First" at the top of the forum to get a good idea of what these boards believe in.

 

Also, I'm providing you the link to the thread I started. It's long, but it'll show you the responses I received and also my learning curve. It was re-activated later by another user here with similar scenario to yours, so keep reading and you may learn a little. It's incredibly long but it was the start of incredible change that was going to happen in my knowledge about this breed.

 

Use the search function at the top right corner of the forums and search "Breeding", you'll find lots of older threads of other people who wanted the same information such as yourself.

 

Take a while to read all the the things I've told you about. You'll probably still get some comments you weren't expecting, but I hope I prepared you in a little way for them and that you can understand where they are coming from.

[Carson Crazies]

Are we all having some sort of collective mind thing, or what?

[Colton's_Mom]

I definantly will. I joined this board for a reason because I fully understand I do not know nearly as much on where to get started as most of the people on this board. I am not interested in rushing into this and I want to make a well educated decision if this is not the breed for me then it's fine and all the better if I find out sooner than later. I can't really get started attending sheepdog trials until mid November which is marching competitions stop. My Mom has agreed to attend these trials with me and is interested in sheepdog trials as well. Jodi, I didn't know if it was standard protocall or not but I put my grade in there to give a good idea of how old I am - most of the people on this board are adults (if I understand correctly) and there's a bit of a difference in being a minor and being an adult in what you can do.

 

 

edit: A couple people got up a few replies before I had even finished posting. I've been lurking around this forum for a while and have read the 'read this first' and emailed a few breeders just to try and learn more about the breed. I am all for being as knowledgeable as possible. The puppy would be my family's first Border Collie (my Dad's in love with Rottweilers they are the only breed we have ever owned besides my sister's dachsund mix). When I first started looking at the breed I wanted a conformation BC but stumbled upon this forum and my opinion has since changed I'm all for working. What I liked most about this forum was you seem to give it to me (or the other person who was posting) straight unlike some of the conformation breeders I emailed a while back where anything seemed possible.

[MrSnappy]

Now,

I understand about rescuing don't get me wrong but all of my current dogs/family dogs are rescues. I would potentially be alright breeding the puppy I get but only if her (prefferably a her) breeder was to advise it

 

Isn't this putting the proverbial cart before the horse? It seems to me that planning to breed a puppy you've not yet even met or that potentially does not even exist yet is a bit bass ackwards. Your first priority is to find a responsible breeder, and a quality puppy, that will make a rewarding addition to your home and life. Breeding should not be your goal at this juncture - it should not even factor into your puppy hunt at all.

 

I definantly don't want to ever come across as a BYB and want to do everything responsibly.

 

If this is the case, then why not simply look for a puppy, not a breeding prospect?

 

Responsible, quality breedings are done by experienced handlers who know how to evaluate a dog's strengths and weaknesses on stock; who have an understanding of pedigrees, working ability and a myriad of other nuances that a new handler / someone who is "herding" for "kicks and giggles" is not capable of understanding or evaluating with any degree of skill. Responsible breedings are what keep the border collie alive and well in its powerfully capable and useful form. Any other kind of breeding is the opposite of responsible, IMNSHO.

 

I want to get a puppy from a breeder so I can meet her parents, have no doubts about her history, and have a fair judge of her temperment.

 

I'm not sure what knowing a puppy's history would do for anyone, unless that person wanted to breed (see above points). And if someone has come up with a crystal ball that can predict a puppy's adult temperament, I'd love to see it. As has been discussed on the boards many times, puppies are a crapshoot - the only way to know exactly what you are getting is to adopt or purchase an adult dog with a fully formed personality, and one you've spent considerable time with. Otherwise, you're getting a huge unknown quantity with no guarantees. You might like to search the boards for more information on this topic, as it is here in abundance.

 

I would love to get into herding as well as dog sports just for kicks and giggles.

 

Many of us do these things with our rescues. Some of us do them seriously with our rescues. It seems to me that if your family has successfully adopted rescue dogs in the past, and enjoyed the experience, it would be a good road to go down again. Puppies are frequently found in rescue, if you have your heart set on a puppy.

 

If you want to purchase a puppy, that's fine too, but you shouldn't be purchasing a puppy with the intention of breeding it down the line. I would go so far as to say that if this is a major consideration in your decision to buy a puppy, potential breedings would be of a BYB nature. I frequently tell people that few to no responsible breeders breed their first dog. Certainly, very few people would gain the knowledge base necessary to create a very good breeding from a couple years of herding for "kicks and giggles."

 

Find a good breeder, buy a great puppy (or adopt a great rescue) but please leave the breeding to the people who are doing it for the right reasons.

 

RDM

[Tranquilis]

Let's start slowly, k?

Slowly, to be sure, but now is as good a time as any to start. Presuming solid family support, 9th grade is a fine time to learn - few job responsibilities to interfere, lots of time to practice come summer, old enough to be responsible, and to see the deeper implications...

 

But first, like the others, I'd suggest a bit of study. Learn what you're getting yourself into; Nothing wrong with learning from others. Not only should you read, read, read the information here on the boards, but I'd suggest you read up on raising and training dogs in general, away from the boards - There are a LOT of sources of information out there!

 

I'd recommend spending some time volunteering at a rescue - not only will that help you scratch your 'dog itch,' but you'll learn from the dogs, and from the other volunteers.

 

Find yourself a mentor; someone who does with dogs the kinds of things you'd like to do. Volunteering at a rescue will help you find such a person.

 

But mostly, as Jodi said; Start slowly - you've got time.

[ArchersMomma]

I think I'm consused..I think she's intending to obtain a puppy that has already been bred, not that she wants to get into breeding?

[Tranquilis]

I think I'm consused..I think she's intending to obtain a puppy that has already been bred, not that she wants to get into breeding?

How I parse it is that she's looking for a high-quality pup from a high-quality breeder.

[MrSnappy]

I would potentially be alright breeding the puppy I get

 

Perhaps her background in / experience with purebred dogs is more of a kennel club nature, where co-ownerships and agreements to "one litter out of the dog in the future" contractually are more the norm when buying puppies. A lot of ACK and CKC people I know have signed contracts like this when purchasing puppies. This way the breeder has the contractual opportunity to get more puppies out of his/her lines without having to personally own the bitches that are being bred.

 

RDM

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

When I said, "This is a good time to see some trials" I meant, the next few months. There's two at the end of November, for instance. Then mid-December. Then probably there will be some in spring, and then there's a very big trial in May with the best handlers/breeders/trainers from all over the country.

 

If you can't make time to see and even help out at such trials, then you certainly shouldn't be bringing a puppy into your home. Look what happened to Colton when you were busy with band camp.

 

Consider this very carefully when thinking about whether a puppy or a rescue would be a better idea. The rescue will come more or less WYSIWYG - it's much harder for inattentive family members to "ruin" a mature adult. You don't have to worry that a couple of weeks or a season of band competitions will come at a crucial time for training and you'll miss a chance to nip a small problem in the bud before it gets to be a BIG problem.

 

Just something to think about that came to me as I was answering your first post and when you said you didn't have time to go to trials. This is a common issue with high school students - please think carefully about when exactly you will be available to do the intense training a pup requires. Heck, we guide most adults towards rescues for this very reason.

[Tranquilis]

Perhaps her background in / experience with purebred dogs is more of a kennel club nature, where co-ownerships and agreements to "one litter out of the dog in the future" contractually are more the norm when buying puppies.

Ah!

 

Hadn't considered this possibility.

 

Anyway, she's approaching this in a pretty sensible manner - i.e. Asking before doing, and ready to listen. I'm all for that!

[Colton's_Mom]

Rebecca,

I totally agree, I'll definantly do whatever is best for me and my current situation as well as the dog. Currently I have no clue if I will being doing band when I move or not. Long story short I don't want to be in band my parents are making me. I know this is slightly off topic but if I can find another school related activity with people in my age range (12-16) that takes up roughly as much time as band (10 hours a week) I can quit so I'm really hoping I can find an active 4-H club when I move. Right now I am just trying to take in as much knowledge as possible I will know for sure if I can handle a puppy around February. I have no set time on when I want to look for a puppy/young adult rescue it just depends on when the time is right for me and my family.

 

Tranquilis, most of the breeders I have talked to (mind you this was still when I wanted a conformation collie) were AKC/BCSA breeders and it was sort of standard to have weird contracts such as the one described. I had no clue this wasn't/isn't standard in the working world.

[Tranquilis]

Tranquilis, most of the breeders I have talked to (mind you this was still when I wanted a conformation collie) were AKC/BCSA breeders and it was sort of standard to have weird contracts such as the one described. I had no clue this wasn't/isn't standard in the working world.

Agree with your description of those contracts as "weird." I'm involved in another breed club, and even though they're mostly conformation-based, they don't do this kind of thing. Co-ownership contracts, yes. But none of this "one dog out of the litter" business. No, the co-ownership contracts there are to provide positive control on breeding choices - The gene pool is limited at this time, and they're trying to manage the breed's genetic health very carefully.

 

In the working world, I've frankly never heard of it. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen; just that I've never heard of it.

[jdarling]

Colton's mom, please know that I wasn't putting your age in here for any purpose other than the fact that I happened to notice it in the other thread, and for other people to see that you're effectively a clean slate, young, smart, and seem very open to opinions. You seem like a responsible young lady and I think that's great. I'm sure you're aware that a thread can quickly turn into mob mentality, and I was hoping this thread could remain informative and helpful, and it seems it has done exactly that. I did not mean any offense by pointing out your age, and I apologize if I've offended you.

 

ETA: I'm on the opposite side of the country from you, but you're in good hands with Becca and Laura and company.

 

Jodi

[Colton's_Mom]

You didn't offend me at all, I just read your post wrong. I took it as you ment not to put my age or grade because of internet predators, see how paranoid I am?

[Lenajo]

There are all sorts of contracts in both the working and show world.

 

The first caveat I would offer is that no one can legally enter into a contract with a minor. So the breeder will have to contract what they want with your parents. Once the breeder knows your age they really should be talking to your parents first anyway.

 

contracts that insist in puppies back should be view with extreme caution. If the breeder really values the dog as potential (and that's all it is until years of training and work are done) breeding stock, then they would not want it with an inexperienced owner for one. And thats just one big red flag..there are a lot of reasons beyond that making this a bad idea for you.

 

My advice is you simple concentrate on a non-breeding dog of the right temperament and type for you and your family.

 

My guess is that you are around 15. That's a great age, but you need to remember that to do what you want (herd, etc) with a puppy the dog will only be coming into it's prime at 3. That's when you are 18. College, lots of life changes at that time....more than many can handle without a dog! If you got a dog that was older, say 3-5, you could start doing things now and then the mature 8+ year old would be easier to manage during your college years. That is assuming your parents can and will do that if you can't? (Most college dorms won't take dogs.) Sounds like you are already having trouble with the Rottie and your parents managment and training skills.

 

I welcome kids at my place to learn to work dogs. Hopefully someone here can find a place for you to go and learn in your area.

 

 

 

 

 

Agree with your description of those contracts as "weird." I'm involved in another breed club, and even though they're mostly conformation-based, they don't do this kind of thing. Co-ownership contracts, yes. But none of this "one dog out of the litter" business. No, the co-ownership contracts there are to provide positive control on breeding choices - The gene pool is limited at this time, and they're trying to manage the breed's genetic health very carefully.

 

In the working world, I've frankly never heard of it. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen; just that I've never heard of it.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I think 4-H is a good idea. I know someone in KY who does the local 4-H - she'd know about the programs in the area (not sure where she is exactly but she's the kind who would more know about the program than just her area). 4-H sheep is not exactly, er, real sheep, but finding out the difference between what 4-H wants and what the real market wants is still a great learning experience. I'm going through this with a family I'm working with locally.

 

Because it's a really intense activity, you find a lot of kids your age actually training and competing with the dogs, but you can get ready by learning about the sheep, and working with a dog who is primarily a companion.

 

I know this is a breed with lots of exciting potential, but it is best if you focus mostly on finding a canine friend to guide you through the next few years of dog ownership, learning to train, and maybe dabbling a bit with stock handling. That can happen in a lot of ways: adult rescue, rehome from a working trainer, purchased trained dog, or even a puppy if that turns out to be a wise thing to do after all.

[Jack & Co.]

Just something to think about that came to me as I was answering your first post and when you said you didn't have time to go to trials. This is a common issue with high school students - please think carefully about when exactly you will be available to do the intense training a pup requires. Heck, we guide most adults towards rescues for this very reason.

 

That was/has been my sons' experiences in high school--very little time for extra fun stuff. They were really tied up with their Honors and AP classes because the colleges they wanted to get in expected to see that level of schoolwork. One plays baseball and the other competed in Quiz Bowl.

 

Just my two cents as the mom of a college freshman and a high school junior.......

[Lizmo]

I hesitate to even post. Because I'm 15YO (almost 16!) and I don't want to come across as "Oh, yeah it's doable!". I put ALOT of thought and even at one point thought I wouldn't get another dog untill I was out of college. But I have tremendous support from my parents if/when I need something. And I pay for most all my dogs things except food -this I do sometimes- and vet bills (which do make up alot of dog ownership, I know, but it's a start).

 

My advice is you simple concentrate on a non-breeding dog of the right temperament and type for you and your family.

 

First, I agree 110% with this. This is partly why I went with a puppy. So I could shape and mold his temperment to the way I liked and needed. Because for me to add another dog, the dog's temperment was extremely important.

 

Colton's_Mom,

 

I agree with alot of what others are saying. I would suggest you find a trainer. Maybe you could go by a few times and watch him/her work a dog or two of him/hers, and visit with the dogs to see what a well bred, trained Border Collie's temperment is like. To make sure you are set on a BC. I'm very grateful for having a great trainer.

 

For me, the ONLY reason I didn't go with an adult dog was because I wanted to be sure the dog could grow up with my dogs. Because before the dog was going to be a stockdog, it would have to fit in with my family and other dogs.

 

I think you could also benefit if you could go to a trial - even just as a spectator. Thats one of the things I wish I would have done before I got Blaze. (There weren't alot of trials in this area and when there were, timing or having 3 little siblings who do sports, got in the way).

 

While still deciding, I suggest you do alot of research about the breed. There are great posts here (I can't tell you how much I've learned here!) and good books out about Border Collies and Herding.

 

Another reason I was able to get a BC pup was I'm Homeschooled. So I am home almost all day except for a few classes I go to once a week or field trips.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

I think the advice of going to some trials is a great one. Border collies are everywhere in your area. I pull at least 1 pure bred a month (shelter) most much more and in every color of the rainbow. I've pulled PB pups too that are currently very active in learing herding.

 

So, the avenue of helping with rescue would also be a great one too work in. If you can get with someone experienced in herding to train possibly you would be able to rescue a great dog that shows alot of promise. That way you would be able to start off quickly.

 

I really cant afford to train right now but, I bought a pup 2 years ago and Honestly the 2 best dogs I have for herding training prospects are rescued. One right from the bowling green area.

 

Best of luck exploring your avenues

[Katelynn & Gang]

I think 4H is a great idea. Not only can you show sheep and learn about them (which is great experience if you want to do herding!), you can show your dog and learn sooooo much.

 

As for a puppy. You either need to really look into getting a puppy from someone who trials in ISDS type trials and does well or look into getting a working bred rescue (and you can and will find one if you look).

 

But then you also need to take into consideration that Border Collies a lot of the time are one person dogs. The dog will be yours but you mother/father will also need to take care of the puppy while you are at school. You need to be spending enough time outside of school to bond any puppy you night get to you personally rather then your parents who will have 8 hours a day more with the puppy then you (maybe more if you are doing band or hanging out with friends).

 

Then for breeding. That should really be the farthest thing from your mind. Unless you by chance get some kind of amazing working bred puppy who grows up to show enough talent without being trained to its fullest (or maybe you'll have enough time to train it to its fullest but that is a lot of work) to impress someone of knowledge enough to convince them the dog is worth breeding with one of theirs, it just wont happen. I mean, it does happen but not often enough to bank on it.

 

So if you are going to get a Border Collie, get one that you can learn to herd with (as it is by far the most interesting thing you can do with them) and at a time when it is going to work for you. Spay/neuter that dog and love it with all your heart. You’ll get to play with a lot of litters if you do herding as a hobby and the best part is, you’ll get to go home and never have to clean up after them (and believe me, it’s a pain getting up at 5 am to feed, potty and clean up after 6 puppies and mom to just go to school smelling like poppy puppies!).

 

Oh and JFYI if I was to have to start over being a new Border Collie owner, I’d get myself a male dog. They are just much nicer and I believe would be much easier on the soul of a first time Border Collie owner then a female.

 

Good luck and ask lots of question! Its the only way you'll learn!

 

Katelynn

[afrancis]

Oh and JFYI if I was to have to start over being a new Border Collie owner, I’d get myself a male dog. They are just much nicer and I believe would be much easier on the soul of a first time Border Collie owner then a female.

 

EEeek

I've only ever had females (2) and don't know any better. However, I would never say this as a general rule. Would anybody else? Surely it depends on the individual dog. Last time I checked, my soul was intact .

Ailsa