Out Of Goose Control

[DTrain]

I have pulled my dogs out of a goose control job with a major customer. This customer has questioned that my services are too expensive and would like me to lower my rates. He feels that my trained dogs are not needed and that I charge higher rates because I claim my dogs are trained goose dogs. This customer was approached by a retired guy who has a couple of dogs. They are not trained dogs or BC's but the guy is much cheaper than me and since he is retired he can hang around. He says his dogs love to chase geese and other things. I am hearing this more often and it seems that more and more dogs are showing up to work geese because they like to chase geese. I got an email recently from a guy looking for a job. He said in his email that he takes his dog to a local park and the dog chases geese and other birds. He said he thought it would be nice to get paid for chasing geese since he goes to the park all the time anyway. Perhaps he can also get into police work if his dog bites.

[Sue R]

Sure, and maybe I should be a cop because I can shoot a gun.

 

They will get what they pay for, and too bad that it is hurting your business.

[urge to herd]

I hope someone else chimes in here, because I'm NOT the expert, but DTrain, one of the things that has impressed me so much from your postings is your knowledge of the wild geese and the, I'm going to use precision, with which you approached working the dogs on geese.

 

If you could somehow convey to your potential employers that you have this degree of expertise, and that dogs chasing geese around doesn't remove them permanently from the area, I'd think that would elevate your competence in the eyes of those potential employers.

 

Things to ponder for your marketing. You might also keep track of the results of the untrained dogs chasing geese - any accidents, are the geese really gone, are any geese hurt, etc.

 

Oh, and I can use the computer's word processing programs. I guess that means I can write 10 best sellers in a row!

 

Ruth n the BC3

[Root Beer]

Speedy and I are definitely ready for broadway! LOL!!

 

I agree with what Urge to Herd said. Marketing can make a huge difference - especially when it comes to a field that people know very little about and have no clue that there is really anything to know about it!

[Bo Peep]

DTrain-

I am so sorry for your loss of wages and the incompetent people in the world. They do not realize that "controlled" geese work is different than "chasing them". This will bring a diminish to the geese. They will be stressed and not CONTROLED. It's just chasing. There is a difference. I respect your dogs for what they do. I hope that soon- very soon- they realize the difference. For both you and the geese!

[jdarling]

They do not realize that "controlled" geese work is different than "chasing them...

 

Ok ... I guess I am not understanding perhaps how goose control works. To me, a trained goose dog would know its flanks, have a good stop, have an outrun, and be able to take commands at a distance. That would all be very handy for the handler. But the idea is still to "chase" the geese away, no? I mean, do the geese see an untrained dog coming and say, "Uh oh, let's get the flock outta here! This dog doesn't know what he's doing. Braaaack braaack braaaack," and then when they see a trained dog, do they pull the cigar out of their mouth, unrecline their chair and say, "Oh Mildred, we'll need to move out in a few ... here comes Mr. Trained Sheepdog who will ask us politely to move, but please finish your coffee first."

 

To me, the price difference would reflect the knowledge of the company of the habits of geese and how to erradicate them from my property. I thought goose work had a lot to do with the mating patterns and such of the geese, no? Dogs can chase them till doomsday, but if the geese figure the habits of the dogs out, they just work around it, no?

 

DTrain, sorry to hear about the loss of business. Sounds like the business owner will get what they paid for.

 

Jodi

[Bo Peep]

Ok ... I guess I am not understanding perhaps how goose control works. To me, a trained goose dog would know its flanks, have a good stop, have an outrun, and be able to take commands at a distance. That would all be very handy for the handler. But the idea is still to "chase" the geese away, no? I mean, do the geese see an untrained dog coming and say, "Uh oh, let's get the flock outta here! This dog doesn't know what he's doing. Braaaack braaack braaaack," and then when they see a trained dog, do they pull the cigar out of their mouth, unrecline their chair and say, "Oh Mildred, we'll need to move out in a few ... here comes Mr. Trained Sheepdog who will ask us politely to move, but please finish your coffee first."

 

To me, the price difference would reflect the knowledge of the company of the habits of geese and how to erradicate them from my property. I thought goose work had a lot to do with the mating patterns and such of the geese, no? Dogs can chase them till doomsday, but if the geese figure the habits of the dogs out, they just work around it, no?

 

DTrain, sorry to hear about the loss of business. Sounds like the business owner will get what they paid for.

 

Jodi

 

I think it's like sheep work, quietly move the geese- not chase them. Kind of simple. Keep them easy and under control- not running like a bat out of hell. I'm no "goose expert" worked a few. Yet, it's like sheep, quiet handling. Moving the geese slowly. Not just letting some dog out to chase. Would anyone want an untrained dog out to chase their sheep? That's not sheep herding. Same with geese. They are animals, should be respected. Any untrained dog can chase them. I've only worked them a few times and they aren't that ez. If you want to keep them in the vicinities of the area and yet keep them OFF what your working (golf course, airline strip, etc...) I remember Rob Lewis- showing my age. He did some wonderful geese work.

[stockdogranch]

I don't know a thing about geese, or getting them to leave one's property, but

 

do the geese see an untrained dog coming and say, "Uh oh, let's get the flock outta here! This dog doesn't know what he's doing. Braaaack braaack braaaack," and then when they see a trained dog, do they pull the cigar out of their mouth, unrecline their chair and say, "Oh Mildred, we'll need to move out in a few ... here comes Mr. Trained Sheepdog who will ask us politely to move, but please finish your coffee first."

 

This was REALLY funny!!

 

Sorry, DTrain,

 

A

[jdarling]

I think it's like sheep work, quietly move the geese- not chase them. Keep them easy and under control- not running like a bat out of hell.

 

Dog approaches ... geese fly away. Right? Self-protection mechanism built right in ... yes?

 

How does a dog "keep them easy and under control" when the geese are in the air and the dogs are on the ground?

[mbc1963]

Yeah, I've wondered about this too... how my dog chasing the geese up into the air would be different if he were trained.

 

My understanding of the goose problem (which is limited, I admit) is that geese are a problem for two reasons. 1. People feed them and make it feasible for them to stay in colder areas longer, thus reducing their need to fly south for the winter, and 2. People create big, green, open spaces near ponds and lakes, where in the past, there would have been woods. Geese, who are accustomed to summering in the bare, open spaces of the tundra thus find a local golf course or park a suitable alternative. So geese who didn't used to live in, say, Massachusetts, now settle down here.

 

I guess I should toss in 3. Geese are pretty much safe from hunting when they're in a child's park, or at a local reservoir, or on a golf course.

 

At any rate, I thought the goal was to get geese not to nest where they never used to nest in olden times. Seems as though letting them stay around in places where they don't belong isn't helpful... no matter how they're handled. If this is the case, wouldn't it make sense for a city or golf course to encourage dog walkers to patrol, so geese sense that there are "predators" around, and avoid the area completely?

 

Again, I'm not an expert. I can only speak for Canada geese, which are the big problem around here and which, I think, didn't used to nest here.

 

Mary

[RuthBelle]

Wouldn't some guy with a couple of loose house dogs chasing geese potentially be considered "harrassing wildlife" by the DNR or whatever governmental agency is in charge of wildlife in your state???? I'm gonna have to look up what Wisconsin considers "harrassement" as compared to "controlled removal". Wisconsin's DNR is pretty damn picky about wildlife control and I'm sure you'd have to at least be licensed to do it!

 

I wonder if the old geezer with the "dogs who like to chase geese" is insured, bonded, liscensed and prepared to answer questions of the general public regarding goose work.

 

If geese or someone gets injured by the old guy or others whose "dogs like to chase geese" the general public who views such incidents aren't gonna know that these weren't trained dogs, and it will put all the "goose control" professionals in a bad light.

[Bo Peep]

Dog approaches ... geese fly away. Right? Self-protection mechanism built right in ... yes?

 

How does a dog "keep them easy and under control" when the geese are in the air and the dogs are on the ground?

walk up quietly. I know nothing....nothing about geese control. But I imagine it would take a highly skilled handler to do this. AND a very talented dog.

[juliepoudrier]

I think there are several issues here.

 

1. A trained goose dog isn't likely to go to town and have a ton of fun and kill one if it happens to catch it. Not only would that be illegal, but it would be extremely bad PR. Any old dog can chase geese, sure, but can any old dog do it in such a way as to not offend the general public and wreak havoc in public areas?

 

2. Goose control is more than just chasing geese. The person doing the work should have a basic understanding of goose habits, including when it is appropriate to chase and when it's not. For example, geese with goslings that are unable to fly would be off limits to chasing. Knowing nesting habits and when is the best time to harass to prevent nesting in the first place are I'm not sure part of JQ's general knowledge base. It is completely inappropriate to harass nesting geese. And a gander protecting a nest site isn't something you necessarily want to tangle with anyway. Sometimes you must do your goose control work at odd hours. JQ looking for a bit of fun on the afternoon walk isn't going to be effective if the geese simply change their habits/timing.

 

3. Migratory geese are federally protected. If you can't show that the geese you're harassing are indeed a resident population and not migratory, then you could get yourself in trouble (you being JQ with any old dog).

 

4. Some goose control work (and sometimes a lot) involves being out on the water in a canoe with a dog who swims. Not even considering the risk to JQ and JQ's dog, I just don't think their are many average people or their pets who are equipped to do this.

 

5. Liability issues: who's going to pay if the average dog walker and his/her dog who likes to chase geese gets hurt, or doG forbid, killed while out having fun chasing geese. You actually have to know things like how long your dog can safely swim in cold water. And if you're just chasing geese on land with a nonswimming dog, how long do you think it would take the geese to figure out that they need only hang out in the water when people and dogs are around?

 

6. The reason that goose control with dogs has become so popular is precisely because there are actually knowledgable, insured professionals out there doing it right. If you (the general you) want to end all chances for dogs to do goosework, just go ahead and screw up a few times. Public opinion will turn against the idea (even the most anti-goose person probably doesn't want to see maimed geese and bloody carcasses on the local news), and whatevee entity got burned by the amateur will likely be turned off from the idea forever (this is the case at some golf courses in the Myrtle Beach/Pawley's Island area of SC--when I talked about the possibility of doing some work there, the golf courses had been served by someone who didn't know what they were doing, it left a bad taste in their collective mouths, and now they have no interest in every using dogs for goose control).

 

7. Goose control is similar to bird control on runways. Anyone want to suggest they take their pet out to the local airport to have fun chasing the birds there?

 

And no, I don't even do goose control, but I certainly can't see how folks think it would be a good idea to let anyone turn their dogs loose on problem geese without a good knowledge of federal laws, goose habits, and all the standard methods used for their control.

 

 

ETA: I see that RuthBelle has posted some of the same concerns.

 

J.

[airbear]

At one of our local multisport fields, dog owners are encouraged to let their dogs chase the large flock of Canadian Geese. So when we were there for an agility trial, a few of my friends suggested that Lou "do something with the geese". Alrighty, why not, my Tim Hortons sherpa is asking so nicely.

 

Send the big lug, he does a nice cast about 200 yards out, puts together two largish flocks (maybe 200 birds in total) and proceeds to fetch them towards us. That's right, these bloody things didn't fly away, but instead walked briskly and complained noisily. About halfway through the fetch, my friend said "You know, we really don't want them here on the agility field". Poor Lou had to flank to the heads (beaks?) and then drive them back to where he found them. And not one took flight. Very strange. I guess we did it wrong.

 

I do find the dogs who work at the Vancouver Airport to be fascinating. Apparently, they know just how far they are to go (ex. do not run onto the tarmac), and they know their job is to clear their specific areas of birds. My understanding is that these birds are largely migratory, though, not permanent residents.

[RuthBelle]

Well, I just looked up Wisconsin's DNR goose problem site, and apparently it isn't considered harrassment to chase them away (by any means) as long as you "don't touch them" or mess with eggs/nests. It was in a PDF and I couldn't get it to copy for some reason.

 

I found one link of a goose dog control company that covers southern Wis/northern Ill. and it states they're licensed (doesn't say what for or with whom). Big company with at least a dozen handlers and BC's in a photo. (By the way, they're hiring!).

 

While Dtrain's ex-customer may save a few bucks up front by hiring just anyone with "a dog who likes to chase geese", they may wind up paying with bucketloads of bad public relations karma down the road.

[Shetlander]

Very strange. I guess we did it wrong.

 

My Lhasas' technique is to run at the geese like possessed teddy bears so the birds want to get the heck out of Dodge ASAP. After a couple times of that experience, the geese would fly off as soon as they saw us. I only ever wanted them off property (didn't care where they went or if they just headed into the water) so that is the extent of my goose control font of knowledge.

 

D Train, so sorry to hear of this development for you. I agree that the business owner will get what he paid for and these amateurs with untrained dogs are headed straight for trouble.

[bcnewe2]

I would think insurance and goose harrassment would come into play big time.

Plus being able to have your dog undercontrol at all times is quite the bonus.

 

When I checked into doing goose work on golf courses in St. Louis long ago, half the country clubs owned their own dog. Not really goose trained but safe and ISTM that because they were resident dogs, the geese never settled. I"m sure had one insurance incident come into play, things would have changed drasticly.

 

DTrain I'm sorry that happened but look on the positive side, for now it gives you more time to get you and the pups adjusted to life in the city. You'll find more work when your ready. The PR that you recieved can lead you other places for business. You could also put together a brochure explaining the legalities, insurance issues and exactly what you are doing with your dogs. It might help persuade them into using a professional.

 

Kristen

[Tranquilis]

Damn.

People are so ignorant. Penny wise, pound foolish, they have no respect for the actual economies of hiring a professional. Instead, they hire on the cheap, and end up paying a lot more for it in the long run.

 

Sorry, du - that sux.

[Dixie_Girl]

I think the difference in a trained dog and an untrained dog is that the untrained dog is going go running willy nilly, chasing, and barking. It would be no different than people making a big flap around them. BUT, a trained dog is going to go in looking every bit as a predator. The geese will read what a trained dog is doing as a preditory approach. After all, dogs sent out to work sheep is the same system wolves use in hunting. We just train/breed the kill out of the hunt. If the geese feel the dog is a preditor, they will not want to stay and start nests, etc.. If the dog is just running and chasing, the geese will react as if the dogs are just a temporary annoyance.

[KrisK]

HI DTrain,

 

I would encourage you to talk to the MNR. It would seem to me that 'just any old dog and person' doing goose control is actually in violation of the Fish & Game act. I've attached the link to the act for you. Good luck!

 

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/...tes_97f41_e.htm

[juliepoudrier]

DTrain,

Is it possible that the loss of the account is related to the recent problems you've been having with your dogs, or have those problems not actually affected your current goose control efforts? Just wondering if perhaps the loss of the account is about more than just finding someone to do it cheaper.

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

I think the difference in a trained dog and an untrained dog is that the untrained dog is going go running willy nilly, chasing, and barking.

 

 

Self Control, the trained dog has self control so that he/she can still take direction while performing the task.

 

IMO, any dog that chases exhibits a lapse in self control and is incapable of taking direction from the handler until the dogs mind comes back to him. Right there is a selling point for trained goose dogs vs. just chasing dogs, that lapse of self control is where the liability risk comes in, that's when the dog ends up out in traffic, taking down a wounded goose, runs into pedestrians or proceeds to chase things that should not be chased. Chasing is not herding, chasing is not hunting, chasing is an adreneline rush.

 

I guess from my view, many people doing goose control are not going about it correctly, my feeling is that a dog doing goose control work should be trained to no less then a pro-novice level or capable of doing pro-novice work correctly, with handlers that understand how to maintain that level of work and how to use it.

 

 

Deb

[MaryP]

Poor Lou had to flank to the heads (beaks?) and then drive them back to where he found them. And not one took flight. Very strange. I guess we did it wrong.

 

They may have been molting. Geese molt all their flight feathers at once. This renders them flightless for a month or so. I used to capture geese to band them for migration studies and this is the time of year that you catch them because they won't (can't) fly away from you.

 

Also, if a species is considered a "nuisance" is some areas, it might not have the same amount and type of protection as other wildlife.

[jdarling]

One of the things I never understood with goose work is where the dog gets rewarded.

 

If the dog does his job right, the reward flies off.

If the dog does his job wrong, the reward flies off.

If the handler is wrong, the reward flies off.

If the handler is right, the reward flies off.

 

With sheep work, when the dog flanks correctly, we give them their sheep (let them walk up on them). When they do a nice outrun, they get their sheep. When they drive correctly, we can turn it into a fetch and take the pressure off. What is the training philosophy behind goose work? How is the dog rewarded for correct work? Also, in talking to people who train stockdogs, it sounds to me like they send their failed stockdogs to be goosedogs. Why is that?

 

Jodi

[Shetlander]

If the geese feel the dog is a preditor, they will not want to stay and start nests, etc.. If the dog is just running and chasing, the geese will react as if the dogs are just a temporary annoyance.

 

Unless the dog lives there, like some of the golf courses are doing. Not saying that all those dogs are untrained, but just speaking from my experience of living next to a lake with a large goose population, they did quickly learn to stay clear of my yard. In fact, as soon as I stepped out my back door, dog or no dog, they would raise an alarm. And I only had an untrained Lhasa. But if the dog isn't on the property 24/7, I think an untrained dog would only be a temporary nuisance, as you say.

 

One of the things I never understood with goose work is where the dog gets rewarded.

 

It is just the thrill of the chase for my untrained dogs. The same thrill they get going after squirrels and rabbits, though they very rarely ever make a kill. It might be the same for trained dogs? Interesting question.