AKC vs. Other Herding (Working) Breeds

[kelpiegirl]

Not that I know of. One reason is because ASCA rewards versatility so much. So, you want your aussie to perform well in many venues- obedience, herding, agility, conformation- you name it.

[mjk05]

to the picture of the Barbie Collie...

 

Aaaagh!! My eyes!! They burn!!! It's so ugly!!!!

Its not about the looks, Jaderbug. That's the whole point- working border collies aren't defined by NOT being stocky, fluffy, whatever- they are defined by their working ability. Its not a case of "their dogs are ugly squat fluffy things, our dogs are tall, lean, athletic handsome dogs", because the whole point of the border collie is that they come in a range of appearances.

 

I've seen working border collies that have lots of coat and physically aren't too different from some show dogs. The primary difference isn't the fluff and the build- its the purpose and the ability. Someone could breed long legged, smooth coated, prick eared border collies, based solely on their looks (or some other criteria other than work- maybe sports?) and it would be just as bad.

 

That's why I'm really uncomfortable with the whole "look at this ugly show border collie" thing that crops up here (and other places) every now and then- its basically the same as the "look at this ugly working border collie" thing that happens in show circles, and both discussions are totally missing the point. It doesn't matter what they look like.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I've thought some about this question, and I think the problem is that they actually invite people to judge their dogs by their appearance. It doesn't make it sensible, it's still true that we are applying two standards when we yield to the temptation. However, it's really irresistable when they say, "Our dogs are the most beautiful and ideal looking and this is the standard for a working dog!" One wants so badly to snap back, "You are crazy! In what universe do you think that rear end, those short legs, that heavy coat, and that squared-off front are going to be able to do real work?"

 

The trendsetters in conformation do whatever the heck they want, and then try to reverse engineer a justification (in terms of function) for doing what's merely aesthetically pleasing. And it's all fantasy and it's really hard to resist the temptation to point that out.

[mjk05]

it's really hard to resist the temptation to point that out.

I know, I feel the same way. But I think its important to resist the temptation, because engaging in any discussion of how form influences function just perpetuates the myth that conformation breeding can have any sort of positive effect on working ability. Let's face it, most conformation breeders have no experience working dogs and really believe that a dog needs to look a certain way to be able to work. You have to see it and do it to understand the whole other realm of qualities that makes up a good working dog.

 

Since the only way to assess working ability is to work the dog, what's the point of discussing how much rear angulation or how much bone or what tail set is best for a working dog? You have to get out and work the dog.

[kelpiegirl]

Maybe he doesn't recognize folks in Bierkenstoks, or with Ipods? Could be! If you tell us he has started chewin/spittin Skoal, we're in trouble.

 

I am beginning to understand perhaps why my young dog Dave barks at people. Perhaps he is not fear aggressive at all, perhaps he is attempting to defend the real stock dog, ranch working border collie. He is a farm boy from southern Alberta and perhaps has a cowboy opinion.

[DTrain]

I don't have a problem with the appearance of the dog in the picture. I don't have a problem with people who merely want to breed dogs to show them. I don't have a problem with people who simply want a border collie as a pet. What I do have a problem with is that AKC, Westminster and other groups that dominate the media have presented that dog as a border collie and as a working breed. They have done such a good job that most of the world and the new world that I live in believes that is what a border collie is and that is what it should look like. Shores dog Juno is such a far cry from that dog I can fully understand how uninformed people or media informed would believe Juno has got to be mixed with something else. My own dog Dave ( I am trying to get more pictures of him ) looks like an Aardvark compared to this dog. His nose is too long, his tail drags on the ground, he is too skinny and his hair is too short, he must be mixed with something. My job I guess is to inform the world that there are now two different border collies, the show bred dog and the working dog and they are very different, in fact they may well have progressed seperatly enough already that they are two different breeds. Perhaps when people ask me now what my dogs are I will say that they are working bred border collies and Dave was crossed with a working Aardvark by one of the top working Aardvark breeders in the world. But seriously there is now such a vast difference between the two dogs that something must be done to inform the world that there is a difference. There is not likely any chance that AKC will do anything about this although for some reason they like to call these dogs American border collies. I am not sure how we can get the point across. I almost feel fortunate now at least in my small world that my dogs are quickly gaining a public profile and I will not hesitate to use that situation to educate people. Thanks god for you breeders out there and I congratulate you for your efforts to bring us the best working BC's in the world. Attached I hope is a shot of the latest Westminster working breed champion. This dog is also a long way from its roots.

[Janba]

Attached I hope is a shot of the latest Westminster working breed champion. This dog is also a long way from its roots.

 

Except mthats an Aussie shepherd not a border collie.

[DTrain]

I am aware it is an Aussie and it is a fine example of another herding dog bred for looks. I will try to find out but I am not aware that Westminster has ever had a border collie champion.

[kelpiegirl]

Actually, that Aussie isn't nearly as bad as many I have seen. Also, to enter Westminster, your dog has to have it's championship already, so no, they haven't gotten the highly sought after best in show, they certainly have their entries.

 

I am aware it is an Aussie and it is a fine example of another herding dog bred for looks. I will try to find out but I am not aware that Westminster has ever had a border collie champion.

[JaderBug]

to the picture of the Barbie Collie...

 

Aaaagh!! My eyes!! They burn!!! It's so ugly!!!! haha...

 

ok so I was actually joking here... I know it's not about the appearance. It is ugly because it is an imposter. It doesn't deserve the name of 'Border Collie.' It can't work properly, it probably wouldn't know what a sheep was if it kicked him in the head. Attached is a beautiful dog... it is beautiful because it can work, therefore it deserves the name 'Border Collie.' I'm well aware of the fact that true working BCs do not have any standard of appearance. The Barbie Collie is ugly because it does have a standard appearance. All cookie-cutter. Our beloved BCs come in a variety of shapes, sizes, and colors, and that's another thing (IMO) that makes them so much fun. As long as you're breeding for workability, you never know what the package is going to look like.

[DTrain]

Jader, it is always a fun surprise with a new litter. In the past eight years we have had 3 litters. The first was believe or not 11 puppies, 3 of them did not survive. The litter had 4 dogs almost completely white. Our next litter was 6 puppies and two of them were red and white while the others were black and white but mostly black. Our last litter was four puppies and all four of them were black and white and two of them were twins. I kept one thinking it was going to turn out like his dad, a big strong husky cattle dog but instead we got Dave, a skinny Aardvark looking creature. I am proud to say that in spite of the fact our puppies are not the prettiest BC's in the world, not one of them will ever conform to AKC standards all have great homes and three quarters of them are on working ranches doing what they were bred to do.

[1sheepdoggal]

I recently told my mom about the movie Mist, and encouraged her to view it. She loved it, ( I knew she would!) and wrote me an e-mail after she had. My mom loves to watch the AKC dog shows on TV and had raised show poodles for many years while I was growing up, so is familiar with AKC, standards and conformation. She has never been to a sheepdog trail, and so I was amazed ( and proud) at what she had noticed ( and that she had)about the differences in the breeds. IE Barbie collies verses working BC's. I asked if she would mind if I shared a portion of her e-mail with you all, and she had no problem with it, so here is what my aging 70 year old mom recognized all on her own about the differences. I thought it was pretty cool.

 

 

I have to tell you, I dearly loved 'Mist"...what an adorable movie. Watching those dogs do what they are born to do is fascinating. No wonder you enjoy your animals as you do. Your baby reminded me of Mist. Isn't it amazing how many different colorations and designs Border Collies have? Not at all like an AKC Border Collie, with the white collar and the rest is black...you know, marked like Lassie. AKC Border Collies all look alike, but Working Border Collies don't.

[DTrain]

I came across a AKC website I had not seen before. It is a page entitled, Getting Started In Herding. I am not surprised that so many AKC folks figure that they are developing and training dogs for herding and that they think what they do in AKC events is herding. The second paragraph on the page states;

The purpose of the competitive herding trial program is to preserve and develop the herding skills inherent in the herding breeds and to demonstrate that they can perform the useful functions for which they were originally bred.

I am not surprised that many people can mistake what they see in an AKC event for real life herding training or stock work. Performing the useful function for which they were originally bred at an AKC event is a far cry from reality.

[D Strickland]

Ugly or not ... the AKC just wants your money and the power associated with doing whatever they want. The newest thing with the AKC is that you can register you designer dog regardless of what breed bred with what other breed - as long as they are both registered. So designer dogs will now be registered.

 

Dave S

www.outrunbc.com

 

 

 

yes, the Jack Russell fought it tought and nail, even going to court over the right to the name. Hence the AKC has the "Parson Russell".

 

The Aussie fought it before the BC- and lost

 

The Cavalier King Charles Spanial also fought it and lost

 

The Kelpie is the only breed that was able to fight it and win. They were removed from the AKC "holding tank" (aka the "miscillaneous class") and have their own registry only. Part of what helped the Kelpie is the lack of public "want" for the breed. AKC really can't make money of something isn't cute and flashy. (and I think a good working Kelpie is plenty flashy, but lets face it, standing around it looks like an ACD/Dobie cross)

 

I wish BCs were ugly. Maybe they would have left us alone.

[Lenajo]

I don't think you have your information right on this one. At least regarding the registration of mixed breeds LOL

 

 

Ugly or not ... the AKC just wants your money and the power associated with doing whatever they want. The newest thing with the AKC is that you can register you designer dog regardless of what breed bred with what other breed - as long as they are both registered. So designer dogs will now be registered.

 

Dave S

www.outrunbc.com

[D Strickland]

I came across a AKC website I had not seen before. It is a page entitled, Getting Started In Herding. I am not surprised that so many AKC folks figure that they are developing and training dogs for herding and that they think what they do in AKC events is herding. The second paragraph on the page states;

The purpose of the competitive herding trial program is to preserve and develop the herding skills inherent in the herding breeds and to demonstrate that they can perform the useful functions for which they were originally bred.

I am not surprised that many people can mistake what they see in an AKC event for real life herding training or stock work. Performing the useful function for which they were originally bred at an AKC event is a far cry from reality.

[D Strickland]

.

 

I don't think you have your information right on this one. At least regarding the registration of mixed breeds LOL

[Lenajo]

oh, I'm in full agreement about the AKC and money. My comment was regarding the registering of mixed breeds. As of yet, AKC has not showed any signs of wanting to do that beyond the proposed system for spayed and neutered dogs of any pedigree/or not to compete in sports.

 

That so far has been beaten back, not because of the potential push for designer mixed breeds, but because most AKC proponents are quite pubically horrified at the idea of allowing "unpure" dogs in the same ring as theirs.

[Eileen Stein]

I came across a AKC website I had not seen before. It is a page entitled, Getting Started In Herding. I am not surprised that so many AKC folks figure that they are developing and training dogs for herding and that they think what they do in AKC events is herding. The second paragraph on the page states;

The purpose of the competitive herding trial program is to preserve and develop the herding skills inherent in the herding breeds and to demonstrate that they can perform the useful functions for which they were originally bred.[emphasis added]

 

If the purpose is "to demonstrate that your dogs can perform the useful functions for which they were bred," then you have to make the trial easy enough that the dogs can generally do whatever it calls for, or you've failed in your purpose. You're assuming that they CAN perform those useful functions, and so you must jigger the trial to ensure that the fact you're assuming is demonstrated. The mindset of real sheepdog trials is "to determine whether your dogs can perform the useful functions for which they were bred." A significant difference.

[Tranquilis]

Ah. So it's outcomes-based education for herding/working dogs, then?

[Bo Peep]

I admit I haven't read through all the pages of this. BUT, I have known from before Aussie's were in the misc. category that you could buy from 2 breeders. One for show- one that works-THAT shows my age here. Also with Golden's, they have a "look" to them, the more red that appears, the greater the worker.

In all cases, if you want a dog that does what it is MEANT to do, you should go to those kind of trials and search for that type of breeder. If you want a retriever, go to the trials and find a responsible breeder. Same with BC's search and research the breeds.

All of the ACK breeds have been bred back to back for pretty.They forget the brains, forget everything else. If you want a pup that excels in what you want to achieve, go to the trials you want to achieve in and talk to the trainers. Even if you want a pet, don't let the "pet community direct you wrong". And DO NOT BUY FROM SPORT DOG BREEDERS!!!

Take responsibility in the breed you consider and do the right thing.

A wonderful bred herding dog WILL excel in sports- let's keep the herding breed going.

Buy from an open breeder- I can give you a name or two.

PM me.