AKC vs. Other Herding (Working) Breeds

[Sue R]

Janet's from Tennessee or Arkansas (or somewhere in between), I think. I saw her working Caret at an Elvin Kopp clinic, where she worked on sheep and cattle. Very impressive, and a good role model for a someone who wants to handle with a quiet, low-stress style.

[kelpiegirl]

I myself prefer the screaming, high stress role models myself

Don't we all strive for that? It ain't that we don't want it, it's achieving it, therein lies the rub.

[stockdogranch]

Arkansas. She's been to the Cattle Finals the past two years,

A

[Soda-pop]

I wonder if ABCA did not allow dual registration and you had to choose sides, so to speak, if the schism between "AKC" bred BCs and working BCs would become greater and if a name change would then be implemented/warranted. I also wonder then if the millers that register their dogs through the ABCA would hurryandswitch to AKC (I know I've mentioned it before but my rescue bc was originally bought at a pet store and is from a puppy mill and is ABCA registered)

 

I also can't help but wonder if the schism was deeper if it would help protect the working population. Seems like it would.

[hsnrs]

We bred our ASCA reg. girl to a AKC/ASCA registered male with his WTCH title. She had 4 pups and we had trouble selling them for a good price. We live in the boonies so folks don't have lots of money to spend. We still try to breed the best dogs we can from working lines. N

[Eileen Stein]

So is it just too late now to rescind ABC registration upon registering a dog with the AKC as a policy going forward?

 

Why couldn't ABCA refuse to allow any registrations and memberships by anyone who also registered AKC (or UKC or whatever other KC registries or "fake and fly-by-night" so-called registries are out there) as well as USBCHA not allow competition by folks who register AKC or dogs who are registered AKC?

 

Timing is everything in life. At the time of recognition, decisive action would have been easy and highly effective. Virtually the whole working dog community was united against AKC recognition, and rejected the idea of AKC registration. But though the ABCA did state in its rules that it would not register dogs descended from any dog registered with the AKC, it dithered about how to interpret this rule and did not enforce it with regard to dual registered dogs. Basically, it put off thinking about the issue, largely because the AKC at that time was saying that it would close its studbook to non-AKC border collies in three years. People believed them, and figured the problem would be solved then -- after that there would be no further intermingling. But the AKC kept extending the deadline for closing their studbook, and finally decided to keep accepting ABCA-registered border collies forever. And with every passing day where dual registration was tolerated it became more and more difficult to bar it.

 

The last time a serious effort to do so was made was in 2002, when the ABCA formed a committee to consider the options for dealing with dual registration, and public comment from the membership was solicited. Most members who commented favored banning dual registration, but by then many did not, and the overwhelming majority of members did not comment one way or the other. I have always strongly favored banning dual registration, but I was not on the board of directors at the time, and I don't know why the board took the decision it did, which was to ban only conformation champions from registration (which was certainly easier) rather than to ban dual registration altogether. I thought it was the wrong decision then, and I still do. But I said then that I believed that was our last chance -- that if we did not act then, it would never happen. And I do still believe that -- people simply do not want to grapple with the highly depressing and contentious subject again. It's easier for most people to put the subject out of their mind and hope for the best, especially since the breed does not deteriorate all at once but very, very gradually over time, through the cumulative effects of many continual little changes in membership, attitudes, culture and practice. I would love to be proven wrong, but I think it's just too late. We have missed our chance to do what the JRTCA did.

 

As for the USBCHA barring AKC-registered dogs from trials, I don't think that was ever seriously considered, just because our tradition is so strong that Open trials must be open to all, registered or unregistered, border collie or other breed or mixed breed, because the sole purpose is to find the best dog. AKC's philosophy is obviously very different -- you have to be registered with them to participate in their events, and finding the best dog is a consideration that comes way further down the list, if it comes in at all. That is one of the tactical advantages they have over us.

 

I wonder if ABCA did not allow dual registration and you had to choose sides, so to speak, if the schism between "AKC" bred BCs and working BCs would become greater and if a name change would then be implemented/warranted. I also wonder then if the millers that register their dogs through the ABCA would hurryandswitch to AKC (I know I've mentioned it before but my rescue bc was originally bought at a pet store and is from a puppy mill and is ABCA registered)

 

I also can't help but wonder if the schism was deeper if it would help protect the working population. Seems like it would.

 

I think the schism would definitely become deeper, and I think anything that deepens it is very much in the interests of the working breed.

[Sue R]

Thanks, Eileen, for explaining some of these things. Hindsight and all that.

 

I understand about the trials being "open to all". My only thought about barring AKC would be to insist that people make a choice instead of chosing to have their cake and eat it, too.

 

Yes, a complete and permanent division would be a benefit but it is not in AKC's interest. They want to be in the position to suck in any good dogs they can, especially ones that will lend any credibility to the myth that they are preserving working ability. They simply want to be the only game in town. The current situation reminds me of the good guys/bad guys - the good guys play by the rules and have integrity and the bad guys can just do whatever they want.

[DTrain]

This whole situation has been mostly out of my mind. I come from the west, southern Alberta. I have only ever been exposed to working BC's and in some cases of the highest caliber. My dogs are from top working stock and regardless of registration, something I care very little about, they just work. Knowing some fabulous breeders who are completely focused on developing working dogs I was of the feeling that top BC lines were safe. That is until I moved east and became exposed for the first time to AKC people. I have no idea how many times I have been asked if my dogs are registered with AKC and told that my dogs are nothing unless they are registered with AKC. I have told this story before. When I moved east I met up with a group of people who were training herding dogs. Every weekend they had a private event and training session. They had so called top trainers from mostly Michigan and Ohio come each weekend to work with them and they paid them to be there. At first I found it odd that I was the only person with border collies. Most of the dogs in the group where Aussies. My dogs were very much more advanced than any of the other dogs. They are able to work and run trials. I volunteered to help with their dogs and I was a little surprised to find that my offer was rejected. I became aware shortly after this why. These were AKC folks and they were training their dogs for AKC events. I learned for the first time, first hand what that meant and to make a long story short and in my opinion they were training against the herding instincts of there dogs to conform to a rather low set of standards for herding ability. I have since left that group. In fact after only a few sessions I no longer felt welcome. I take this as a good experience however. I have seen first hand how the AKC has contributed to the decline of at least the Aussie as a herding dog. Perhaps I am just a simple country boy who loves to work my dogs and train and I don't do politics. I don't intend to offend anyone but I must say I have a deep appreciation for those BC breeders, trainers and handlers who are dead set on building a better working dog.

[JaderBug]

So, another thought came to my mind... what do the AKC Barbie Collie breeders have to say for themselves?? Do they think that the mutilation of the heritage of 'their breed' is OK??

 

I guess I'm not one that cares much for JRTs, but what was their 'working' heritage that the JRT breeders didn't want to lose to the PRT/AKC?

[Debbie Meier]

I know for a fact that some don't care, all they want to do is breed the next confirmation champion and do what they can to get performance titles to help make their dog look like an all around dog on paper. I know of one that could care in the least bit that the ABCA papers on her dog were revolked, if people call her looking for working border collies she sends them away, telling them that she does not breed working border collies. In reality some are truely breeding a different breed of dog, but they can get fresh blood by outcrossing to the working dogs.

 

You know that's an interesting premise, there have been studies done showing that the show border collie was very different then the work dog genetic wise, I wonder if that could used as grounds for a case to get the dogs defined as a totally different breed, and then put pressure on AKC to close the books since they don't endorse outcrossing to different breeds. In the long run, having the show people breed away could be a favor as long as there is work done to preserve the working dogs.

 

 

Deb

[Debbie Meier]

Better yet, if it could be scientifically established that the show barbie collie is genetically a breed of their own, get a breed club that wants to outcross sue for discrimation, if the books are open for the border collies could it be considered discrimation to not allow the books to open to out cross for another breed that is in dire straights health wise.

 

 

There has to be a way to get the books closed, this line of thought would make it in AKC's best interest.

 

Deb

[jrid]

Just sell puppies/dogs without papers and that will solve the part of the of dual registration problem. A dog from non AKC registered parents can not be added to the AKC registry if it has no papers from a recognized registry unless it has been spayed or neutered.

[jrid]

I would like to add to my post above: Maybe breeders could only sell puppies/dogs with papers to people that they know without a shadow of a doubt will not dual register with the AKC.

[SoloRiver]

I made some inquiries a while back and was told that AKC would not fully register a Border Collie that had ABCA's version of limited registration (it is called "non-breeder" registration). If more breeders took advantage of this option, particularly when selling to pet and sport homes, it would not only address the problem of overbreeding but also make those dogs unavailable to AKC as breeding dogs, even if they were intact.

 

The analyses that I have done, which were very limited, suggest that conformation bred Border Collies are genetically different from working bred Border Collies. We would need more samples of show dogs, defined in some objective manner (i.e., "AKC conformation champions") and a more diverse geographical sample (ideally including working dogs from Australia/New Zealand, and more UK show dogs) to be able to better understand the population structure within the breed.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Melanie, did you ever get the e-mail I sent you about the guy in Australia who is interested in helping you out?

[Debbie Meier]

I wanted to post this yesterday but my server was down where all my pictures are stored.

 

Here is Janet's dog Caret, this pictue was taken last summer at one of our Iowa Cattle Trials:

 

 

 

Deb

[KathyF]

I wanted to post this yesterday but my server was down where all my pictures are stored.

 

Here is Janet's dog Caret, this pictue was taken last summer at one of our Iowa Cattle Trials:

 

Deb

 

 

Deb-

 

The picture doesn't show up for me, yet when I hit reply I see a link for the picture. Hmmm And when I copy and paste the link it says that it does not match any documents.

 

Kathy

[Debbie Meier]

Deb-

 

The picture doesn't show up for me, yet when I hit reply I see a link for the picture. Hmmm And when I copy and paste the link it says that it does not match any documents.

 

Kathy

 

 

That's weird, it even shows up in your reply, here is a direct link to the picture:

http://waynescustomleather.com/images/IMG_1100.JPG

 

Deb

[Eileen Stein]

I guess I'm not one that cares much for JRTs, but what was their 'working' heritage that the JRT breeders didn't want to lose to the PRT/AKC?

 

Working Jack Russell Terriers hunt underground quarry -- they go down the holes of vermin (traditionally fox, but now often groundhogs and even rats), follow the underground "pipes" until they find the animal, and then either engage and kill it or alert their handler (by barking and/or by a collar that sends radio signals) to where the animal is so the handler can dig down and kill it. At least that is my understanding of how it's done. At the specialty I went to they had "go to ground" trials, where a terrier was shown a hole which led to an underground maze of tunnels, one of which led ultimately to a critter (in a cage, so the terrier couldn't actually grab it and shake it). The tunnels had been dug in advance and were covered with dirt and bales of straw. They had little flags like surveyors flags sticking up from them at intervals, so that onlookers could trace the dog's underground progress by the waggling of the flags when the dogs burrowed past them. The dogs need to be very driven, keen and fearless. They also have legitimate conformation requirements, since they have to be small enough to fit in the type of tunnel their quarry would dig. One of the complaints of the working JRT people is that the show JRTs now generally have rib cages too wide to permit the dogs to negotiate tunnels.

[kajarrel]

Boy, oh boy! I think I'd absolutely freak out if my dog went down a groundhog hole, no matter how desirable getting rid of the little critters would be!

 

Kim

[Sue R]

So, another thought came to my mind... what do the AKC Barbie Collie breeders have to say for themselves?? Do they think that the mutilation of the heritage of 'their breed' is OK??

 

They believe that they are breeding towards "perfection" which includes standardization not only of skeletal and muscular characteristics but also of coat, eye set, ear set, color, etc. (and all those so-very-important surface and cosmetic features); don't believe that working instincts are diluted or lost when one is not breeding for them (although how anyone could think you could or should or must breed for these other characteristics, but working ability will take care of itself is beyond me); and some believe that working-bred dogs are inferior physically, even unsound, as they are not bred for heavy bone (versus the more athletic moderate bone), straight legs (versus the more flexible and agile slight cow-hocks that allow better maneuvering and turns), solid shoulders (versus the looser shoulder that allows the crouch and slink), and other charactertistics that have been deemed to be physical perfection and soundness (without actually being shown to be beneficial in any way for real working dogs), etc.

 

Many AKC people believe they are "perfecting and preserving" the breed (as in so many other breeds) and that those who actually breed for working abilities are producing substandard "specimens" of the breed that are riddled with genetic disease, unsoundness, and temperment issues. Nothing could be further from the truth (in the case of responsible breeders - there are so-called "working" breeders who are nothing more than backyard-breeders, puppy millers, or just-plain-irresponsible breeders).

 

They believe that breeding conformation lines, obedience lines, agility lines, and so on are legitimate breeding goals. Breed what wins either in the show ring or the performance venue, and that's responsible breeding in the kennel club mindset. Add in some "working blood" and compete in AKC "herding" as well as other competitions, and thereby prove the "versatility" of the kennel club Barbie Collie. That's what it's all about, right?

 

It is very hard to argue with or convince someone who believes that they are the salvation of the breed, and deride the efforts of folks like those who produced and proved (and still produce and prove) the wonderful, practical, useful Border Collie. They believe they are producing the "real" Border Collie - I think they can't see the forest for the trees. After all, how come so many people ask (about working-bred dogs), "What is your dog crossed with?" as discussed in a recent thread?

[border_collie_crazy]

see as a working person who has a show dog(Toller) I talk to show people all the time. their mindset never fails to astound me. ok, my Toller is very popular in the local show scene, she has taken BOB under every judge she has been under despite my complete lack of handling skills, she has fans for heaven sakes. well, great she is a very pretty dog, she fits the standard extremely well, thats great and I am proud of her. BUT she has no stamina..she is about as active as a basset hound, she also has no drive, like none...not only does she not retreive but she doesnt even bother looking at the obect, her only interest in birds is eating them, and her swimming is more like drowning. the mindset about this is what gets me...non of this bothers any of them in the least, in fact they dont even think it is the least bit suprising. and at the very same time the same people are feeding me lines about how the best conformed dog is automaticly the best worker.

[Sue R]

So, if you are a "working (dog) person", why did you go and get a show-bred dog and actively show her? It's not surprising that she doesn't have the instinct that her purpose-bred forebears had, but isn't it a bit contradictory to extol the breeding of Border Collies (for instance) for working ability, and yet seem to support the show-breeding and showing of another should-be-purpose-bred breed?

[KathyF]

That's weird, it even shows up in your reply, here is a direct link to the picture:

http://waynescustomleather.com/images/IMG_1100.JPG

 

Deb

 

It's really weird, because now tonight it shows up. Go figure.

 

Kathy

[KathyF]

T(although how anyone could think you could or should or must breed for these other characteristics, but working ability will take care of itself is beyond me); and some believe that working-bred dogs are inferior physically, even unsound, as they are not bred for heavy bone (versus the more athletic moderate bone), straight legs (versus the more flexible and agile slight cow-hocks that allow better maneuvering and turns), solid shoulders (versus the looser shoulder that allows the crouch and slink), and other charactertistics that have been deemed to be physical perfection and soundness (without actually being shown to be beneficial in any way for real working dogs), etc.

 

 

They love to call our working bred Border Collies, Coyotes. *shaking my head*

 

Kathy