My last nerve

[Shadows Mom]

Shadow is 11 months old now, and this whole refusal to potty train is about to drive me insane, I'm actualy considering giving her away. Just this morning she ran passed me on the stairs and had pooped on the floor in the 30 seconds it took me to get there.. now she pooped in her crate without ONCE asking to go out, I was less than a foot away from her, she simply stood up and started to poop! She'd been out not 20 minutes before. I'm so tired of cleaning up dog crap that I could just scream. It has me so frustrated that everytime I look at her I burst into tears. She was supposed to be my dream dog, but its more like a poop filled nightmare. She simply refuses to ask to go out. I've tried everything suggested to me on here and nothing is working. I feel like I own the stupidest dog in existence, and I just don't know what to do anymore. Between her inability to learn, stress from school, and my rapidly decline health I'm almost ready to wander away and simply disappear.

 

Any last-ditch effeorts anyone can offer me? Short of dads idea of buy a shotgun Sooo beyond tired of cleaning up dog poop constantly.

[nancy]

What does your vet say? I've never known a dog that would poop where it was going to spend time. Heck, Fergie acts insulted by her poop as soon as she plants it.

[TheStacks]

My dogs do not ask to go out either. However, they are on a schedule so they know when they are getting out. Our schedule is not necessarily set-up by time, but by events. I would adhere to a VERY strict schedule with Shadow.

 

When she goes out I would go with her. On a leash. And not move until she pottied. Going out for business should not be fun. In fact my dogs know when I say "business trip" that they are to go and come right back in the house. I am always in the doorway watching to make sure they have finished and not gotten distracted. Go potty, usually reminds them if need be.

 

 

Are you free-feeding her? It sounds like a lot of poop. My dogs go twice a day. Both times an hour or so after their meals. Perhaps you should set up feeding/potty schedule if you have not done this already.

 

Also, what are you feeding? A low quality kibble, sensitivity to something in the food, etc may be causing the excessive quantity.

 

I would also advise you to discuss this with your vet to rule out medical issues.

[Ninso]

What does your vet say? I've never known a dog that would poop where it was going to spend time. Heck, Fergie acts insulted by her poop as soon as she plants it.

 

^^Brings to mind something I read . . . what is Shadow's background? I've heard that some puppies who have spent their formative weeks in kennels where they were forced to poop where they sleep (e.g., puppy mill-type situations, animal shelters)have a difficult time learning that this is not ok and are thus very difficult to house train.

 

I haven't been following your situation, but I certainly sympathize. I don't know what I would do if it were me! My dog will only go in the house if he is sick or if I forget to take him out. He doesn't stand at the door or bark or anything when he needs to go out, but will usually stare at me relentlessly (also what he does when he wants to play, so its sometimes difficult to tell the difference). If he does go in the house he acts really contrite and most of the time will try to clean it up himself. I wish you the best.

[RaisingRiver]

River doesn't ask to go out either and often has liquid stools, so just goes inside when she has to go (I dont' think she can hold the diarrhea). So instead, I just take her out when I know she is supposed to go. (8:30am & 4-5:30pm). Because she eats on a schedule, she's like clockwork.

 

Yes, she's been to the vet, yes I've tried every food except raw (not an option for me) and so this is my best solution - as it seems she has a sensitive tummy and has chronic nasty fish-like breath that the vet can't cure. Otherwise, River is absolutely my 'perfect' dog.

 

Giving Shadow away will not 'cure' her problem. Just gives it to someone else. Obviously keeping her as an outside dog would 'quickfix' the issue - but for me outside dogs is not something I would ever consider. Instead, try to work with Shadow. You could teach her to ring a string of bells to go out - that might work. http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2...bell_to_go.html

[Shadows Mom]

My vet says she is perfecty healthy, and is simply a slow learner. She is fed 1 1/2 cups of Canidae a day, and is given 1/2 hour to eat it (usually takes her 2 or 3 minutes to swallow tho). The breeder keeps all his dogs in a nice barn, and all are taken out many times a day to potty and play.

 

When she goes out I tell her "potty time" and do not allow her to play. She is trained to "go big potty" and does so when told to. She usualy poos 4 times a day, 2 small in the am and 2 small in the pm. This is the second time shes gone in her crate, the first time we came home to a poop covered dog, it was disgusting!

 

I'll give the vet a call and take her in again, just incase she has any other ideas of what I can do to help this situation.

 

Glad I'm not the only one with a dog that gives subtle "let me out" hints such as staring at me.

[Jedismom]

I'm so sorry you're going through this. I don't know what you've already done so sorry if I'm repeating what you've tried.

 

Have you cleaned all the areas Shadow has eliminated with a product that breaks down and neutralizes the odor so she doesn't keep going back to it?

 

How often do you take Shadow out? Neither one of my dogs ever give me a real clear indication that they need to go out so I don't wait for that. They are out about every 3 hours.

 

What do you do when you catch her eliminating? When I was training my dogs I'd grab them in the middle of it with a stern no..outside...and take them out, without alot of discussion or other types of attention paid. When I was house breaking them I'd take them out every 2 hours. If they eliminated outside on their own they'd get lots of praise, treats, and attention/playtime.

 

Does Shadow have a place he can feel safe outside to eliminate? My dog Jedi won't poop on a walk generally unless he absolutely has to, he likes to be by himself behind a tree in our yard.

 

When we first got Cadi, she would poop in my room. I'm pretty sure it was separation anxiety and we needed to work on that issue before we were successful.

 

Good Luck and don't give up

[MrSnappy]

I don't pretend to be an expert on the topic, but crapping 4 times a day seems like an awful lot. I'd be willing to lay down some cash on the idea that she may not tolerate her brand of food too well. My dogs poop twice a day generally, and sometimes they just go once a day. Of course, mine are on raw. But just because a food is good doesn't mean it's good for a particular dog. Maybe she can't handle grains, or a particular ingredient in the food - either way, 1.5 cups of food is not very much, so why is she pooping so much? I doubt it has anything to do with her learning ability.

 

Additionally, most dogs do not generally poop in their crates unless they really can't help themselves. So it seems to me that she is *not* perfectly healthy and probably there is an issue that is not being addressed.

 

My dogs also do not know how to ask to go out. In fact, once Tweed did ask but I had no idea what he was doing so he peed on my floor and was pretty humiliated about it too. I take mine out on a schedule, else I'd be running up and down 11 flights of stairs a kajillion times a day. So I'd focus less on teaching her how to ask to go out, and more on figuring out why she can't prevent herself from pooping in the house and crate, and how you can get her on a more reasonable pooping schedule. Since what comes out is a product of what goes in, maybe you need to look at what's going in FIRST.

 

RDM

[aBC4me]

I'm so sorry that you are having troubles. I jsut have to add that I see that you have "pooper scooper" on your avitar.

 

And no I really do not think that it's funny. You said that she has only gone twice in her cage, what about the rest of them? What exactly is she doing?

[Root Beer]

River doesn't ask to go out either and often has liquid stools, so just goes inside when she has to go (I dont' think she can hold the diarrhea). So instead, I just take her out when I know she is supposed to go. (8:30am & 4-5:30pm). Because she eats on a schedule, she's like clockwork.

 

Yes, she's been to the vet, yes I've tried every food except raw (not an option for me) and so this is my best solution - as it seems she has a sensitive tummy and has chronic nasty fish-like breath that the vet can't cure. Otherwise, River is absolutely my 'perfect' dog.

 

Have you ever tried digestive enzymes?

 

If you haven't, you might want to give it a shot. I got the ones by Dogzymes and I am very happy with the results with my dog who had chronic liquid stools and was "fine" according to the vet.

[Ninso]

What if you tried switching her food? Even though Canidae is a good food, perhaps she is not digesting it as well as she should and that is causing her to need to go more often than she should. My dogs is on Canidae and poops twice a day, if that. I can't imagine that it would take a dog 11 months to learn to potty outside, particularly if you are scolding for going inside and rewarding for going outside. Aside from getting the vet to check her out again and switching her food, make sure she goes every time you are out. Being out and playing tends to stimulate the bowels and my dog often "forgets" to go if he is playing. It sounds like she is giving you subtle hints, such as staring at you, but don't wait for her to tell you. Take her out every hour if you need to. Don't let her form a habit of going inside. (Also, twice in eleven months is not bad for pooping in her crate. I've only had my dog for five months, he is an adult and I've come home to a poop-covered dog once. He had diarrhea and couldn't hold it. Honestly, it sounds like he's pretty good at holding it in his crate unless he really has to go, so maybe crating more often and anytime she is not under direct supervision is a good idea).

[RuthBelle]

Have you tried using a bell to train her to go out? I hung a bell on the doorknob at both my and my fella's house for Belle to indicate when she needed to go potty. As a tiny puppy we did the puppy schedule of taking her out, i.e., after waking up, eating, before bedtime (in the crate), etc., but each time we made a big production out of hitting the bell and giving her a treat before we took her outside. "Oh good dog, we're going potty, oh boy, here's a snack", while we rang the bell. Every single time. She particularly likes those "Train Me" bacon snacks from Petco, and since we were using so many, I cut them down into even smaller pieces.

 

Somewhere along the line, she finally figured out the connection and started ringing the bell herself. We continued the big production number, and kept giving her the snack before she went out. If she went to the door and forgot the bell, I'd just tell her "Show mama" and she'd give it a nuzzle with her nose. "Oh, good girl, here's a snack"!

 

She went through a short phase were she tried to fake us out and ring the bell every five minutes (we'd let her out and she'd want right back in with out going potty), but at 8 months she now goes to the door and rings the bell whether we have the treats for her or not (when she really needs to go potty). I can't even remember the last potty accident in the house.

 

I used a little bell with a clapper that didn't look like it would fall apart with as many uses it was going to get. I used the nylon dog collars Belle was quickly outgrowing to attach it to the doorknob.

[RaisingRiver]

Have you ever tried digestive enzymes?

 

If you haven't, you might want to give it a shot. I got the ones by Dogzymes and I am very happy with the results with my dog who had chronic liquid stools and was "fine" according to the vet.

 

Yes, I have. Didn't seem to make a difference. They liquid stools come and go and it's been hard to predict. I've used OptiGest. Maybe a different brand would be more useful. I'm pretty willing to try anything at this point.

[Blue Wolf]

River doesn't ask to go out either and often has liquid stools, so just goes inside when she has to go (I dont' think she can hold the diarrhea). So instead, I just take her out when I know she is supposed to go. (8:30am & 4-5:30pm). Because she eats on a schedule, she's like clockwork.

 

Yes, she's been to the vet, yes I've tried every food except raw (not an option for me) and so this is my best solution - as it seems she has a sensitive tummy and has chronic nasty fish-like breath that the vet can't cure. Otherwise, River is absolutely my 'perfect' dog.

 

Giving Shadow away will not 'cure' her problem. Just gives it to someone else. Obviously keeping her as an outside dog would 'quickfix' the issue - but for me outside dogs is not something I would ever consider. Instead, try to work with Shadow. You could teach her to ring a string of bells to go out - that might work. http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2...bell_to_go.html

 

For River, have you tried serving her food with a dose of slippery elm? It's what I use when my dogs have loose stool, and it works wonderfully on upset stomach.

 

Slippery Elm Bark (Ulmus Fulva) is a soothing nutritive demulcent suitable for sensitive or inflamed mucous membrane linings in the digestive system. Slippery Elm may be used for treating diarrhea or colon disorders.

[Shetlander]

I don't pretend to be an expert on the topic, but crapping 4 times a day seems like an awful lot. I'd be willing to lay down some cash on the idea that she may not tolerate her brand of food too well. My dogs poop twice a day generally, and sometimes they just go once a day.

 

Sadly, with two dogs diagnosed with IBD in the last couple of years, I am an expert on dog poop. 4 x a day for a dog who is not free fed plus pooping in its crate does seem to indicate that at the least her food is not agreeing with her. I would look at trying a diet change and see if that helps.

 

Not all dogs ask to go out. I've had a few that never picked up that skill but were still great in the house. I think RDM makes an excellent point that rather than trying to teach Shadow to signal she needs to go outside to instead implement a schedule that will give her lots of opportunities to eliminate.

 

My Lhasa was terrible about learning to hold his urine. I forget how long I had to keep him either tethered to me or in a crate when I could not actively keep an eye on him. It was probably well past the 12 month mark. Otherwise, he'd slip off for a quick pee before I could stop him. In his case, it was not medical as far as the vet could acertain but it did take a long time to get him to ask to go out and make some effort to hold it until I responded. I still take my dogs out fairly frequently when I'm home but it's easy for me since I just need to step out the back door.

 

I've never met Shadow but I really don't think she is stupid. I'd bet there is something physical going on that may possibly be compounded by her becoming worried about when and where to poop because it has become such an issue.

[RaisingRiver]

River did well on Canidae for the first 2 months then had chronic liquid. Merrick was a bit better and now she's on EVO beef and that seems the best case scenario so far.

[nancy]

Like RDM, we don't have Fergie tell us when she wants to go out. She'd want to every 15 minutes. We created a schedule from the day we got her, when she was 10 weeks old.

 

I walk her before breakfast. At first, it was in the yard, now it's a mile around the pond. One of us walks her after breakfast - always at least a mile. We take her out again after lunch. It's been a short walk, a run, and now another pond walk. Another walk in the neighborhood after dinner. And a quick trip down the front stairs before bed.

 

The length of the walks has always been for us - not her. We got a border collie to keep us as active as can be.

 

The only time she has had any kind of accident - starting with day 1 - she has been really sick.

 

Fergie eats PetsMart Authority Lamb & Rice - up to 2 cups a day (she's 50+ lbs) and deposits two small poops a day.

[SoloRiver]

Give up on waiting for her to ask to go out. She is not "refusing" to do anything, she just doesn't know. She's a dog. She doesn't speak human language. The fact that some dogs do ask to go out is remarkable, not normal. I have one that does (he also alerts me to all sorts of other stuff that seems amiss, like something burning in the oven) and two that don't. One of the ones that doesn't has such subtle signals that they are easy to miss -- they are there, but they aren't directed at me. I would be willing to bet that Shadow does also, but if I were you I would give up on trying to learn them and just put her on a VERY regular outing schedule, as though she were a puppy.

[Anda]

Sorry for the trouble you're going through with Shadow. It does sound like the food she's on is not agreeing with her. I remember how happy you were to find a distributor of Canidae. If she did better on the food she was on previously, it's worth switching back, or trying something else.

 

I find it interesting that a lot of dogs do not ask to go out when needed, even as adults. Mine lets us know when he needs to go out, if it is in between his scheduled walks. I can even ask him if he wants to go pee/poo and depending on the degree of alterness in his response I can tell if he can still hold it for a while or not He even wakes us up at night if he has an upset stomach, by sitting straight up next to our bed and whining until we wake up and take him outside. If needed, a few times during the same night (grrr...) The only accidents he's had in the house as an adult were when he had bad, bad diahrea and he was alone at home, with us still at work late in the afternoon. And they were always close to the balcony door, which was the place we first potty-trained him as a puppy - it was winter and it was easier to let him go on the patio on some cardboard than go downstairs in the snow.

[RaisingRiver]

Like RDM, we don't have Fergie tell us when she wants to go out. She'd want to every 15 minutes.

 

This is exactly why River doesn't tell me to go out. I tried to train her with bells as a puppy, but she wanted to go out every couple of minutes - just so I would play fetch with her, not to potty. So that ended that. BUT it might work for your dog, so you can certainly try. However, I would start a potty schedule and stick to it in the meantime.

 

When I can't be home at those times, I crate River (the only reason she is crated) and she can hold it 99% of the time - or she comes with me. When we travel, she tends to get more liquid and will go in a crate in the car while we are driving So, it works better if she's just laying at my feet in the car.

[Bo Peep]

Most of my dogs never asked to go out. They never messed in the house either. They just waited until I went out and did their business then. Bailey only poops 2X a day. Usher poops 3X a day. His nick-name is "Sir poops a lot". An accident in the crate usually means something is wrong. Even with puppies. I would check with the vet and see if the vet recommends changing the food.

[afrancis]

Shadow's Mom,

Don't despair! From everything you have read on the Boards, you already know that puppyhood can be HELLISH! When we first got Skye, it was almost immediately after we lost our first dog and I had little emotional energy to deal with puppy challenges, such as potty training. Now I know I was not fully ready to commit to another dog (but I believe destiny stepped in and that's why she's with us). That being said, when Skye would pee on the living room carpet, I realized that I had to sign on pretty fast or I'd have a disaster on my hands. Anyway, that was just an aside. I understand that you have other concerns (i.e. school and health issues) which make this challenge even more difficult.

I agree with the others. Four poops a day seems twice too much, even for a puppy. We have begun to give Skye the fish versions of Fromme, a natural and very high quality dry food (also available in cans, but at $3.99 each, quite expensive!). For the first time her poops have been ultra firm and consistent. I actually also wonder if a fish-based food is generally easier on sensitive stomachs. Maybe you could give it or something like it a try.

And I also agree that it is very unusual for Shadow to be pooping in her crate. Those sacred spaces are usually only pooped on if it's an emergency. If Skye started to poop inside (the crate poop only happened once and it was a diarrhea episode), I would rush in like a whirling dirvish and scoop her up to take her outside. She got the message pretty fast.

I know that this whole thing is making you question whether you should keep her at all. I had moments like that with Skye. But I'm sure Shadow is smarter than you think (Skye only started coming into her own at about 1 1/2 years) and that she will become the dog of your dreams.

This won't last forever! Barring any medical issues, consistency and a firm schedule combined with the right diet should be the answer.

Ailsa

[Mojo]

To the OP: Godiva is a little dog (i.e., shorter GI tract), and has 3-4 BMs per day, on average...but she also gets fed 4-6 times a day due to health reasons. In contrast, Mojo gets fed 3-4 times a day, and also gets training treats throughout the day, but on average, only has 1 BM per day. Plus, if we do not happen to leave our property that day, he would actually rather hold it in and not have a BM at all (he much prefers to poo in new and unconquered territory than in our own yard), and has been known to avoid pooping for up to three days if I have been stuck working a lot and have been unable to take him to the park, at which point he will grudgingly use our yard. So, if Shadow is only getting one meal a day and is still pooping that frequently, I would agree with what has been said and suggest further inquiry into her diet/stools...perhaps you said it before, but what is the consistency of her stools? Has she had a recent fecal exam? What about training treats (amount, frequency)? What is her water source (tap, filtered, frequent access to public dog park water or lakes/streams)? These issues could be contributing to the problem, as well.

 

Anyway, in reply to Anda's and Raising River's posts, Mojo seems to be a cross of River and Ouzo! Mojo never asks to go out as a rule, either to play or to use the bathroom, but if you ask HIM if he wants to go out, he immediately starts to bounce up and down with excitement, regardless if we have just come in from being out, so, I do take him out on a regular schedule to do his business rather than ask him or have him tell me.....however, if Mojo has diarrhea or has to vomit, he WILL run to the front door and wait. If this has not already gotten my attention, he will then come and sit in front of me and look at me pointedly. If that still doesn't work, he will then whine and do a little dance in front of me and run back and forth to the door, which inevitably makes me get up and take him out. Of the one or two times his need to go outside urgently has occurred while I am sleeping, he will leap on and off the foot of the bed until I wake up (we sleep with the bedroom door closed). In the 1+ years I have had him, he has never once made a mess in the house--neither poop nor pee nor vomit. As I have discovered through my own stupidity when I had not yet learned to understand his signals, the poor dog would rather start to throw up in his mouth than deposit his mess on the floor....it is really incredible. Whoever had him before certainly didn't bother to socialize him, but they sure did a bang-up job of housebreaking him....we consider ourselves extremely lucky.

 

OTOH, Godiva (almost 15-year-old Bichon princess) has no patience for anything, much less concern for what I might otherwise be doing other than attending to her (since, clearly, the world revolves around her), so if her need to pee or poo happens to fall in between a scheduled outing, she simply demands to go out. I'm no longer quite sure if I trained her to do it or if she trained me, but she will bark at me and then run to the front door to be let out, and she started doing this from the time she was about five or six months old on. Unlike Mojo, though, she will vomit any old place in the house that pleases her, and she generally tries her best to throw up on nice rugs (yay!) rather than the easily cleanable bare floor.

[notailabigail]

I have to agree with the ideas of looking into a new food for Shadow and also keeping her on a strict and frequent potty schedule. Ryan and Abby never end up having to ask to go out except when they've been sick in the middle of the night. Both of them sit by my bed and moan the few times that has happened. They go out often enough normally, though, that it isn't an issue.

 

As far as soft poops go - Ryan had chronically soft stool on the four brands of kibble I tried him on. I switched him to raw and it hasn't been a problem since.

 

Oh, and they only go once or twice a day and are fed once a day.

[Shadows Mom]

The 4 poos are basically 2 normal ones, with a break in the middle to move to a new spot. She can't just poop in one spot she goes 1/2 on one side of the yard, then fnishes at the other side of the yard.

 

Canidae is the only food I've found that doesn't give her loose stool

 

Could rawhide bones be causing her some troubles? We just got new ones 2 days ago, cheap ones from the department store (shes used to good quality ones from the pet store, but they were sold out).

 

Oh, I usually take her out every 2 hours when I'm home, otherwise she stays in her crate, this time the in-crate poo was formed, last time it was loose.

 

Her vets appointment is next week, I'm to bring in a urine and stool sample, and they'll be doing a blood panel... if there is something wrong, I'll know!

 

 

OMG! Can sentinel cause bowel probems? She did just get her dose yesterday...