curious about a breeder in VA

[Pat W.]

Someone I chat with occaisionally is looking at getting a future pup from a breeder using the kennel name Fieldstone out of VA anyone familiar w/them? If you prefer feel free to email or pm me

[Michelle K]

I'm PMing you, since I'm not sure on using names.

[juliepoudrier]

Fieldstone is David and Christine Henry. They have some very nice dogs and trial successfully at the very highest levels, routinely qualifying for and placing well in trials like the finals, the Bluegrass, Edgeworth, and so on. Christine occasionally posts on these boards under the name "Valhalla." You would probably recognize her as one of the wonderful photographers who has posted here. You can find their website here.

 

J.

[PSmitty]

I'm too slow...Julie beat me to it.

 

I wouldn't hesitate to get a Fieldstone dog, myself.

[1sheepdoggal]

Ditto, what they said. very nice dogs, successful trialists, breeding for the right reasons, and proving their dogs on the feild.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Great people who believe and breed for what the Border Collie is all about.

 

I would not hesitate to get a dog from them.

 

 

Diane

[Eileen Stein]

Ditto.

[3dogslater]

Question for those who recommend this breeder: from their website, they bred Lass (born May 22/06) to McCloud before they sold her.

 

That litter was born in 2007 so at the very most, she was 14 months old when she was bred if the litter whelped in Sept/07 since they talk about the pups being on stock at four months old. She is now expecting a second litter due this March when she is only 22 months old.

 

Unless they have her date of birth wrong, she will have had two litters back to back before she is two years old. I thought that a good working border collie breeder didn't breed until the dogs were proven on stock. How would you know that Lass was proven on stock at 14 months of age?

 

This seems to contradict what was written in the sticky we're asked to read when we first joined. Isn't this a red flag that would warn me away from them as breeder? Other than that, it looks like they have some really nice working dogs and have the other things I would look for in a breeder (working dogs, hips and eyes tested, spay/neuter contract, rehoming policy, non-aka involvement).

[Lizmo]

I agree with everyone else. Very nice people from the few times I've emailed/called them. Taking the time to talk to a newbie like me about their dogs and breeding practices - I'm very grateful. I'm actually going to be getting a pup from them out of an upcoming litter.

[Valhalla]

Question for those who recommend this breeder: from their website, they bred Lass (born May 22/06) to McCloud before they sold her.

 

That litter was born in 2007 so at the very most, she was 14 months old when she was bred if the litter whelped in Sept/07 since they talk about the pups being on stock at four months old. She is now expecting a second litter due this March when she is only 22 months old.

 

Unless they have her date of birth wrong, she will have had two litters back to back before she is two years old. I thought that a good working border collie breeder didn't breed until the dogs were proven on stock. How would you know that Lass was proven on stock at 14 months of age?

 

This seems to contradict what was written in the sticky we're asked to read when we first joined. Isn't this a red flag that would warn me away from them as breeder? Other than that, it looks like they have some really nice working dogs and have the other things I would look for in a breeder (working dogs, hips and eyes tested, spay/neuter contract, rehoming policy, non-aka involvement).

 

 

We saw Lass and were very impressed with her at 6 - 7 months old when we had her in for basic obedience training and tried her on stock. We really liked what we saw but the owner would not sell her. We were able to purchase her at about 10 months old and started working her right away. She had all the characteristics we were looking for in a young dog... courage, confidence and athletic ability. We bred her to McCloud and she raised a very nice litter of puppies. We bred her not to sell puppies, but to have other nice young dogs to train for ourselves and for these reasons we kept three pups out of the litter. They have been an outgoing group of puppies with the natural courage, confidence and interest in stock like their parents from the time they were 4 months old. We continuously follow the progress of all the pups in the litter and everyone is very pleased with their potential.

 

 

We had no intention of selling Lass, but on July 4, 2007, I fractured my knee in a freak sheep accident and was on crutches for six weeks (see BC Boards discussion - http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...p;#entry160609). Therefore, we were forced to downsize our kennel due to the fact that I was not not able to train dogs (and David, having a full time job, did not have time to train dogs himself). The people that bought Lass from us knew about the success of the first breeding, so they made the decision to breed her again and came to us since the first litter, so far, seems to be a great cross.

[Chesney's Girl]

I'm actually going to be getting a pup from them out of an upcoming litter.

 

Lucky!

[Eileen Stein]

Unless they have her date of birth wrong, she will have had two litters back to back before she is two years old. I thought that a good working border collie breeder didn't breed until the dogs were proven on stock. How would you know that Lass was proven on stock at 14 months of age?

 

This seems to contradict what was written in the sticky we're asked to read when we first joined. Isn't this a red flag that would warn me away from them as breeder?

 

I went back and looked at the sticky, and I don't see anything specific in it that would identify this as a red flag. I agree, however, that if the only thing I knew about a breeder was that they had bred a bitch twice before she was two years old, I would regard that as a red flag. But a red flag is just a warning, signaling you to look more carefully before you proceed. If, upon looking more carefully, I found that the second breeding was not done by the breeders in question but by a subsequent owner of the bitch, that the breeders in question are experienced in training and evaluating stockdogs and had made the decision to breed the bitch based on the working ability they discerned during her training (don't know how far along she was at 14 months of age, but dogs can be far enough along for very experienced trainers to make judgments about their breedworthiness by then -- some dogs are even running in Open at that age), and I learned from a variety of reputable sources that the breeders are well-known for breeding only for working ability, producing excellent pups, not breeding excessively, caring well for their pups and selling them responsibly, then I would certainly not let that single red flag deter me from getting a pup from them.

 

As the Tips on Getting a Border Collie state, "Even good breeders can have one or more minor Red Flags, but they should have few, and should have offsetting positive qualities." That is certainly the case here.

[cook4ua]

I have a Fieldstone bc and I have had many conversions with Daivd Henry, both before and after the purchase of my Emlee. Sad to say that Emlee suffers from SEIZURES. She was born 1/12/03. When I was told about the litter, I was told that this was a repeat breeding between, Dingo and Hope. I do not remember being told anywhere that David did not own the dogs. What a surprise it was when I got my Certificate of Registration and saw that he did not owner either dog. He led me to believe he did or should I say at least Hope. But that is here nor there. The FACT is he was told that Emlee, after lots of testing, had low thyroid, a heredity condition. That both the dog and bitch should be checked and not bred again. As of this date, I have no idea if they ever were. I also have no idea if the other owners were told about Emlee's condition and that they could be inline for the same. Must say that David did give me the names of the other owners from the litter, but it was and is not up to me to call and inform them of this, its the breeders duty. David let himself known as the 'breeder' so he is the breeder.

 

On another note. My friend also got a pup from this litter. I beautiful red/wh little girl. Well, after months of not wanting to be crate trained and house trained she looked for a home for Fergi. A home was found for her in Georgia and months later that new owner emailed to say that Fergi had IB and that she had surgery, she was split from on end to the other. She was healing fine and that she would be on a special diet the rest of her life.

 

That is 2 pups and 2 problems. Right now we are back to square one with Emlee. After 2 1/2 years of being seizure free on her thyroid medicine she is back to seizuring. It is not uncommon for her to have custers. She paces constantly and the look in her eyes is enough to make me want to cry. She is a loving and great bc and I wouldn't trade her for anything. All I asked of David was to have the sire and dam tested and the litter owner notified and as far as i know non of this has happen.

 

I WOULD NOT BUY ANOTHER FIELDSTONE PUP. nor HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH MR. HENRY. I think I know what I am talking about. Maybe you need to go into the bcsa web site and look up Janet Lewis. She wrote a great piece that appeared in the Nov/Dec 2004 Borderlines magizine called Epilepsy:The Breeder's Dirty Little Secret.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good luck and God Bless.

[Eileen Stein]

I don't know the background about the pups you are talking about here, but this is what I understand from your post:

 

1. You bought a pup, Emlee, from David Henry in 2003. You do not recall being told that he did not own the dam, and therefore was not the breeder.

 

2. Emlee at some point began having seizures. Emlee also was diagnosed as having low thyroid. You told David Henry about this.

 

3. You know of another pup from this litter, who was bought by someone you know, passed on to someone else, and was later diagnosed with IB (irritable bowel syndrome?).

 

4. You do not know whether the sire or dam of these pups, neither of whom is owned by David Henry, has ever been bred since, or whether David has any control whatsoever over whether they are bred or not.

 

Is that a fair statement of what you said?

 

These do not seem to me to be valid reasons to condemn a breeder (even if David were the breeder, which evidently he was not). The best breeder in the world cannot guarantee the lifetime health of every pup he produces, and it's a misconception to think that he can. A misconception which is unfortunately fostered by some breed clubs.

 

Seizures may or may not be hereditary, and there is no genetic test for hereditary seizures. Low thyroid also maybe be hereditary or may not be. And I don't think anyone knows what causes irritable bowel syndrome, if that is what you mean by IB (and maybe it's not, since I never heard of surgery being performed for it). It's a diagnosis of exclusion based on symptoms -- there is no physical abnormality to be seen on examination, and certainly no DNA test. I don't know if IBS is even suspected of being heritable.

 

You say, "That is 2 pups and 2 problems," but that is totally misleading; the meaningful statistic would be 2 problems out of X pups, with X being the number of pups David has bred. Except that David didn't breed these pups, so even that statistic would be meaningless as regards David's quality as a breeder.

 

You are entitled to your opinion -- although an anonymous opinion ought to count for very little, IMO -- but I hope that no one will accept the facts you state here as evidence that David Henry is not a good breeder.

[Wendy V]

C4U:

 

Not to respond to your breeder rant, but something you said did spark a concern. You mentioned that your dog was now pacing non-stop. Have you had her thyroid levels checked recently? I have a epi-dog that was on thyroid supplements for a while, but I stopped them after the dog began to show paing and agitation due to OVER-supplementation. In fact, the over-supplementation caused a seizure because the dog was metabolizing the phenobarb too rapidly. I don't know if this applies to your situation, but it might be worth exploring.

[3dogslater]

Thanks for the reply!

 

She had all the characteristics we were looking for in a young dog... courage, confidence and athletic ability.

Ok, I can understand seeing her potential as a trial dog, especially with your experience.

 

We bred her to McCloud and she raised a very nice litter of puppies.

I guess what I don't understand is why you would breed a dog before she was mature? IMO, fourteen months is still really young and while her value as a sheepdog was apparent, why not wait until she was two before breeding?

 

We had no intention of selling Lass, but on July 4, 2007, I fractured my knee in a freak sheep accident and was on crutches for six weeks

Owwwww I tore my medial CL in an agility accident and it was a year before it was mostly back to normal. At least I was able to walk, I can't imagine being off my feet for six weeks. I know things are different than what I am used to with working dogs, where dogs are trained and bought and sold, or kept on for the purpose of being sold.

 

The people that bought Lass from us knew about the success of the first breeding, so they made the decision to breed her again and came to us since the first litter, so far, seems to be a great cross.

 

If, upon looking more carefully, I found that the second breeding was not done by the breeders in question but by a subsequent owner of the bitch

Except that it was their stud dog that was used each time. Both parties were aware of the dog's age, as well as the fact that it was a back to back breeding. IMO, the owners of the stud have just as much responsibility as the owner of the bitch to ensure that it is an appropriate breeding.

 

I would certainly not let that single red flag deter me from getting a pup from them.

Which is why I was asking

[Denise Wall]

The Fieldstone Kennel breeds border collies to the standard that made this breed what it is, the working standard. They have the experience and knowledge to make good breeding decisions, even if they might not fit your personal standards. I would not hesitate to recommend them.

[Valhalla]

Cook4ua,

 

Eileen states everything in her reply that I wondered about in your post, but in addition to that, here are the facts:

 

1.) At the 2002 Finals in TN, you approached David and told him that you really liked his Holly and wanted a dog like her. Holly is spayed and therefore could not be bred, so David told you about a litter of pups that were being sired by a littermate to Holly named Dingo.

 

2.) David did own Dingo as a puppy, but sold him before he was 3 months old to a farmer nearby.

 

3.) David has never owned Hope, nor did he ever claim to own Hope.

 

4.) The man that owns Hope bred her to Dingo. This was a repeat breeding as the pups from the first litter were very good dogs and, to this date, David has not been made aware of any health problems in that first litter.

 

5.) David did not breed your pup, nor did he represent himself as the breeder of this litter.

 

6.) During the time Hope was pregnant, Hope's owner was shot, at point blank range, with a high powered rifle.

 

7.) Since Hope’s owner was in the hospital for a long time and incapacitated due to the gunshot wound, David whelped out the litter for him and helped the man's wife sell the puppies.

 

8.) After you made David aware of the problems with the two puppies, he spoke with the owners of both Hope and Dingo to let them know about these health issues from that cross and he expressed your concerns to both owners. It was not his place to test their dogs for certain health issues as he is not the owner of the dogs.

 

As you stated in your e-mail, David gave you the names and phone numbers of the other people that purchased pups from the litter. This was something he did not have to do, but was happy to help you as he thought it might be beneficial in discovering potential causes of these health issues.

 

David dealt with this matter in the most honest, professional way possible.

[1sheepdoggal]

What is the friend looking to purchase the pup for? Hey, I have an idea. Why not have the person who is looking to purchase a pup, just call the breeder themselves? This picking apart of this person is getting ridiculas. This is a person/persons, who obviously care about the breed, know how to evaluate and train the dogs, are competitive in open trials, have more than proven the dogs they run and breed, and really have no bussiness being in question of those that are not qualified to judge, and more than likely havent an iota of the experience these folks have with working Border Collies. Its just plain nit picking. If the person is interested, let them pick up the phone, or go to the breeders farm, and decide for themselves. Personally, Id never take hear say on a decision as important as picking out my future working dog, I dont know why anyone else would either.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

>>David dealt with this matter in the most honest, professional way possible. <

 

I've meet David and Christine and liked them!! I wanted to sneak her Nursery dog home with me but ....;-(

 

I even had email exchanges on a possible sale but after going over what I was looking for, David said the dog was not a fit. He could have sold me a dog and made some feeble excuse blaming me why the dog wouldn't work out for me, but we talked about it and figured it was not a good fit. He lost a sale but gained a a whole lot more.

 

I know if I was looking for a dog over back east, I would be ringing them up. I know what their dogs stand for. I know what David and Christine stand for and you couldn't get much better.

 

Diane

[3dogslater]

Why not have the person who is looking to purchase a pup, just call the breeder themselves?

Some breeders don't tell the whole truth. Some have flashy websites that say all the right things but don't have the reputation to back them up. Not suggesting that this is in any way true of this breeder but it does happen. Recommendations from other respected members of the board would go a long way to reassure me of a breeder's ethics and reputation.

 

My questions were not meant to suggest that Fieldstone/Valhalla did not know their dogs, or were't skilled trainers, or weren't competitive in real herding trials. I know I don't have their experience with working border collies and probably never will. I missed the line that Valhalla/Fieldstone was a member of this board until she replied to my post.

 

I asked if a dog could really be evaluated as a dog good enough to be worth breeding at 14 months and Eileen explained that for an experienced person you could identify a really talented dog at that age. I didn't know that. Most of the people I've talked to about working border collies tend to train their dogs longer before making those decisions. Maybe they're less experienced, or the dogs weren't as good. Maybe they wait to be absolutely sure that the dog reaches their potential before breeding, or the dogs are trailing at the highest level.

 

Several members of the board who's opinions I respect said they would recommend this breeder. I asked them why breeding a dog on back to back heats under the age of two wasn't an issue because I realize I don't know all that much about breeding dogs. My personal standards are changing as I learn more and the only way to learn is to ask questions of those who are more knowledgeable.

 

When I realized that the breeder was a member of the board I asked her directly, recognizing that she knows a whole lot more about breeding border collies than I do.

 

Maybe this has burned a bridge and I'll never be able to get a puppy from Fieldstone, or other breeders who have read this thread. Regardless, I have learned something from this thread and that will only help me when I am ready to choose my next dog.

[Caroline Reichard]

While I mostly hate "me, too!" posts, here I go:

 

My family has two dogs from David and Christine Henry: one is my all-around bitch on the farm, the dog that I go to any time I need to get something done that calls for good judgment, even though she is just-turned 3. The other was Christine's old trial dog, and is now my 9 year old's dog. He can (and does) do anything she can do and has been a perfect dog for her: Mirk can move ewes w/ lambs for Andrea and wear dress up clothes (though thankfully this has never been done simultaneously). Both the Henrys have been extremely helpful, up-front, trustworthy people. Their dogs have been outstanding. I'd recommend them w/out hesitation.

[Pipedream Farm]

I, too, would have no hesitation in recommending Fieldstone Kennel to a potential puppy buyer. In other words, what Eileen, Denise, Diane, and Caroline have said.

 

Mark

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

My Breeders Ten Commandments does not include, "Thou shalt never, ever produce an unsound puppy, or a puppy's daughter, or a puppy's son, or the sons and daughters thereof." What is key to me is how the breeder deals with issues that come up. And they will, for a key breeder. Responsibly breeding a stud dog which you want to use to continue a major line, actually includes breeding to a range of bitches - not a vast number before the dog's breeding worth is proven, but sufficient to see the bad as well as the good pop up.

 

Most of the people I've talked to about working border collies tend to train their dogs longer before making those decisions.

 

Pretty much, there's only a handful of people in this country at the level David Henry is in terms of handling, competing, and most importantly breeding, selecting and training dogs which will affect not just his line, but the North American breed as a whole. It is not my personal choice to get a pup from a young bitch if possible, but sometimes for whatever reason that decision will be made by such breeders, and I respect and trust that, from breeders at this level.

 

Remember that such breeders have a lot more than money at stake. They are not making huge amounts of money, which will in any way make up for the bad reputation they'd get if they started turning out bad stock, and didn't stand behind their breeding decisions.

 

When shopping for a breeder (note, a breeder, not a pup), deal it within your own comfort level. If getting a pup from a young mom bothers you, don't criticize, let your feet do the talking. If it's someone else, you can only advise the same before the sale, and afterwards what can you do? Not your dog!

[juliepoudrier]

3DogsLater,

I think your questions were genuine and were seen as such. I can speak to the waiting vs. not waiting, and I think it's correct to say that people with long years of experience can make judgments about the suitability of a working dog much more quickly than the rest of us. I have no problem saying that, and I've said it in the past. If Tommy Wilson or Alasdair MacRae or Jack Knox, for example, judged a dog breeding material at 8 months of age, I'd not question that. Their years of exprerience as sheep- and dogmen give them that "right." I, on the other hand, don't have years of knowledge to back my decisions up and therefore I wait a bit longer for my dog to prove itself on the trial field. For me, I would more willingly accept the determination of breedability at a young age from someone well experienced, whereas I would not accept that same decision coming from a novice handler with limited experience. Since there are a *great many* more novice handlers out there who seem to think they know enough to also be breeders, it's easier to say that a dog should be proven on the trial field before breeding than to insert a bunch of caveats about experience and knowledge. That's my take on it anyway.

 

As for back-to-back breedings, there was a discussion in another thread about that. There could be any number of reasons, and again I think it goes back to the experience of the people involved. If the bitch is really good, it's reasonable to expect that the breeder might want to get all breeding out of the way so the bitch is free to work afterward (breeding and whelping take a bitch out of work for a while). I'm not saying this is the reasoning everyone uses, and again, you must "consider the source" so to speak, but it was a reasonable explanation put forth by someone else on another thread, so I'm repeating it here.

 

Anyway, you shouldn't feel a need to defend yourself--you asked legitimate questions based on what we routinely preach here on these boards.

 

J.