Wht factor dogs less healthy than mostly non wht factor?

[1sheepdoggal]

I am going to be picking a pup out of a planned litter some time around July. The dam has a lot of white, and is what would be considered white factored. The sire is almost all black, with very little white at all, and only the slightest bit of white on his feet, chest, muzzel and very little on the tip of the tail. I was talking to a friend the other day, and she cited that white factored or mostly white dogs generally arent as healthy as a darker or non white factored dog. Just wondering what your views on the subject are, as Ive seen numerous white or mostly white working collies that seem to be the picture of health. Most that Ive observed, ( whiter ones) have been bred leaning more towards cattle dog breeding. I know these pups are being bred to be workers, so Im not concerned about wether they will have ability or not, but am wondering if in picking one should I allow too much white to be a factor because of health concerns in my choosing? I kinda like a dog thats a little off the norm of the traditionally marked dog, so with out any input, Id probably go for the more chrome/ flashy looking dog.

[stockdogranch]

I've not heard that. The only thing I am aware of is the white head/white ears possibility of deafness. This is my bitch, Riddle:

 

 

She is definitely white factored. She will be 7 in late April, and has always been very healthy.

 

This is Rudy, the sire of Riddle's pups, also white-factored (and very curly-coated):

 

 

This is one of their daughters, Alli (AKA Flash):

 

 

Alli will be 2 in late April. She is also very healthy.

 

If you are looking at dogs with what I have been told is a definition of white factored--white running the full inside of the back legs, it seems to me that I encounter far more white factored dogs than not. And they all seem healthy. Did your friend tell you where she got her information?

 

A

[juliepoudrier]

I agree with Anna. I think it's a myth.

 

J.

[Shoofly]

That's Spottie in my avatar over there and this is her son Zac.

 

Spottie is one of the healthiest dogs i've ever known. She's still running and winning Open trials at 10 years old. Zac is superman.

 

That said, I prefer a dog with at least a good bit of black just as a matter or personal taste. I wouldn't especially want one with more white than those. And a non-white factored dog does give you more breeding options - you don't have to stop and rule out white factored dogs as potential mates.

[Lenajo]

I don't think white factored was ever listed as a problem.

 

*excessive* white, all white, or dogs of diluted colors are states to be more potentially sensitive to drugs, as well more prone to auto immune disorders. This was per Dodds DVM at a conference I went to - but I've also seen it repeated in other sources.

 

Temple Grandin also makes some observations on the white in her books at well.

[Shoofly]

Dogs with more white tend to have pink pads, and those do seem less tough than black pads.

[juliepoudrier]

Dogs with more white tend to have pink pads, and those do seem less tough than black pads.

You forced me to go look at my dogs' feet because I was pretty sure they didn't have pink pads, and they don't (Twist and Pip, that is). I wonder if the ticking gene has anything to do with them having black pads instead of pink?

 

J.

[stockdogranch]

OK, so I had to look, too. Riddle and Tikkle have some pink, some black, and some toe pads are both! I'd say they are each about 50-50. Interestingly, Alli, the white dog, has black pads except for one part of one toe, which is pink. Go figure! I've never noticed any problems with their pink pads, though.

A

[1sheepdoggal]

My first BC was as close to the traditional Blk/wht dog as you could get, and he had white feet and pink pads. He was constantly tearing open his pads with running and sliding on dirt. He'd even tear open the little pads on the front legs that were higher up till they bled. All my others except Stella who's predominatly black and has all black pads, have either a mix of blk/pink pads or straight black.

 

Robin, I love your Zac. What a handsome fella! My Lex has a pretty curly coat too, on her tail and back. I think its purty.

 

Seeing as the majority of my dogs are white factored, ( being that they have white running all the way up the back insides of their legs, and 2 of them have the white extended all the way up over their hips, and they appear to be healthy, I wondered. No, my friend didnt tell me where she got her info, she was just making a comment during a conversation, but I'll ask. Could have been a personal observation rather than a statement that had any real validity to it.

[Eileen Stein]

I was talking to a friend the other day, and she cited that white factored or mostly white dogs generally arent as healthy as a darker or non white factored dog.

 

I know of no credible evidence that this is so, and I know of a lot of examples to the contrary.

 

Temple Grandin's comments about white in her books are worthless IMO, because in her discussion she seems to make no distinction between white coloration and albinism -- seems to use the two terms interchangeably as if she doesn't realize they're different. I wouldn't be surprised if your friend was basing her statement on Grandin's book. Was she speaking of border collies, or dogs in general?

 

I also would like to see the data before accepting Dr. Dodds's opinion.

[1sheepdoggal]

I hadnt heard or read anything to the contrary either Eileen, but then, Id be the first to admit, that just cause I hadnt heard, doesnt mean much. Too,...Im not one to crack open a book unless its a good western, or strictly about sheepdog training. I havent heard of anyone called Temple Grandin, or Dodd's but I do know my friend is pretty well read, so perhaps its so. We were talking strictly about Border Collies at the time of the conversation though. Just thought it was a subject Id like to hear other POV on, as it had been the first time Id ever heard anything of the sort. So far, Im glad to be hearing that its not of much consequense, as when picking a pup, I wouldnt like to have to limit myself based on color. It could cut out some really good possibilities.

[juliepoudrier]

Eileen,

I had the same feeling as you when reading Temple Grandin's comments on white animals. There were several other instances of blanket statements like that in her book that just left me shaking my head. The sad thing is that it kind of colored for me the rest of the (very good) information she presented.

 

Darci,

My feeling is that if the breeding is a good one, just pick the pup that appeals to you most. If it happens to be white factored and have a lot of white on it, I don't think you're automatically setting yourself up for health problems.

 

Anna,

In my cursory inspection (1 paw on Pip, the Great White Whale) last night, I assumed that the one paw was indicative of all paws, which is not the case. Pip actually has both black and pink on his pads, with black predominating. Where there is pink, it shares space with black on a particular pad. Twist is all black, as is Phoebe. Lark, on the other hand, has pink pads. She's a tri with four white stockings. That, of course, led me to check Willow, who is also tri with four white socks, and all of her pads are black. I guess there's no predicting. (The red dogs have red pads, a darker shade than the pink of the pink pads.) There, that's my scientific study of pad color with respect to color of the dog.

 

J.

[PSmitty]

Oh, geez. Now I need to go home and look at paw pads...

[Shoofly]

Ha ha, made you look. Zac and Spottie have predominantly black pads even though they're white factored. Gael, the black beast, has all black pads and all black toenails. I wonder if the black pads = tougher pads thing extends to black toenails too? Hmmm.

 

Okay, everyone go check toenails now.

[stockdogranch]

Ha ha, made you look.

 

This is beginning to sound an awful lot like the white/black hoof thing in horses, with black supposedly being the "stronger." I think current thinking is that that is not so, but, hey, my horse has crappy feet, so what do I know?

A

[Shoofly]

This is beginning to sound an awful lot like the white/black hoof thing in horses, with black supposedly being the "stronger." I think current thinking is that that is not so, but, hey, my horse has crappy feet, so what do I know?

A

 

Could be. I heard it years ago from an old hand here. I can't really say if it's true or not, it just stuck in my mind. It probably did come from the horse guys. I know i'd rather trim white nails, that's for sure.

[Mark Billadeau]

Bette has a mix of white toenail and black --but mostly white. The white toenails are much softer to trim. When we used to give our dogs chew hovves --there was a definite difference in the hardness of the different colored hooves --the lighter ones were softer.

Renee

[mbernard2424]

Problems could arise if you double up on the white factoring. In some dogs, the white factoring is not as clear as it is in others. It is my understanding that some white factored BCs are genetically merles; that the merling is not as easy to see in BCs as it is to see in other breeds so if you inadvertently breed two white factored dogs together that are genetically merles, then you will have issues such as deafness and possibly abnormalities of skeletal, cardiac and reproductive systems.

 

Black dogs stay cleaner looking than those with a lot of white on them.

[laurie etc]

... It is my understanding that some white factored BCs are genetically merles; that the merling is not as easy to see in BCs as it is to see in other breeds so if you inadvertently breed two white factored dogs together that are genetically merles, then you will have issues such as deafness and possibly abnormalities of skeletal, cardiac and reproductive systems.

 

Hmmm. Not really. While there ARE white factored merles, there are probably EXTREMELY few actual cryptic merles, and you'd have to be pretty blind (or ignorant) to confuse a white factored black and white BC with an actual merle. Besides, one of the parents of a "cryptic merle" would have to be a merle, so if you knew the pedigree, you would be able to avoid this whole issue. I think the problem comes more frequently in Shelties, where sable merles can be mistaken for sables because of the washed out merling in the tan coat. Sheltie breeders do lots of weird crossing, but they stay away from breeding sables to merles because of this.

I do know some uni -deaf dogs from breeding white factored to white-factored merles; and also just crossing two highly white-factored or white-headed dogs, as well. It's a shame but it happens more frequently than people realize - most dogs learn to compensate fairly well, and owners never know unless they have the dogs BAER tested.

 

Laurie

[Lenajo]

Here is an article by Dodds that covers the same info I got in the conference with her.

 

article

[2 Devils]

Tempe is white-factored. She has a combination of pink and black pads but mostly pink. She also has a mixture of black and white(pinkish) toenails. She has not had a problem ripping her pads luckily but I have another dog with more pink pads and he rips and burns them easily. The pink pads all seem to feel softer (less cracked) than the black pads on my dogs.

 

Tempe's white/pink toenails have a softer texture than the black ones and are easier to trim. They also don't split as easily as the black nails...

[in2adventure]

Lucia is obviously white factored. She's very healthy except for a slightly sensitive digestive system (NO processed foods whatsoever!). She also has pink eyes, pink pads and white toe nails (with 2 black ones thrown in for good measure). She's 2 y/o and going strong. Sunburn is always a concern with the light skin, but she's never had any. Her pads don't seem weaker or softer than normal and we hike in some pretty rough places.

 

There's always the worry of health problems with any dog you get. I wouldn't worry too much. As long as the parents are healthy and the breeders are reputable, just get the pup that you bonds with the best. Good luck

[kiwibc]

I have a whitefaced BC and he is an awesome herding dog. I think the white faced thing is a myth.

This is my first post to the BC boards. My name is Julie and I live in Utah. I have 4 BC's and 1 Toy Fox Terrier.

 

I am going to be picking a pup out of a planned litter some time around July. The dam has a lot of white, and is what would be considered white factored. The sire is almost all black, with very little white at all, and only the slightest bit of white on his feet, chest, muzzel and very little on the tip of the tail. I was talking to a friend the other day, and she cited that white factored or mostly white dogs generally arent as healthy as a darker or non white factored dog. Just wondering what your views on the subject are, as Ive seen numerous white or mostly white working collies that seem to be the picture of health. Most that Ive observed, ( whiter ones) have been bred leaning more towards cattle dog breeding. I know these pups are being bred to be workers, so Im not concerned about wether they will have ability or not, but am wondering if in picking one should I allow too much white to be a factor because of health concerns in my choosing? I kinda like a dog thats a little off the norm of the traditionally marked dog, so with out any input, Id probably go for the more chrome/ flashy looking dog.

[1sheepdoggal]

Utah! Thats my old stomping grounds. What part are you in? I lived SLC, Herber, Lehi, and Vernal just to name a few. Theres a great stockdog club in Utah, lots of real great folks, and they have all sorts of fun, you should get to know them. And welcome.

[Katelynn & Gang]

The only dog I have that has a problem with ripping his pads up is my only non white factored dog. His paws are also both black and pink with black nails. My red white factor female has pink paws with clear nails besides two red ones and my two black/sable/tri/whatevercolortheyare and white white factors have black paws with black nails.

 

Katelynn