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Wht factor dogs less healthy than mostly non wht factor?


1sheepdoggal
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Thanks for posting that reference, Lenajo. The only portion dealing with whiteness or color dilution that I could find in it was this:

 

Among the more commonly recognized predisposed [to IMHD] breeds were the Akita, American cocker spaniel, German shepherd dog, golden retriever, Irish setter, Great Dane, Kerry blue terrier, and all dachshund and poodle varieties; but predisposition was found especially in the standard poodle, longhaired dachshund, Old English sheepdog, Scottish terrier, Shetland sheepdog, shih tzu, vizsla, and Weimaraner,
as well as breeds of white or predominantly white coat color or with coat color dilution (e. g., blue and fawn Doberman pinschers, the merle collie, Australian shepherd, Shetland sheepdog, and harlequin Great Dane)
. 13 Recently, other investigators have noted the relatively high frequency of AIHA, ITP, or both in American cocker spaniels 10 and Old English sheepdogs. 13

 

The only supporting reference (note 13) was a study of Old English Sheepdogs, so assuming it contains these statements about other breeds, they must have been based on still different sources. (I haven't followed the reference trail to see what the ultimate supporting evidence might be.) But her statement is kind of odd, in that although she does mention "breeds of white or predominately white coat color" (see the portion I have put in boldface), the only examples she gives are of breeds with a lot of merle and dilution, not white or predominately white. Again, this seems pretty tenuous to me, and I'd like to know what her basis is. Maybe I will wander down that reference trail . . . .

 

ETA: I wonder if she could have been under the impression that harlequin Great Danes are white-factored because they appear predominately white. Actually, to the best of my knowledge they are all heterozygous merles, with a single "H" gene (which is lethal when homozygous) operating to fade the gray/blue of the merling to white.

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She has pink eyes? Is that a typo?

 

I believe she means the eyelids. A lot of white faced dogs look as though they have brown or black eyeliner on but there are those whose skin is not pigmented (lacks pigment) and is pink in color.

 

Lack of pigment isn't good in anything as problems can arise but is it a huge like ability? Not really as long as the lack of pigment isn't to the extent of almost albinism.

 

Usually you can look at a dog and tell if the lack of pigment is or isn't going to be a health problem sometime down the road. Just use common sence, does the pup look healthy?. Most good responsible working breeders I've seen have never produced a puppy whose health I'd question over lack of pigment.

 

Katelynn

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She has pink eyes? Is that a typo?

 

Sorry, I did mean pink eyelids. Most of her skin is very pink, with a few spotches of black under the white fur. She does have one upper lid with some "eyeliner". I am concerned, that down the road she may show some health problems, but as of yet, there are none.

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i live in Heber, Utah. I used to belong to the stock dog club. I just got too busy to go to all the gatherings but I know most of the people in it. Thanks for the welcome

 

Julie & the Kiwi K9's

 

Utah! Thats my old stomping grounds. What part are you in? I lived SLC, Herber, Lehi, and Vernal just to name a few. Theres a great stockdog club in Utah, lots of real great folks, and they have all sorts of fun, you should get to know them. And welcome.
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:rolleyes:

 

This is beginning to sound an awful lot like the white/black hoof thing in horses, with black supposedly being the "stronger." I think current thinking is that that is not so, but, hey, my horse has crappy feet, so what do I know? :D

A

 

Both my horses - a sorrel and white tobiano and a black and white sabino - have white feet. They're barefoot, and the farrier always complements me on what nice hooves they have. This is the same farrier that tells everybody else I know to buy supplements for their horses' hooves, so I think mine must really have good feet. :D

 

My one dog with all white nails, though, makes me wonder if hers are softer than the other dogs'. I have never cut them. I know, makes me sound like an awful owner, but Faith bites hers off. She has the shortest nails in the house.

 

Y'all are making me a little paranoid about Scot, my pyr/BC cross. He's all white except for his head, pink pads, pink chin, the works. Can y'all refer me to further reading on the perils of white-factoring?

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ETA: I wonder if she could have been under the impression that harlequin Great Danes are white-factored because they appear predominately white. Actually, to the best of my knowledge they are all heterozygous merles, with a single "H" gene (which is lethal when homozygous) operating to fade the gray/blue of the merling to white.

 

Almost right :D Dane colour genetics is a real mess :rolleyes: A current article on dane colour genetics:

http://www.chromadane.com/GDColor006.htm

 

The doubling up of the harlequin gene is not lethal. Danes can carry two copies of the Harl gene and not appear harl because they don't have the merle gene. Dogs who are double merles (with or without harl markings) often have vision and hearing problems but unless the breeder culls, they are no more likely to die at birth than a coloured pup. Dane breeders more correctly call dogs double-merle. The "lethal" term comes from horses where it actually resulted in death, although dog breeders do still call it lethal white.

 

Harlequin danes are double heterozygotes HhMm - harlequin and merle to be true harls. You still get lots of messed up colours - fawniquins, brindleqins and the like. Most from byb and colour breeders, but some from good breeders that have a long term recessive gene pop up.

 

Dane breeders don't usually do double merle breedings because that colour isn't desirable in danes, but byb will do harlxharl breedings and risk the deaf/blind pups to get the "perfect" colour pattern and minimize the number of black dogs, which sell for lower prices.

 

You do get dilute black danes (blues) and you do see an increase in health issues. How much of that is related to the colour itself, and how much is related to in/line-breeding to try and increase the number of blue dogs is strongly debated by dane breeders.

 

Danes are a perfect example of a "colour" breed that has been ruined by focusing on size and colour over temperament and structure :D

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The only color my white factored dog has on him is his Merle ears and a black stripe on his head, and as I have said before he is completely deaf, he was born without ANY hearing mechanisms inside his ears.

 

His pads are pink and yes he used to have all kinds of problems where we used to live on the highly acid soil, since we moved here to the high desert, not one problem, Thank goodness.

 

Otherwise all the other problems he was supposed to have because he's white (eyesight, cancer, skin cancer etc) have never appeared and he will be 10 on Feb. 9th. When I took him to the vet as a pup for his first shots I heard all the horror stories of what to expect with this almost pure white dog, Thank God the vet has been wrong so far!

 

The thing I find funny is when he is wet and you can see his skin under the hair he is completely spotted just like a dalmation! So his skin has color, just didn't turn out into the hair!

 

Lisa H

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Almost right :D Dane colour genetics is a real mess

 

So I have always thought. :D I never got into it at all deeply and I would never pretend to understand it. Many thanks for the interesting article, though I can't say it cleared it all up for me. :rolleyes:

 

I did realize that Harlequin Danes are HhMm. I was under the impression that HH was lethal in utero, but I may have always been wrong about that, or it may be something that was once believed but now has been refuted by DNA research. However, the main point to my mind was that Harlequin Danes are always merles (Mm), and I gather that is now confirmed.

 

Danes are a perfect example of a "colour" breed that has been ruined by focusing on size and colour over temperament and structure

 

Same old story. :D

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Danes are a perfect example of a "colour" breed that has been ruined by focusing on size and colour over temperament and structure :D

 

Wow, times have changed since I showed Danes (twenty five years ago :rolleyes: ). Back then, few judges would put up colored dogs. If it wasn't fawn or brindle, you might just as well stay home.

 

Size, though - yes, size was something they were going for even back then. :D

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i live in Heber, Utah. I used to belong to the stock dog club. I just got too busy to go to all the gatherings but I know most of the people in it. Thanks for the welcome

 

Hey Julie, I love Heber. Such quaint liitle town. Pretty decent mexican resturant there too! And your right down the street from the trial grounds for the Soldier Hollow trials,... Im envious. I loved going to that trial. Meeker isnt such a far haul either for ya, if ya dont mind driving a few hours, its definitly worth it. Losts of great dogs and handlers at both. I used to train with a fella there in Herber, if your looking for some one to train with, Id suggest giving him a call. The guy is getting on up there, but has so much knowledge that its worth putting up with a bit of a gruff persona just to glean what ya can from him. Who are ya getting your dog from? I know a lot of the sheep dog folks from all over the state, and am courious. I got my first collie from him, and I got my avatar dog Chris from him 8 yrs later. He's got some good stock and dogs.

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You shouldn't have a problem with your girl, Sally. Pyrs aren't prone to the coloration problems - they are born with very strong pigment that fades - check her earflap undersides if you are uneasy - there should be color there.

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You shouldn't have a problem with your girl, Sally. Pyrs aren't prone to the coloration problems - they are born with very strong pigment that fades - check her earflap undersides if you are uneasy - there should be color there.

 

Actually Prys are predisposed now to deafness because of show breeding emphasis on pure white. They are steadily removing the pigmentation (badger, spotted) out of the breed because it doesn't show as well as white and now...guess what, they are seeing deaf dogs.

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post-8400-1201632366_thumb.jpg

 

Hello,

I am new to the board and trying to learn a little about herding as my border collie mix may need an additional activity to agility. I have two dogs. A mostly white merle border collie mix with dark shaded markings on his face, ears, and around the eyes. And a white aussie likely double merle. They are both rescues. They both have health problems. The border collie mix has hip dysplasia - but runs like a maniac, overbite - teeth now fixed to prevent worse conditions, abdominal hernia - now fixed, and anxiety/noise phobias - much improved with behavioral therapy and meds. The white aussie has seizures and micro-opthalmalgia. She is completely blind in the left eye and has limited vision in the right. However, she can still zip around the house/yard and play ball. That being said. My dogs are likely the result of merle to merle breeding, thus the health problems seen in double merle collie-type breeds such as sheltie, border collies, and aussies. However, I am pretty sure that white factoring in a border collie is different from the merle to merle breeding. There is also a border collie in my neigborhood who appears to be healthy and is marked almost identical to my border collie mix without the light merle marks and has black instead of shaded marks on the face. She is most likely highly white factored rather than a double merle. Here is a good article on white border collies -

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/kpwhite.html

 

Mel, Bonnie, and the Baxter

 

post-8400-1201632318_thumb.jpg

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