Animal Planet show looking for problematic Border Collie behavior in New York

[Steve Dost]

Hi there,

 

My name is Steve Dost, and I am an associate producer with Optomen Productions in New York. We are producing a presentation tape for Animal Planet about dog breeds, and our tape will feature Border Collies. In addition to herding and agility trials, we would like to feature a segment on pet psychology.

 

If you have a Border Collie in the New York area with problematic behavior (e.g. obsessive-compulsive problems), write to me at steve.dost@optomenusa.com with your story, pictures of your Border Collie, and your contact information.

 

Thanks!

[BustopherJones]

If you have a Border Collie in the New York area with problematic behavior (e.g. obsessive-compulsive problems)

Actually, OCD is normal in Border Collies...

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Uh, yeah. Pretty funny!

 

Anyway, you all should contact Dr. Karen Overall at Penn State. http://abrionline.org/expert.php?id=21 She's had experience with many breeds and has worked with various media as an expert, before.

[1sheepdoggal]

Accually, I had this vision, when I saw the title:

 

A couple of old ranch dogs and a few young upstarts, sitting around the camp fire, dipping thier milk bones in a jar of salsa, and watching a barbie collie futily trying to fetch some sheep, and the words "NEW YORK CITY! forming on one of the old dogs lips while all the others looked over to see Banjo Barbie failing miserably.

 

Sorry, Just my sick sence of humor.

[painted_ponies]

Actually, OCD is normal in Border Collies...

 

I've been told it's fairly common in Border Collie owners, as well. Probably comes from being stared at all the time.

[sweet_ceana]

LOL! And carpal tunnel/ tennis elbow from playing ball 16 hours a day!

[mbc1963]

LOL! And carpal tunnel/ tennis elbow from playing ball 16 hours a day!

 

Oh, yeah, and don't forget hyperpronation aggravated by excessive hiking required to keep a busy dog calm. Orthotics kicking in for $100+!

 

Mary

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I ruined my plantar fascia playing soccer - in flip flops. That's probably the relevant topic to be covered, if the issues is "Challenges of living with a Border Collie."

 

Not to mention the whole, buying a farm thing.

[1sheepdoggal]

In leiu of the original post, it got me to thinking about a thread Id read on another board, and I borrowed a few snipits from it.

 

Border Collies don't have to be always "on" - no matter what people tell you.

 

A well-bred border collie is NOT a crazy, hyper, thoughtless, no impulse control type of dog. Some can be made that way by people that excuse such behaviour or encourage it - but they are NOT born that way.

 

contrary to myth, a well bred, working bred, border collie does NOT need massive stimulation. That is, unless the owner has trained it to need that.

 

 

A good Border Collie, is not nervous, neurotic, or hyper, and will be a grand companion as well as work when needed, having the mind to understand when he is, and isn't, needed. They don't need foolish "jobs" all day just to keep them happy either, and are very much "just a dog" in regards to being a pet if raised with manners and structure.

 

You can do 10,000 extra things with your working dog if you want and it pleases you,...from Flyball to Search and Rescue...but I'd avoid a breeder or seller who told you that such was a requirement to having a well behaved Border Collie like the plague. Behind the "they need tons of exercise" is a litany of excuses by breeders and owners for dogs that are poorly bred, and/or badly trained in simple manners

 

Not my views, just some things that Id read. I am torn, and have a hard time agreeing with "all" of this, as I have 5 well bred working Border Collies. 2 are I feel, obsessive compulsive, ( throw the ball, Throw the Ball, THROW THE BALL!!, chew the bone, Chew The Bone, CHEW, CHEW, CHEW THE BONE! Get the sheep, Get The Sheep, GOTTA GET THE SHEEEEEP!) They have lived thier entire lives so far like this, and theres no changing that. Its who they are. Probably why they spend more time in the box, than the other 3, who are as normal as dirt on a childs face. But I wonder, if the breed has become so well known for having these behaviors that television folks are now wanting to feature the Border Collie as "The OCD Dog" and to document it, is it really the breed? Or the breeding? Or is it that these behaviors begin so sublty that we dont notice it until its to late? Is it what the border collie has always been, or what it has become? Are the majority of Border Collies like this now? The 2 that I have that I feel are OCD, I knew they were from the moment I got them as pups, and I wonder if because it has become such an accepted/ expected norm for the breed, ( oh, all border collies are that way) that knowing/ accepting/ believing this, didnt stop me from taking these pups home. Should it, in the future if they turned out to be fantastic working dogs worthy of replicating, stop me from breeding them because they may pass these traits on to thier offspring? Just contemplating out loud, but would like to hear some input.

[Bill Fosher]

Am I the only one here who remembers Tommy Wilson with Pearl (who was the other one?) herding sheep out of a taxicab into radio city music hall, into the elevator, and down the aisle onto the stage of the David Letterman show?

 

How would that be for problematic behavior in New York?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

That sounds like something I've said a million times on general dog sort of communities. And sadly, also a few times on Border Collie communities, where people should know better.

 

We rescuers probably are the most at fault. We tried to get in front of the wave of folks running to get the "world's smartest dog", one of those adorable talking puppies from Babe, the latest and greatest AKC breed. We said, "No! You don't understand, you don't want a dog that will outthink you and then tear the house to pieces because it was fully trained by the age of six weeks old."

 

It's totally true that a badly adjusted, or badly bred, or both, Border Collie will fall into the most insane behaviors. But these, for one thing, are not unique to the Border Collie. They are just Bored Dog Behaviors. It's just that the Border Collie gets bored more easily.

 

But, we were too successful I think. We convinced the next generation of novices to the breed that OCD behaviors and hyperness were normal to the breed. Many Border Collie characteristics can look very OCD but truly aren't. That's what made me chuckle at Mr. Dost's comment about "problematic" OCD behaviors. But, if people think abnormal behaviors are acceptable, that's when the breed starts taking a turn for the worse. The problem is that you don't know what's normal and what's over the line, until you use the work to sort out what is productive and what is not.

 

Many, many non-working breeders think whacked out, hyper, no-off-switch dogs are okay. These are characteristics that a thoughtful, honest working breeder would reject as deconstructive to the working relationship. Most farmers can't use a dog that has to be put up when not being used, for fear the dog will freelance (I"m talking about mature dogs, not just starting out, of course) - or that the dog will go make up games like "chase shadows" or "bark at flies." Or that really fun game favored by dogs on the edge of insanity - Self Mutilation.

 

So, that's my feeling on where to draw the line, Darci. I have "culled" - through re-homing - three dogs that I loved and had some potential, but all had similar problems with just having too much go and not enough stop. Working dogs need balance to be useful - and if the dogs are worked properly, the work itself will show where that balance is.

 

I may change my opinion down the road, but for now it's what has worked for me, in making these decisions.

[bcnewe2]

How would that be for problematic behavior in New York?

 

gauckers(sp)?

 

None of the dogs I've raised are OCD except the ones that I didn't know any better when I was raising them. Even those have adapted to my needs now. But I can relate to THROW THE DARN BALL NOW dogs when looking at the above mentioned dogs. I still rarely throw the ball.

 

Mick would rather work than do anything else. He lies by the door or on the porch waiting till I say something about working. He's not interested in anything else unless he knows there's no sheep to be found where we are. He then makes do with things that other dogs might find satisfying. Sorta like an alcoholic would maybe turn to other drugs but they would not quite bring on the buzz that alcohol might. He’s certainly not a bother while lying around waiting to work. You could even call him lazy except on sheep.

 

Without proper training any dog can become OCD. I think BC's might be a bit easier to let get to that point with their wonderful work ethic if not channeled correctly or trained properly.

Just my opinion and maybe my laziness showing though.

Kristen

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Am I the only one here who remembers Tommy Wilson with Pearl (who was the other one?) herding sheep out of a taxicab into radio city music hall, into the elevator, and down the aisle onto the stage of the David Letterman show?

 

Bill, that was Ben, Molly, and Roy. There were three. Here's the link that shows both the first appearance and the second on the 10th anniversary show (they were the climax of the show, apparently!): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa3aG_BfpqE

[Shetlander]

Without proper training any dog can become OCD. I think BC's might be a bit easier to let get to that point with their wonderful work ethic if not channeled correctly or trained properly.

 

I think that's an excellent point. I look at BC's as not dogs for the average owner. They require more energy, time and commitment than the average dog.

 

Part of me is irritated when I hear the usual litany of cautions about BC's -- hyper, need hours of exercise every day, must be given a "job" of some sort, will chase/herd/nip anything, etc. Then again, part of me is horrified when someone sees Quinn on his best behavior and they say they want a dog just like him and Border Collies are the best family pets. Anyway, what I do when people are impressed by Well Mannered Quinn is stress BC's needs lot of training, structure and exercise. When they see Intense Quinn, I just shrug off knowing comments from people about what OCD/hyper/driven BC's are like. If it keeps one less person who should never have a BC from getting one, they can think what they like about my dog and his breed.

 

Until you live with a BC or at least spend lots of time with one in a variety of settings, I don't think you can truly understand what they're like. Some of my friends don't believe me when I say Quinn has been wonderful to live with since about 6 months old or that he is very laid back around the house. I wouldn't have believed it myself 5 years ago when all I ever saw of BC's was at agility shows where they were at their most intense. Now I know better.

[juliepoudrier]

Becca,

Tommy did a second appearance on Letterman with Pearl and Dot(??). I remember it clearly because Pearl was doing the alligator snapping thing the whole way.... (We all watched the show at a trial Sam held at her old place near Richmond.)

 

J.

[SnickerKitten]

Look at humans with very high intelligence. It's extremely common to find gifted individuals with some intense personality or behavioral quirks. Well, BCs being the gifted children of the dog world are of course going to be very likely to have quirks.

 

Sorry I can't help you out, Steve. My bc is perfectly behaved <*cough*> at all <*cough cough*> times and in all places <*snort cough*>

 

Actually, I was showing my daughter the difference between a really smart dog and an average dog today. I got my bc and my mom's GSD next to each other and had them repeatedly sit and lay down- sit, flop, sit, flop, sit, flop, etc. Gretchen (GSD) waited for the command and did every command when I gave it. After about 3 repetitions Stormy (bc) started just doing it before I gave the commands.

 

Lori

[1sheepdoggal]

It's totally true that a badly adjusted, or badly bred, or both, Border Collie will fall into the most insane behaviors. But these, for one thing, are not unique to the Border Collie. They are just Bored Dog Behaviors. It's just that the Border Collie gets bored more easily.

 

Thank you Becca. For this I know to be true. The original post had me amused at first, then it made me angry. It just felt like a slap in the face.

 

To you Steve: The border Collie may have its tendancies, but first and fore most, it is the Worlds Premier Herding Dog. Ya want OCD?? Go check out the JRT, the labrador, the schnauzer, the min pin, how about the malinois, golden ret. just to name a few. Im with snickerkitten in saying,....

 

Sorry I can't help you out, Steve. My bc is perfectly behaved <*cough*> at all <*cough cough*> times and in all places <*snort <*snort cough

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I want to pull back a bit and consider that his post didn't actually say, "We want a Border Collie that shows OCD, a typical behavior problem for the breed." It said "If you have a Border Collie in the New York area with problematic behavior (e.g. obsessive-compulsive problems). The amusing part is of course that most people would consider every Border Collie worth his salt, inflicted with OCD, or ADHD, at times.

 

If Mr. Dost wanted his show to explore serious problems which affect Border Collies, they need to consider the rise in reactive aggression which is threatening both human family members and friends of such dogs, and the lives of these dogs themselves. Nature or nurture would be an excellent question, which is why I directed him to an expert. Actually, I may send him an email directly as most likely he is not bothering to return here after posting his request to contact him directly.

[Michelle K]

To you Steve: The border Collie may have its tendancies, but first and fore most, it is the Worlds Premier Herding Dog. Ya want OCD?? Go check out the JRT, the labrador, the schnauzer, the min pin, how about the malinois, golden ret. just to name a few.

 

I just wanted to say that I don't agree completely with the OCD and a Schnauzer. I've lived with 4 over the years, and one of those is with me now at the age of almost 8yrs old. I've never seen any of them being an OCD dog. Now, I do agree about the JRT 110%. Of course, this impression of mine could come from living with 3 Shelties and a BC. I guess if I can handle them, I can handle almost anything, right?!

[BustopherJones]

Look at humans with very high intelligence. It's extremely common to find gifted individuals with some intense personality or behavioral quirks.

DW would say that, given that I am a Mensan, this would explain a lot...

[Northof49]

Look at humans with very high intelligence. It's extremely common to find gifted individuals with some intense personality or behavioral quirks. Well, BCs being the gifted children of the dog world are of course going to be very likely to have quirks.

 

I have always remembered at one of the first Ian Dunbar seminars I went to years ago, someone posed a question about a Border Collie. He said that this seminar was about dogs, not Border Collies - that's a separate topic altogether

[BC-Liz]

Actually, I may send him an email directly as most likely he is not bothering to return here after posting his request to contact him directly.

 

That's probably the best idea. I highly doubt he'll return to this forum. He's probably already forgotten about it.

 

Lots of very interesting points from everyone. I wish I had some to add but everything I would say has already been said.

[1sheepdoggal]

I just wanted to say that I don't agree completely with the OCD and a Schnauzer

 

Just an observation, in handling 100's of them over the years, and talking with clients about thier pets. A breed I greatly admire, (course I tend to like all the terrier breeds) but one that I feel it takes a special type of person to to be able to live with. Like the BC its not a breed for everyone.

 

If Mr. Dost wanted his show to explore serious problems which affect Border Collies, they need to consider the rise in reactive aggression which is threatening both human family members and friends of such dogs, and the lives of these dogs themselves

 

A much better idea, and one that doesnt lable the breed as a neuotic spaz as Mr. Dost would seem to want to have folks believe if ODC was what he had in mind to showcase the Border Collie as being. I understood the post as saying that they were going to have points on it about herding and agility, but had pin pointed the BC as the breed for OCD. Perhaps if he'd have simply said OCD dogs, more of a general question, as in any/all dogs that may have these OCD tendencies, it wouldnt have struck such a cord in me.

[mbc1963]

I myself didn't find the original post problematic. I think there are lots of breeds that, taken in by the wrong home, would create trouble if not worked correctly. Honestly, I'd like to have families recognize the work they'll have to put into keeping a border collie (or beagle or Jack Russell) physically and mentally challenged enough to be content. My dog is wonderful - sleeps all day when I'm not home, never chews, doesn't bark much anymore - but I do walk him 2 hours a day, off-leash for about an hour. When I can't get out (rain, ice, etc..), I do begin to see behaviors like barking and demanding attention that would be tough to live with... and I think it's good for people to know about that stuff!

 

Mary

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

An update on this - I did write Mr. Dost directly and got a super-nice note back from him, that he thought pursuing the reactivve aggression and nature vs. nurture angle was a good idea.

 

Relavent to your point, Mary, I'll quote directly from his note to me:

 

a lot of people get them for their looks and their "intelligence" without considering their unique psychological / physical needs.

 

I'm encouraged and look forward to seeing what comes of this.

 

I hate quoting myself, but I thought I'd pass on this portion of my note to Mr. Dost, so you could see what we were discussing:

 

I see two major forces at

work, and it's difficult to separate the two without extensive research

which my work does not give me time for. One is the greater number of

Border Collies that are incorporated into urban/suburban life, without

consideration of their unique needs.

 

The second major force is the increased number of Border Collies that

are bred strictly for high-energy sports, without the balance of the

quiet and reserve needed to work around livestock. These dogs have lots

of go-go-go and no "stop". I fear this is harming the breed. I think

both would be relevant questions for your show if you intend to discuss

challenges facing the Border Collie breed today.