Type of handler

[Pippin's person]

I've been wondering for a while about when you know the type of dog you like to work with and whether you stick to that type once you've decided on it. As a relatively new handler, I don't really seem to have a specific type of dog I like, but find myself drawn to various things about different dogs (both those I watch and those I work myself). I don't know if that's more about being new or about who I am as a handler.

 

Do youse find you have a specific type of worker that you look for over and over or do you find more that you look for different types of characteristics in different dogs or for dogs intended for specific purposes? (I'm not sure I've quite phrased this question right, honestly, but I couldn't figure out a better way to ask).

 

ETA: And just out of curiosity--what "types" do folks like especially?

[1sheepdoggal]

The type that works, is trainable, likes me, listens, obeys and that doesnt eat much.

[Liz P]

A dog that *NEVER* quits.

 

I have one, 9 years old and retired. His body failed him long before he was ready to stop working. I wish I could bottle his work ethic and heart and give it to all my dogs (and myself). No matter how much I asked of him, no matter how much pressure he was under, he gave me 200%. When he was a young dog he partially tore his ACL and I never knew it. He kept on working like he always did until I told him he had done a good job, at which point he collapsed to the ground. I will be getting a pup out of his half sister in a few years. From what I have seen she has the same heart.

[stockdogranch]

Biddable. Level-headed. Quick learner. Mature enough to start very young. One that thinks for herself. Balls of steel--able to walk up calmly into the face of cattle, hold ground, and convince the stock to turn and leave. A strong nose hit and heel hit, but a dog that uses them as the last resort. Able to stand some pressure--not a soft dog, never one that quits from pressure--either from me or the stock. Ideally, one that can "read my mind" when working,

A

[kelpiegirl]

I am a nice person, and I don't like to yell a lot. I am also not super competitive. I suppose that takes me out of the ranks as a serious competitor (that last one). But, I don't care. I like a dog who is confident on sheep, and will not harrass them- and is kind to them. I also like a dog who is ready to go whenever I want her, and a dog with a temperament I can live with. I will never a) make a living off my sheep trialing, or take it to the point where it is the most important thing in my life, so I guess I just want my dog to behave, and use her innate ability when I ask. No biggy.

Oh, and there are lots of folks that match that description out there- I know several really well- those who don't need a lot of chat, or lots of work, but who's good honest dogs kick butt on the occasion- that's keeping it all in perspective. If it became like agility to me- then I would quit, and just work my dogs on the farm.

[Wendy V]

Robin, are you asking about method or personality characteristics?

 

When I was new to sheepherding, I found myself attracted to a certain type of dog (stylish, quick and flashy) but have found that I like working with various types of dogs. Frankly, I work with whatever I have on hand and try to make the most of it. However, I would clone Dexter if I could, since to me, he is the best sheepdog in the whole wide world.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

This is a really good question.

 

When I first started, I was attracted to the "Bad Boys" - though they were mostly girls - fast, super natural, hill dog types, usually hot as all get out (hair triggers). Not for any particular reason, it was just that if a dog threw himself headlong into a flank and couldn't be stopped for love or money, I fell hard and fast for that dog. Also, as plain working as possible because that was what I was used to from my first dog.

 

Fast forward to my first real trial dog. I had to have him trained because I didn't even have close to the timing he needed to learn what he was supposed to do. I had my highs and lows with him, but after several years of handling him for a while, then sending him back to fix what I'd screwed up, I realized something important. I might love that kind of dog, but they didn't love me.

 

The next time I went dog shopping I described my sheep. And I looked for a dog that was easier to handle. I'm pretty sure now that the dog I need is resilient enough to handle tough work and my stupid mistakes, but also seeks out and enjoys work as a team. This was, in fact, the way my first dog was/is. In spite of all my mishandling, he's never lost his gusto for work, and it never takes more than a word of praise to fix a behavior firmly.

 

I still prefer a more plain worker to a really stylish one (though working Cord does make me go all woggly when he really takes control), and I still like those fast clean flanks. But I've learned to ask myself whether the dog in question also has the other pieces of the puzzle for me, before I fall in love.

[Caroline Reichard]

I used to work in Urban Search and Rescue, and my taste in dogs developed there. I trained dogs that had to deploy on long, dangerous calls, and were expected to search collapsed buildings on their own, with no handler, under the most extreme conditions. Such dogs were rare; they had to have a tremendous work ethic and be confident working on their own or with minimal guidance from the handler. They had to be so driven to work that they would work under any conditions. The flip side of this is that they are hard-headed and require respect more than affection for their handlers. (Think Bute in Nop's Hope).

 

I own a farm now and have children. I don't do USAR any more. But I still find myself powerfully drawn to these tough, independent dogs whose respect you have to earn. In my limited experience, they have been line dogs, strongly drawn in to their sheep, and they don't come to the training field with much concern about respecting "the bubble." My impression is that they can make good dogs for the pros but often become criminals with novices. I have owned a few; my 9 year old male is not exactly a criminal but has always been too strong for me to be comfortable trialing. I get the feeling that I would have started trialing many years ago if I found a different sort of dog more appealing: a dog that was more biddable, more inclined to a team player. I have such a dog now, and she is a pleasure everyday to work with, but I still find myself really drawn to my younger dog whose desire to get to his sheep is far, far more important to him than working as a team has ever been. Progress with him has been slower, but more satisfying.

[Pippin's person]

Robin, are you asking about method or personality characteristics?

 

I was asking more about method or style, I think, than specifically personality (though I guess those aren't entirely independent). I was thinking less about the kinds of things it seems that most folks agree on in a worker (though perhaps there are fewer of those than I think) and more on the things that handlers disagree on--the things that lead some handlers to run toward a specific line/breeding and others to walk (or maybe run) away. And wondering about dog/handler teams that work (and don't) and why they work or don't (now, you see why I had trouble actually articulating the question). Are there handlers out there who really love the slightly soft, sensitive dogs?

 

I know a lot of it is probably pretty ephemeral and hard to even nail down, although everyone has pretty much been answering the question I think I was trying to ask.

 

What about Dexter makes him the best sheepdog in the world in your eyes (other than his handsome speckles of course )

[L and M Ranch]

I find myself drawn to a certain type of dog but I've been learning to work with whatever dog I have it at the time and help it become the best dog it can be (at least with me).

I prefer to work dog's with a big motor, tons of heart and loads of natural ability. I have learned to appreciate different styles (although I do love a stylish dog that has enough eye to make them that way without being even slightly sticky) as long as they can get the job done. I would prefer to "ride the brakes" on a dog than ask them on. I will go the extra mile for a dog who partner's up with me while at the same time dripping with intensity and power.

Everybody (dogs and humans both) has their own faults and it has become more of what I WON'T live with in a dog than what I will. A dog that doesn't have heart, try, grit won't cut it for me. I can work with the rest.

[juliepoudrier]

I prefer a natural dog with a bit of eye. By natural, I mean one that can do a silent gather and read sheep and react appropriately without a lot of input from me. I am a quiet handler, don't like giving a lot of commands and so I want a dog that will work without a lot of direction (which usually goes along with having a bit of eye). A bit of eye IMO makes the dog better at penning and shedding (there's nothing I like more than a dog that will work the shed and pen with me with minimal commands from me, or that can size up a job and let me concentrate on what I'm doing, say, vaccinating or worming, and hold up her end, keeping the sheep where I need them to be, without me having to pay attention to her). I want a partner who, as someone else mentioned, can pretty much read my mind and doesn't quit even when the going gets or has been tough--that is, a dog who's always there at the end of the day. I like speed, and I like biddability, but I also want a dog who's independent and confident enough in the job to be able to tell me when to "take a hike." That said, I once bought a dog who was quite different from the dog(s) I was used to working because I thought it would improve me as a handler and trainer, and it did. I'm not one to sell dogs on, so I pretty much will work with what I've got, but I do try to stack the deck in favor of my "type" of dog if I'm starting with a pup.

 

Oh, and as for the question about when did I know what type of handler I was, I think I knew pretty much from the start. I spent a lot of time riding and showing horses, and had the same sort of quiet approach to training and working horses as I do to working dogs. My first two working dogs were rescues, and they often required "special" handling to work around some of their issues. I think having to work these dogs around their issues gave me a lot of insight into what I would like in a dog, but it also taught me how to work through things with dogs who have issues or are otherwise difficult (and by difficult I don't mean hard-headed, just that they have quirks or needs that required workarounds or handling through). When I started trialing I watched a lot of dogs at trials and got an idea of what I liked and then found a pup from dogs I admired and went from there. That pup went on to became my main work and trial dog, and she's certainly not perfect, but she does have a lot of the traits I really want in a working dog, so I can accept the faults that much more easily.

 

J.

[Bill Fosher]

Back over the winter, someone asked me what I was looking for in a dog. I had a very long list, but I summed it up this way: lightning in a jar.

 

I'd much rather have to keep my foot on the brake than the accelerator. I want a dog that comes onto the sheep directly -- straighter than a preacher. I want an outrun that's natural. Work ethic. Sheep sense. Mental and physical stamina.

[kelpiegirl]

Bill

I saw your pup's mom work this weekend. If she turns out like her mom, I don't think you will be dissapointed.

 

 

Back over the winter, someone asked me what I was looking for in a dog. I had a very long list, but I summed it up this way: lightning in a jar.

 

I'd much rather have to keep my foot on the brake than the accelerator. I want a dog that comes onto the sheep directly -- straighter than a preacher. I want an outrun that's natural. Work ethic. Sheep sense. Mental and physical stamina.

[Guest pax]

I want to be the Grace Kelly of dog handlers.

 

Instead, I am Carrot Top.

 

 

 

I am still so new to this all I want is for nobody to get permanently ruined...me, sheep, dogs. How's that for aspirations?

[Maizy]

Celia - I am with you. I just don't want to ruin my dogs. It is evident that I am not a confident handler which I'm sure will come with time. I know this because Keegan works much better for a confident handler.

 

I have a while to evaluate dogs and their style before I start to look for another pup...but I'm with Julie and work with what I got. So for right now, I prefer my dogs even if they will never be stellar at working but I feel that we are in this together and we will learn it together no matter what it takes!!!

[kelpiegirl]

I've gotten to the point, where I am not so concerned about what I am doing wrong with my dog- I am more concerned with ensuring that she is challenged, and able to progress- and I don't get overly worried about the things I used to. There are nuances in each dog that could be better/different- the big picture is what is most important. I guess I have relaxed a bit- I mean, when it comes down to it, these dogs are born with EVERYTHING they need- it isn't taught, it is molded to meet our requirements. If you have a good dog, that's what you have- though, I will concede that some are better able to bring out that star quality better than others

[Pipedream Farm]

We need very natural gathering dogs. We only have a 110 yard outrun at home and having a dog with outrun problems is difficult for us to train. I prefer a fast running-quick flanking dog (my personal taste) but I know that a lot of sheep wont like this type of movement. This type of dog REALLY improves your timing. I also want a dog that wants to be my partner.

 

What I'm finding now is that it's not so much what type of dog I like or don't like; it's what holes/problems I don't mind working on and those I hate to work on.

 

Mark

[Marilyn T]

In your original post, you asked if people tend to stick with the type of dog they like. Unless you buy semi trained dogs or trained dogs all the time, you will not be able to do this. Even if you breed like to like, you cannot guarantee what you will get in any puppy you raise. Many throughout a litter will be very different. Unless you are willing to sell those puppies if they don't meet your type wants, you will learn to work with what you have.

 

A lot of people do just that, either buy exactly what they think they want, or move on a young dog if they don't like what it is showing. Often, a dog just simply does not thrive with a certain handler, and both handler and dog benefit from the dog finding a new home. All of this said, there are no perfect dogs nor will there be. Either you continually look for that perfection by buying and selling dogs, or learn to work with what you end up with. There is tremendous opportunity for you to grow as a handler by working with what you end up with. There are also lots of dogs who might not be able to deal with you as a handler, who just might be happier in another home.

 

Many future problems can be averted by proper raising of the young dogs. Many sulky dogs are created as babies, because they are not held up to standards, and once training begins, they don't want to be part of a team, but would rather be independent. Many 'flaws' can be worked with, or changed. I have had 7 working border collies so far in my 18 years of trying to conquer this sport. All were different. All had great things about them, and all had/have faults. Some were easy, some were difficult. By working to make all the best that they could be, I have grown as a handler. Mac was my overly cautious dog. Sage was my sticky on the outrun dog. Scott is my valley boy who has talent, but would rather socialize, and Lena was my pocket rocket, who turned out to be epileptic. Queen is the only one who came to me as an adult, and she had socializing issues that almost did her in. I was her last chance. Snitch I bred, and is the perfect example of what not to do. I bred opposites trying to get the best of both. I should have stuck to likes. Gin is the one that was forced on me because I had no room for another dog, but a great friend told me I would have been 'stupid' not to get her. She is spectacular, but she has issues also.

 

I think you can stack the deck for what you think you want, but many people are not capable of handling what they want early on in their handling/training career. Needs change. A fast pushy dog, who has loads of talent is very attractive, but not necessarily the best choice for a beginner handler. Three to five years down the road, maybe you will be in a place where that same dog might be the perfect choice for you. Frankly, I don't know anybody who doesn't change what they think they want over the years. One friend wanted a 'hard' dog early on, and now she wants a biddable one. One started with a marshmallow, did well with her, but now thinks he needs a tough dog, and is constantly searching or that dog. Many want different types just for trialing purposes. I remember a big hat saying the perfect trialing pair would be a strong dog, who can handle the tough sheep, and a softer dog, who can handle the lighter sheep. That way, he was in the money no matter what the trial used.

 

One of the posts said something about a dog's method...liking a dog who walked straight on to his sheep. I think if you find dogs who approach sheep with a method you admire, that would be your best chance of getting what you like in puppies. Otherwise, you should stick to buying what you want in either started dogs or trained ones.

[Pippin's person]

I want to be the Grace Kelly of dog handlers.

 

Instead, I am Carrot Top.

 

I am still so new to this all I want is for nobody to get permanently ruined...me, sheep, dogs. How's that for aspirations?

 

Those are mine as well, Celia. I think of myself kind of like Neville Longbottom (from the Harry Potter series--a bit of a bumbling fool who finally matures) doing sheep work.

[Pippin's person]

What I'm finding now is that it's not so much what type of dog I like or don't like; it's what holes/problems I don't mind working on and those I hate to work on.

 

Mark

 

And which holes are which for you?

[Wendy V]

Robin,

 

I'm not quite sure what you are looking for in a response. Perhaps it would help us if you could express the motivation behind your ruminations.

[Pippin's person]

Robin,

 

I'm not quite sure what you are looking for in a response. Perhaps it would help us if you could express the motivation behind your ruminations.

 

The motivation isn't much loftier than plain old curiosity and interest.

[Smokjbc]

Hi,

 

I'm a pretty "easy" person- I allow my dogs more wiggle room than they should get, most of the time, but I can lose my temper (not abusively, just not very constructively VBG) so I need a dog that won't throw up it's paws if I'm having a spasm.

 

When I started out, what I wanted was something balls to the wall tough. Thought I got it but didn't have a clue about some "tough" dogs actually being scared and acting out- that was my first dog who was a wreck. Each dog I've had since has taught me to appreciate an intelligent dog with a strong work ethic above all things. I don't want a quitter or a wilting flower. I don't ever want a sticky dog again, but I have not had once since my second dog and I'm pretty sure I encouraged her, out of ignorance, to be that way. Most of all, I want them to bring their method "to the table" so to speak. I don't want to have to teach them HOW, just the WHEN and WHERE. The good dogs, in my opinion, should know more than I do about livestock- with allowances made for age and enthusiasm.

 

I have two very different trial dogs right now- one is a very fast dog that may seem to be pushy and wilfull but what she really does is over-exaggerate every command. She's made me step up to the plate handling wise but she always gets it done and has incredible heart and stamina. She's been ill lately, we are still not sure what is wrong with her, and I really miss working her and am VERY sorry I did not enter her in the last trial I went in (we will again, as soon as she is well) because I was nervous about moving both dogs into Open at the same time so went with my "user friendly" model.

 

My "user-friendly" dog is very stylish, can tend to be overly cautious but she is fun to handle because she is such a good listener. She can have issues with confidence that I've had to learn patience with and she's not the grittiest dog in the world. I'd have her over again though with a little more push. What I don't like about her is that she runs too wide when she's feeling too much pressure.

 

Both of the above dogs came with a very distinct method of working that training can modify but the core characteristics are what they brought to the table. (Nellie- Fast, upright, walks straight in but gives just a little eye-wise, outrun made not born with, hard heel bite. Jane- stylish, sweepy dog, also walks straight in, natural outrunner, natural flanker, prefers not to bite but will) . I have a dog now, gorgeous dog that is a real sweetheart but I've stumbled in training her because she doesn't have, to me, a compatible working method. She needs too much help and input- I like a dog to mature fairly quickly and start showing me alot of stock sense and talent. She may have those things, but something about our relationship is off and I just can't get a good starting off point with her so she will be leaving soon and I will start again.

 

So, I don't know that I really favor a type as much as I favor any dog with talent, push and strong work ethic. I do best with dogs that are concerned with your opinion and probably would not be a good handler of a "Bute" type dog as I would not be able to be hard enough all the time. My Nellie was plenty pushy, but not hard and always wanted to work for me. An honest dog is important to me- which really ties in with the work ethic.

[SoloRiver]

My "user-friendly" dog is very stylish, can tend to be overly cautious but she is fun to handle because she is such a good listener. She can have issues with confidence that I've had to learn patience with and she's not the grittiest dog in the world. I'd have her over again though with a little more push. What I don't like about her is that she runs too wide when she's feeling too much pressure.

 

You just described Fly, except that instead of running too wide when she thinks the pressure is "icky" she gets really flanky and does the flopping back and forth thing to get away from the icky spot. This is extremely frustrating, but I try not to get upset about it because (1) I'm sure I had a hand in it and (2) getting frustrated does not help -- all it does is make her less confident and she gets worse.

 

I know what I think I like, but I know better what I don't like and/or have had a hard time working with in the past.

 

Solo is gritty and loves to fight sheep -- he is better at keeping them from doing something they really want to do (like eat) than catching them when they are fleeing. He is very hard-headed, and not particularly biddable, and needs a lot of work to be at his best. I don't have enough work for Solo to keep him at his best. Solo scares the crap out of sheep. He is not refined enough to be a trial dog, or indeed to be a chore dog for chores that need refinement. On the plus side, he will never quit and I really appreciate that about him. Every clinician who has seen him has liked him, and the person we train with now likes him (while recognizing that Solo is what he is and is never going to be the next Wisp), but he has never reached his potential with me because he is too difficult for me to handle, and I do not have a hill for him to work. I do now know if someone else would have been able to trial him, but if you needed, say, rams to be put through chutes or something, Solo's your man.

 

I would like a dog with Solo's grit who is willing to be very direct and forceful with stock if necessary, but without being as difficult to handle, or so willing (nay, eager) to use his teeth, and that remains workable even if he is not working every single day.

 

Fly is a novice handler's dream because she is so ridiculously easy to handle. She is classy, refined, and super stylish, with a wonderful feel for her sheep and a kind nature that puts them at ease. Gorgeous, natural outrun -- I like sending her to do a silent gather and watching as she makes that beautiful arc, lifts her sheep, and brings them back to me dead straight without a single whistle. She is also the kind of dog you can practically keep in the closet and dust off only for trials and still do well with, which is fun. Fly has too much eye and has always been someone sticky, and is getting stickier as she ages. She has quit on me before. She has a tendency to flank off pressure when she feels underconfident. She will not grip and has never even thought about gripping; I am not sure she knows she has teeth. She does not like working in close quarters and has been beaten by tough sheep on a number of occasions.

 

I would like a dog as easy to handle as Fly, with her nature, but more push. I don't want to have to beg my dog to walk up. There have been times that Fly failed to move sheep that needed to be moved (for example, because they were on the wrong side of a gate they needed to be on the other side of) and have had to put her up and go get the red dog to scare the sheep to where they needed to go.

 

If I could meld the two dogs I have, I'd have pretty much the perfect dog for me, I suspect. Someone asked me once if I would ever have bred Solo to Fly (assuming Solo still had testes at the time, which he didn't) and of course the answer was no, but if all the cards shook out right there is the chance I would have gotten some pretty neat dogs out of it. On the other hand, if the cards shook out wrong, I could theoretically end up with dogs that had Solo's temperament and Fly's energy level. I would only breed dogs like that if I wanted to sell dogs to people I didn't like very much.

[Nancy Bovee]

I am a total sucky "mom" handler! I am so discouraged. My dog works for experienced men, but it is just a matter of time before he starts working well, and then tries to get to the sheep without me.

 

A trainer I admire told me I had a "man's" dog. I believe him. I will not stop trying to earn that position of respect, however.

 

My biddable pup is so easy I'm probably going to ruin him by ignoring his minor flaws!

 

Agggghhhh! I've gone from perfect flanks to dives in four days!

 

Nancy