A difficult case for a dog trainer

[INU]

I've been visiting a dog training center every week the last several months and observe many dogs going through training - including simple obedience to behavior modifications. There is a young Aussie that is a perfect angel with anybody and any dogs, as long as her owner is not around. I was talking to her last night and she told me that she has another aussie from the same line/breeder that is so sweet and balanced. She used to be a therapy dog until she was diagnosed with hip dysplasia. She understands dog behaviors and have worked with dogs for a long time. There are dog owners who are clueless and cause their dogs to act overly protective or nervous when the owners are present. It doesn't look like that is the case for her. I have observed this owner and the dog past 6 weeks and I have not seen much progress. I got to see this dog without the owner in sight yesterday. I was stunned! It was a completely different dog. She was happy, focused and relaxed. As soon as the owner walks back in, she got tense and started growling at other dogs and some people. The dog is not fearful of people/dogs. She just think she has to protect the owner.

 

One of the trainers considered taking the dog and train herself. But it wouldn't work unless the owner is around. The only way is for both of them to come and continue working. They have been using gentle leader and sometimes chain collar - quick tug followed by reward when she listens.

 

If it were my dog, I wouldn't use the chain collar to correct her. I might take the dog for a walk without the owner. Have the owner walk along us at some point, if the dog is comfortable, eventually hand the lead over to her and continue walking together. Keep doing it for a short session over and over then add different variables slowly. Do you have any other ideas? I really feel for this owner. She works so hard with this dog.

[Lizmo]

That's really strange behavior. What do you think is causing this? Could she feel the need to guard her owner from others?

[kelpiegirl]

The owner needs to enforce that SHE is in charge. I have seen two approaches work. One, is to every time the dog begins it's over protective behaviour, have the owner leave. EVERY single time- even a little hint- ears going back, anything that will signify this overt behaviour. The other is for the owner to stay with the dog, and work at home and in class on that dog doing everything only as allowed by the owner. No going through doors first, no pulling on lead, basically, nothing in life is free. It is not up to the dog to protect the owner- if the dog thinks it has to, the owner needs to up her status in the pack- to show the dog that she can handle any issues.

 

 

I've been visiting a dog training center every week the last several months and observe many dogs going through training - including simple obedience to behavior modifications. There is a young Aussie that is a perfect angel with anybody and any dogs, as long as her owner is not around. I was talking to her last night and she told me that she has another aussie from the same line/breeder that is so sweet and balanced. She used to be a therapy dog until she was diagnosed with hip dysplasia. She understands dog behaviors and have worked with dogs for a long time. There are dog owners who are clueless and cause their dogs to act overly protective or nervous when the owners are present. It doesn't look like that is the case for her. I have observed this owner and the dog past 6 weeks and I have not seen much progress. I got to see this dog without the owner in sight yesterday. I was stunned! It was a completely different dog. She was happy, focused and relaxed. As soon as the owner walks back in, she got tense and started growling at other dogs and some people. The dog is not fearful of people/dogs. She just think she has to protect the owner.

 

One of the trainers considered taking the dog and train herself. But it wouldn't work unless the owner is around. The only way is for both of them to come and continue working. They have been using gentle leader and sometimes chain collar - quick tug followed by reward when she listens.

 

If it were my dog, I wouldn't use the chain collar to correct her. I might take the dog for a walk without the owner. Have the owner walk along us at some point, if the dog is comfortable, eventually hand the lead over to her and continue walking together. Keep doing it for a short session over and over then add different variables slowly. Do you have any other ideas? I really feel for this owner. She works so hard with this dog.

[Root Beer]

That is a tough case. I have to wonder if the hip issues don't contribute to this behavior - especially if the dog didn't do it before.

 

Personally, I would choose a program of desensitization with a dog like this. I would do some clicker work outside of class and then reintroduce the dog to the social situation on the outskirts. I would start in the parking lot, if necessary. I would be looking to condition the dog to look to me instead of acting out toward the other dogs/people. If the dog reacted, I would take a step back.

 

There's a new book out called "Control Unleashed" and there's a game in there called "There's a Dog in your Face" and another called "Look at That". I would probably work those two games once the dog could be on the outskirts of the room without reacting to the other dogs. Through those two games, it is possible with some dogs to condition a brand new (calm) response to the "triggers" that set off a reaction. I'm using it right now and it's quite amazing.

 

Like you, I would not use a choke chain. That could actually "validate" the dog's reaction rather than deter it. Other dogs near my owner = discomfort - stronger reaction is needed.

[bcnewe2]

I know this sounds bad but I think I'd be rehoming the dog. There are lots of different methods that might work but when push comes to shove I think most dogs revert back to behaviors that they are comfortable with. This dog doesn't have issues with others, only the owner. So it would not be risking the reverting back part with a new owner.

I find it interesting that the lady got another dog from the same breeder where the hip dysplasia came from. Maybe it's a different breeding altogether. If so, how could she know she was getting the same even tempered sweet dog from before?

Just my 2 cents

Kristen

[SincereArtisan]

I the contrary, Bcnewe2, I think the dog's reactions towards people/other dogs around it's "owner" would probably fall into place for it's new "owner" as well, one that other individual is the sole provider of food/affection. Perhaps it would only vary if the new owner set some pretty strict ground rules from the get-go, but to me it sounds like the current owner has let this thing get a little out of hand before waking up and realizing its time to DO something about this.

 

I like the suggestion of walking away every time it happens. But, to make it a little more unpleasant for the dog, perhaps they should keep a covered-up crate in a secluded area as well. That way, when the dog reacts, the owner leaves, and the dog is placed in the crate where he cannot see anything, anyone, especially his owner, and is left there for a good 5 minutes or so. Sometimes a solitary time-out gets the point across. I also think it would be best to start with these approaching dogs/strangers further away at first, then gradually working them closer...

[nancy in AZ]

There is a young Aussie that is a perfect angel with anybody and any dogs, as long as her owner is not around.

 

This describes the way Boo (my Aussie) is/ used to be (though Boo never had a problem with other dogs being around me). He's made significant progress in the year plus that I've had him. Most of that came from a protocol set by a vet/behaviorist, along with a combination of psychotropic meds (I recently cut his dose in half due to the progress he's made, and hope to wean him off completely) and making introductions to new people in a way he could handle without feeling he needed to protect me. He will, however still feel the need to protect my home when I'm not around. Lately, when I tell him to quiet down if a stranger comes to the door or the yard he listens and backs off. I noticed his most significant progress just over this passed summer. I still always start introductions with his muzzle on just to be safe, and I suspect he'll still react under certain circumstances so if he's just met someone and is doing well, I always tell them not to gesticulate wildly with their hands or hand me an large items etc. By the way, Boo is a naturally submissive dog.

[Mojo]

I know this sounds bad but I think I'd be rehoming the dog. There are lots of different methods that might work but when push comes to shove I think most dogs revert back to behaviors that they are comfortable with. This dog doesn't have issues with others, only the owner. So it would not be risking the reverting back part with a new owner.

I find it interesting that the lady got another dog from the same breeder where the hip dysplasia came from. Maybe it's a different breeding altogether. If so, how could she know she was getting the same even tempered sweet dog from before?

Just my 2 cents

Kristen

 

Hi, Kristen--I am so sorry, but I have to disagree (very respectfully) here. The dog would just become protective of its new owner. My Mojo is a very confident dog--likely a middle-ranking beta-male type--and he is extremely protective of me and my Bichon, my house, and my car, and he was that way the very first day I met him. When I am not around, he doesn't bark at all. At least in our case, it has nothing to do with status; I am neither a fearful nor a permissive kind of person, and Mojo will instantly obey any command I issue in any type of distracting situation, he never gets anything at home without working for it, and he even lets my tiny Bichon push him around and take his coveted resources when she wants them (bed, food, water, etc), because I enforce her right to do so.

 

What I DO think is going on is that he is part Aussie, and in Aussies, particularly from working lines, protectiveness is an established breed trait that was actually selected for. If Mojo isn't part Aussie...well, then he's just protective for no good reason, and lack of early socialization probably has a heck of a lot to do with it. In general, because of the known tendency to guard/protect, it is absolutely crucial that you go over the top socializing Aussie pups--much more than most breeds--IF you want to have an adult that can accept new situations and strangers calmly. If this owner doesn't want a protective dog, she shouldn't have an Aussie, IMHO!! I understand that her previous dog from the same breeder was delightful, but I am guessing that her success with that dog turned out to be a happy accident, as extremely friendly behavior to everyone/everything isn't really characteristic of an Aussie!

 

Mojo is highly alert to his surroundings, and is suspicious of all strangers until properly introduced. Even that small level of comfort with people outside of our immediate household was a hard-won victory for me (he initially was suspicious of everyone, period). Since I found him as an adult, we sadly missed the key puppy socialization period, so it has lately seemed that all I ever do is try to make up for those lost years by constantly trying to desensitize and counter-condition him to as many new stimuli as possible while trying not to put him over his threshold of comfort. Depending on the level of threat (from low to high), Mojo will 1) stare, 2) bark and growl in a high-pitched tone, 3) advance very slowly and growl in a very low, rumbling tone. I have only known him to do #3 on one occasion, when I was actually being threatened by someone who tried to attack me in a public park. Mojo was on a leash, but he slowly, calmly, and quietly positioned himself between me and the guy, lowered his head, and began that ominous, rumbling growl that I have never heard the likes of since. Right then, I knew that Mojo truly meant business. If that man had laid one finger on me, I am certain Mojo would have launched himself at the guy, totally prepared to bite. Luckily, we were able to escape the situation without anyone getting hurt.

 

I also regularly see Mojo protect my Bichon from other dogs; in the dog park, if a dog tries to hump her and I cannot get there in time, Mojo will run up and BARK right in the dog's face without touching him. The second the offending dog complies and starts to disengage, Mojo will slide his body between the dog and my Bichon, and stay there until the other dog has gone away, barking again if necessary. He will also try to break up dogs that are playing too roughly by sliding between them in a similar manner and barking. One owner even THANKED me when a huge Husky was bullying her Cocker Spaniel puppy--Mojo got between them and told the Husky to back off, and the Husky listened. If I choose to call him off, Mojo WILL instantly call off, but he looks very surprised as he comes trotting back to me. Maintaining order on the planet is apparently the job that he feels he is supposed to do. Again, I just wish to emphasize that trying to train or bully this out of the dog is going completely against his personality and genetics--I think you can only hope to modify it to an extent, and if this owner doesn't want this kind of behavior at all, I think she has involved herself with the wrong breed.

 

After talking with many Aussie owners with similar problems over the last few months, because we DO have to live with our protective dogs in a modern society (trust me, I can't WAIT to move to a country ranch where I might see one stranger every month or so), the general consensus, as explained to me, was that when it comes to protectiveness, you have to take a slightly different approach than regular counter-conditioning and desensitization. In order to modify natural protective behavior, it is a matter of building trust, not exerting status. Exerting status (which means, to me, telling the dog to be quiet and to cease and desist his protective behavior without question/argument), only frustrates the dog....after all, he IS only doing his job, and if you ignore/suppress his well-intended warnings without explanation or action, if he is confident enough, he only will think that you are *wrong,* but can't do anything about it; after you do that enough times, the backlash is that his trust in you and your judgment begins to lessen. Ideally, you have to convince the dog that you are not only 1) aware of what it is he is threatened by, but 2) you are more than capable of dealing with it without his help. #2 is obviously the biggest challenge.

 

For us, this meant that if, e.g., a dog was walking by our house and Mojo started alarm-barking to let me know, I would look at Mojo, acknowledge his barking ("What is it, Mojo?" in an upbeat, yet concerned tone), physically go down to the gate and make a big show of "pretending" to peer outside the fence, and then make an equally big fuss about turning away and dismissing the passing dog ("Oh, it's just a dog,") and then returning to Mojo to praise him and thank him for letting me know about the evil passing dog, and finally returning to whatever I was doing in the yard. You should have seen Mojo's shocked face the first time I did it. When I came back to thank him for warning me, he puffed himself up with so much pride, grinning from ear to ear. You would think that this would only ENCOURAGE protective behavior, but in fact, after hundreds of repetitions, he will actually let many things pass by without barking if he sees me looking up at it first (note: he will actually LOOK at me to see if I have seen it!), and if he knows that I haven't acknowledged the possible threat, he will alarm-bark only once or twice to alert me, and now all I have to do is look up, say, "Oh, it's nothing....thank you!" in a happy tone of voice, and Mojo will actually STOP barking and be satisfied!!! Before I learned this, I had been trying to redirect him (turn around, completely ignore the stimulus, put him in a down, tell him to stay, click/treat, etc.), and while this works for things like on-leash walking, when it came to territorial protectiveness/aggression, Mojo would only get more and more frustrated and anxious, as if he were saying, "Why on earth are you putting me in a stay and feeding me? Don't you SEE that a big man is coming towards our house? Aren't you going to DO anything about it? Arrrgggh, he's still coming closer!" He would always willingly obey me and do the requested down and stay, and nervously gobble treats, but his stress levels would obviously continue to increase, rather than decrease. Now, when full-out fights break out in the dog park, I calmly acknowledge the fight, and can easily put Mojo in a down-stay (a few times it happened to be less than five yards away) without a leash or any harsh words and have him patiently wait until things get under control, all the while other owners are frantically trying to chase/catch their dogs...Mojo will just calmly lie there and gaze up at my face, waiting to be released, confident that I have things handled properly. So again, I think trust is everything, and it goes both ways--I trust Mojo, as well. He's warned me about something burning on the stove, coyotes loose on the street, cats in the yard--i.e., the stupid human has finally realized that when he is barking, there really IS a genuine reason--he doesn't just bark because he is bored. These dogs desperately want to work with you and for you, but they are also smart enough and confident enough to know what is *really* going on. You have to prove to them that you're worthy!!!

 

I hope that helps....

[G. Festerling]

Mojo, interesting indeed. And it makes total sense to me. As odd as it seems at first. I had the same thing told to me before and saw it working just not how it ended up. Dog and owner moved. Thanks for posting it in such detail.

[bcnewe2]

Ok but what I was thinking is that this is a dog that has been in training for at least the same amount of time INU's been observing. She says its fine around all other people and dogs. The dog gets growly even if its owner is watching (at least I thought I read that) so seems to me that the owner is the problem.

When you have a dog like that you are bound to get/be very nervous, it's quite hard to put those feelings away. I would say they are as much unconscious as conscious.

Yes you can consciously try to control your nerves or worrisome feelings but again, in high stress I think people like dogs are likely to revert back to original feelings associated with that situation. So it's like a round robin game. With a new owner there wouldn’t be the same vibes going towards the dog.

 

Several months is pretty long to affect some kind of change in behaviors. It hasn't. INU has said that the trainer wanted to take the dog and train it. OK but can she do that for the owner too? I’m not saying she’s a bad owner only maybe not the right one for this dog.

 

Maybe the trainer can take the dog and see if the same type behaviors start to pop up if the dog starts to bond with the trainer. That might help the owner see her own issues more clearly.

 

I'm not knocking anyone’s idea for trying different ways to make it work. or even saying it can’t work. I just think in the situation as I read it, there hasn't been any progress made. So I’m suggesting opting for the easier or less hard way out.

 

I think it was in the HrGr posts that someone pointed out sometimes there are dogs or owners that just don't work with certain situations and it's not a bad thing to look for anther owner when the current one isn't successful.

 

I own a fearful dog, it took years for her to become a success story. But I don’t know how long I’d have kept trying it if I was seriously afraid of someone getting hurt.

 

Raven’s situation was less difficult for me to work with because I only took her to places where we were working sheep and that took precedence over her fear for at least the time she was on sheep so she came around to going because she always got the ultimate reward, sheep. Eventually she lost most of her fears with age and management but in a certain situation she’d be right back in fear mode. We are lucky that I get to easily control her environment with no losses for either of us. If she were my only dog or one I wanted to be my “go everywhere” dog, she’d not be the right choice. It would be a disservice to both of us if I pushed her into that life.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Kristen

[Root Beer]

when it comes to protectiveness, you have to take a slightly different approach than regular counter-conditioning and desensitization. In order to modify natural protective behavior, it is a matter of building trust, not exerting status. Exerting status (which means, to me, telling the dog to be quiet and to cease and desist his protective behavior without question/argument), only frustrates the dog....after all, he IS only doing his job, and if you ignore/suppress his well-intended warnings without explanation or action, if he is confident enough, he only will think that you are *wrong,* but can't do anything about it; after you do that enough times, the backlash is that his trust in you and your judgment begins to lessen. Ideally, you have to convince the dog that you are not only 1) aware of what it is he is threatened by, but 2) you are more than capable of dealing with it without his help. #2 is obviously the biggest challenge.

 

For us, this meant that if, e.g., a dog was walking by our house and Mojo started alarm-barking to let me know, I would look at Mojo, acknowledge his barking ("What is it, Mojo?" in an upbeat, yet concerned tone), physically go down to the gate and make a big show of "pretending" to peer outside the fence, and then make an equally big fuss about turning away and dismissing the passing dog ("Oh, it's just a dog,") and then returning to Mojo to praise him and thank him for letting me know about the evil passing dog, and finally returning to whatever I was doing in the yard. You should have seen Mojo's shocked face the first time I did it. When I came back to thank him for warning me, he puffed himself up with so much pride, grinning from ear to ear. You would think that this would only ENCOURAGE protective behavior, but in fact, after hundreds of repetitions, he will actually let many things pass by without barking if he sees me looking up at it first (note: he will actually LOOK at me to see if I have seen it!), and if he knows that I haven't acknowledged the possible threat, he will alarm-bark only once or twice to alert me, and now all I have to do is look up, say, "Oh, it's nothing....thank you!" in a happy tone of voice, and Mojo will actually STOP barking and be satisfied!!! Before I learned this, I had been trying to redirect him (turn around, completely ignore the stimulus, put him in a down, tell him to stay, click/treat, etc.), and while this works for things like on-leash walking, when it came to territorial protectiveness/aggression, Mojo would only get more and more frustrated and anxious, as if he were saying, "Why on earth are you putting me in a stay and feeding me? Don't you SEE that a big man is coming towards our house? Aren't you going to DO anything about it? Arrrgggh, he's still coming closer!" He would always willingly obey me and do the requested down and stay, and nervously gobble treats, but his stress levels would obviously continue to increase, rather than decrease. Now, when full-out fights break out in the dog park, I calmly acknowledge the fight, and can easily put Mojo in a down-stay (a few times it happened to be less than five yards away) without a leash or any harsh words and have him patiently wait until things get under control, all the while other owners are frantically trying to chase/catch their dogs...Mojo will just calmly lie there and gaze up at my face, waiting to be released, confident that I have things handled properly. So again, I think trust is everything, and it goes both ways--I trust Mojo, as well. He's warned me about something burning on the stove, coyotes loose on the street, cats in the yard--i.e., the stupid human has finally realized that when he is barking, there really IS a genuine reason--he doesn't just bark because he is bored. These dogs desperately want to work with you and for you, but they are also smart enough and confident enough to know what is *really* going on. You have to prove to them that you're worthy!!!

 

I hope that helps....

 

Not sure what you're defining as desentization and counter conditioning, but that process doesn't involve exerting status in any way shape or form! And there are different ways to go about it than putting the dog in a stay and feeding - that's one way that's appropriate for some dogs in some situations, but there are other ways. In fact, what you describe above was a process of desensitization and counter conditioning. And the most important component of good desensitization and counter conditioning is building trust! It can't be done with a reactive dog unless trust is built.

 

What you did was much like the "Look at That" game that I referenced in my post above.

 

Interestingly, used correctly, a clicker can be a bridge between a reactive dog and the owner to instill trust.

 

Back when Speedy still couldn't even deal with other dogs looking at him, we used to sit outside the training center on a bench. Whenever someone would pass by - we would sit at a comfortable distance from the dogs for him, I would click while he was looking at the other dog calmly and move forward to pass him the treat. Of course, loading the clicker and doing some casual clicker training to teach him what the click means was all done at home previously. I never expected him to break his gaze from the other dog.

 

Soon, he was able to look away once he heard the click. So he would see dog - click - turn to me for treat - turn back to look at dog again. What that has become is much like you described. He would see the dog and would be alert (gotta watch that dog just in case . . .). The click came to mean "I see it, I've got it, you don't need to worry about it". Eventually I didn't even need the clicker. When he is apprehensive around strange dogs, he will look to me, I acknowledge that I see whatever it is and he can function.

 

Nowadays I can put him in a stay and have him look at me if there is something I don't want him to see because the groundwork has been set and he trusts that I have everything under control, but I never expected that in the early stages of this process.

 

Of course, one doesn't have to use a clicker to do this, but, used correctly, it speeds up the process and it's very handy for a reactive dog that is going to be working around other dogs in a class setting. There are other benefits to using clicker with a reactive dog in general, but that's the short answer!

[Mojo]

Mojo, interesting indeed. And it makes total sense to me. As odd as it seems at first. I had the same thing told to me before and saw it working just not how it ended up. Dog and owner moved. Thanks for posting it in such detail.

Thank you for the kind words......it's nice to hear my thoughts validated, every now and then!!! I just felt obligated to write all that out because I feel like Mojo and I have been, and continue to be, in the same situation, but we are slowly improving, little by little. I really hope that what I wrote may be used to help the Aussie and her owner...

 

 

 

 

Ok but what I was thinking is that this is a dog that has been in training for at least the same amount of time INU's been observing.

Hi, Kristen. Thanks for the reply...well, from INU's original post, it seems that while she has been observing the class for months, she has only seen this particular dog-and-owner combination for the past six weeks, and to rehome a dog that has been in training for ONLY SIX WEEKS? Yikes, six weeks. Mojo had barely even shown his true personality in the first six weeks he was with me. That's hardly any time at all for an observable change in behavior, particularly if the training class is a highly charged environment! Again, from INU's post, I am not even certain that the dog is in training FOR the protective behavior specifically--it sounded more like a general training center that does both obedience and behavior modification, which is why, perhaps, there has been little improvement in the protective behavior.....? I wish INU would give us an update, but I know that this thread has been in and out of MIA for some days, now! Again, we really do not know the true specifics of the case, and what has been tried, and for how long, and how serious the problem is. As far as we know, there is only growling....heck, Mojo growls when he is HAPPY, so, IMHO, growling alone without any other information about posture, circumstances, other body language, etc., is apropos of nothing.

 

 

 

 

She says its fine around all other people and dogs. The dog gets growly even if its owner is watching (at least I thought I read that) so seems to me that the owner is the problem. When you have a dog like that you are bound to get/be very nervous, it's quite hard to put those feelings away. I would say they are as much unconscious as conscious. Yes you can consciously try to control your nerves or worrisome feelings but again, in high stress I think people like dogs are likely to revert back to original feelings associated with that situation. So it's like a round robin game. With a new owner there wouldn’t be the same vibes going towards the dog.

I am not sure of the significance you are attributing to whether or not the dog growls if the owner is watching? If the dog is being protective, obviously, it would be protecting its owner, and so she would have to be present for the growling...perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean.

 

In my case, Mojo has two separate sets of problems--leash aggression and territorial/protective aggression--and although they are related, they manifest in slightly different ways. For example, when on-leash, if I do absolutely nothing, Mojo always reacts by lunging/growling/barking, every single time, to the sight of other dogs and certain men, nearly all joggers (but particularly men), and bicyclists. As I am a through-and-through dog/horse/animal lover, and most of my friends actually ARE men, and, in general, I feel more comfortable with having male friends than female friends, I hardly see why I should have any reason to fear dogs or men either consciously or subconsciously, and yet, Mojo finds them threatening, seemingly independent of me. Mojo was leash-aggressive the very first day that I found him--I was standing in my driveway with Mojo on a leash, discussing with my BF what on earth I was going to do with this new dog, when another dog walked by our house and Mojo lunged forward, furiously throwing himself to the end of the leash, growling and barking. As friendly as he had been up to that point to me, it certainly was the last thing I was expecting, and so it took me completely by surprise...but he did it all on his own without any motivation from me, since I hadn't even seen the other dog make its approach.

 

I have never had occasion to have a stranger walk him on-leash for me, so it is hard to say if he would react or not, but I suspect he would--I just think that something about being on leash frustrates him terribly (so-called "barrier frustration"), and any underlying insecurities he has are multiplied by being on a leash. Please note, however, that in regards to his leash aggression with DOGS only, I think Mojo falls into the category of what Jean Donaldson calls a "Tarzan"-type personality. After observing him these last ten months, I have concluded that Mojo does not bark out of fear (i.e., he is NOT fear-aggressive), but because he wants to see the other dog so badly that he becomes frustrated to the point of overt aggression if he cannot get there fast enough, or is blocked from going to see the dog by the leash. I have encountered a few, brave souls who have actually stood their ground when approached by my rabidly snarling dog (usually, they have a reactive dog of their own at home and they recognize that his incredibly noisy displays aren't really aggression...because, remember, a TRULY aggressive dog is totally silent--he has already made up his mind that he is going to bite, so why should he issue any warning barks/growls?) and we have found that as soon as Mojo is allowed to approach these dogs, he immediately stops lunging/barking and eagerly starts to sniff the butt of the other dog, wagging his tail and wanting to play, bouncing up and down into play-bows, although of course he is still growling all the while--Mojo growls when he is happy/sad/excited/upset! That is how he talks, with just subtle differences in intonation! It's not always possible to convince strangers of that fact, though.

 

Thus, it is sometimes hard to tease out the times that his barking/growling are the result of the barrier frustration and the times when he is being protective of me, but I think there are clear differences in his demeanor and the pitch of his voice. Plus, he is only occasionally protective of me with other dogs (see below), and almost always is protective of me regarding other humans when leashed...i.e., he has never lunged/barked to go see a friendly human stranger to solicit petting--he always just eyes them suspiciously (while barking/growling) until they pass, if I stand there and do nothing to redirect him, of course. Even when properly introduced and once convinced that the stranger is not a threat, he doesn't shrink away or duck his head if they try to pet him (again, he is not fearful), and he doesn't even look uncomfortable--he mostly just ignores the attention, and often times, he will just keep walking forward as if no one had touched him at all (we have inadvertently offended a lot of well-intentioned dog lovers that way).

 

On the other hand, Mojo is completely happy to interact with all other people (including men!) AND dogs (male/female, old/young, large/small, fixed/unfixed, any color) as long as he is OFF-leash, even if they approach him purposefully and directly, whether they try to pet him or not, and even whether or not I am immediately present (though I can't go too far off, because he would rather be with me than with other dogs/people, and sticks pretty close to my side in the off-leash park).

 

Here's the weirdest thing of all: when he is OFF-leash, Mojo actually seems to PREFER men, and anyone who is CARRYING A LEASH, as much as leashes complicate his life when he is on one!!! He will trot along next to these people in a perfect heel and sniff the leash in their hands, and even allows himself to be petted. I've even seen him give face kisses to strangers in these situations!!! I have a bona fide Crazy Dog.

 

Even when off-leash, however, if Mojo feels that a particular person or dog is threatening me (say, a big dog rudely mugs me for food and plants both paws on my chest), Mojo will rush over to intervene, and he is growling and barking as loudly as he possibly can. Obviously, I am watching. Once the dog jumps off me, Mojo is satisfied, and has no lingering issues with that dog, and will even sometimes go off to play with it happily. In this case, I'm sure you are right in that Mojo senses that I do NOT like dogs that jump up on me, and so he is accommodating my silent and subconscious wishes by getting the dog off of me. If, however, I make a big show out of accepting the dog (as annoying as it is for having jumped up on me) and I pet it, coo over it, etc., Mojo will visibly relax and allow the dog to play with me and has no further issues, but if the dog does jump up again, Mojo still considers that unacceptable. In no way, however, am I anxious, intimidated, or fearful in these situations--if there is one thing I am NOT afraid of, it's a dog, of any size/shape/sex. In any case, this is why I think that Mojo is not really a "resource-guarder," even though he is protective--i.e., if *I* decide to play with another dog, Mojo has no problems with it. Further, I can tell him to move from where he is sleeping, to leave his dinner, and I can take away his toys, etc., with no complaints from him whatsoever. He will even calmly and willingly back off on command--I don't have to grab the toys away from him. I can even take coveted bits of meaty bones right out of his mouth (when he has bitten off a piece that I think is too big, I can reach right in there and fish it out, and he doesn't do *anything* but open his mouth wide and look at me like, "Why'd you do that? I was planning on puncturing the lining of my stomach with that."

 

If my BF tries to do any of the above, however, Mojo WILL growl, and the BF has told me that Mojo will do this even if I am not at home. Interestingly, Mojo also jumps up on my BF when he comes home from work, but he never jumps up on me, although he is just as excited, and likely more so. Note: my BF is not, in any way, shape, or form, a dog person, and he does not participate in Mojo's training at ALL, much to my chagrin. Although he is the last person who would admit it, I think he does harbor some fear of Mojo, and Mojo DOES pick up on that. Don't worry, though, I am working on training the BF, as well!!!

 

On that note, I have noticed that Mojo *always* reacts more quickly and with much more intensity if whoever it is he is facing (dog/person) is overtly afraid of him (from what I can see of their facial expressions, body language, or what they say to me), or otherwise doesn't like him for some reason--Mojo is very sensitive to negative emotions, it seems. If the other person/dog is confident/happy, these are the kinds of strangers he goes wiggling up to greet once he is close enough--so it is not *everyone* that pisses him off, but admittedly, people/dogs who are NOT intimidated by a lunging, growling, barking Mojo are in short supply, in my experience.

 

Here are some additional interesting observations: I have noticed that if I leave him alone in the car, and sneak off some distance to watch (say, into a store, and watch him through the store window), Mojo couldn't care less if someone walks up to the car or around the car, or gets into the car next to mine in the lot--all he does is stare off into the direction I have gone, completely frozen in that posture. I have seen a friendly dog person wave to him through the window and say "hello" in this way, and while Mojo did wag his tail a bit, he still didn't break his position and continued looking to see where I had gone. IF, however, someone actually walks up to the car and PEERS INTO THE WINDOW very closely, or otherwise touches the car, Mojo will break and lunge at the window, furiously barking and growling. From all of this, I have concluded that the margin of stranger proximity with which he is comfortable grows considerably larger if I am not around, but he is nevertheless still protective of my/his possessions (like my car) even if I am not in it--he just is much MORE protective, and it takes a lot less for him to react, if I happen to be in the car with him. Drive-through fast food windows, for example, used to make him very upset, until he recognized that he would get some hamburger as a result of my interactions with a friendly stranger through the car window, and then he didn't mind so much...but if said drive-through cashier tries to say "hello" or otherwise looks at him/addresses him directly, he will still growl/bark at them.

 

Thus, while I am not at all discounting what you are saying about owner anticipation or anxiety being transferred to the dog, precisely because I DO think that what you say is true the vast majority of the time, as well as the fact that Mojo is particularly adept at sensing my own emotions and knowing what I want of him even without saying anything, at least in OUR case, I don't think that my conscious emotions are much of a factor when it comes to his protectiveness, because I know that I am not afraid of oncoming people/dogs in a conscious sense--I'm pretty outgoing!

 

Now, regarding possible unconscious senses, I don't think they play much of a role for Mojo, either. Here's another example: I can be gardening and otherwise occupied with yanking weeds out of the ground when Mojo will suddenly race down the hill and sprint to the bamboo, barking his fool head off--obviously, I had no idea that someone had started to walk by, as he can hear/smell whatever it is long before I can. I think Mojo is just protective, period, and once he decided that he was my dog (which, again, happened almost instantly when he first met me), he has always been like that with me. I suspect he was drawn to me because I am confident and outgoing and a happy kind of person, but I cannot claim that as fact. I often wonder why he did NOT aggress to me that day, since I was, obviously, a stranger at the time.....another great Mojo mystery I will never solve. I am still eagerly waiting for them to roll out the new, expanded breed analysis test, btw!!

 

I certainly cannot, however, speak for the owner in question--perhaps her emotions ARE a large factor in her case, but from what INU said, it sounded like she was pretty calm and not nervous at all; however, the fact that she seems to be surprised by the idea that her new Aussie is at ALL protective tells me that she is not very familiar with Aussies, and as I stated numerous times in my original post, if she wants a completely non-protective dog, perhaps this dog is not suitable for her, and in fact, most Aussies would not be suitable for her. In that case, perhaps the dog SHOULD be rehomed....but if the owner wants to put in the effort to modify the dog's behavior to a point where they can live together happily, she should not be criticized for being incapable of rehabilitating a reactively protective/aggressive dog (i.e., no easy task, even for the most experienced professional!!) if she has the 1) patience, 2) time, and 3) dedication to attempt it--the necessary skills and techniques can be learned with help, self-education, and trial/error.

 

I own a fearful dog, it took years for her to become a success story. But I don’t know how long I’d have kept trying it if I was seriously afraid of someone getting hurt.

Kristen, I congratulate you on your rehabilitation of your fearful dog...really, you should be incredibly proud of yourself and how far your dog has come. From what I have heard and what I have read, I think training a fearful dog to overcome her fears is a MUCH more difficult global endeavor than what I am going through with Mojo, whose problems really stem from the fact that he is very controlling and overconfident--AND thus, he is a great pain in my rear from time to time--but he is not fearful in the least, and though I describe his antics as "aggression," I think consistent use of the term "reactive" would be much more appropriate. I really don't consider him to be aggressive. If anything, he is DEFENSIVE. What he really suffers from is too much energy combined with a too-bold, too-ebullient, too-pushy personality, and although *I* know that, and people who know *us* know that, to the average non-dog-savvy stranger, Mojo is the most aggressive dog they have ever seen in three counties, although he has never even seriously tried to bite anyone or anything since he's been with me, and in fact, has gotten bitten himself and didn't even bite back!

 

I do, however, totally agree with your last statement; I know that I persevere because I really am NOT all that concerned that someone is going to get hurt as long as I remain vigilant, and that, in itself, is no small amount of responsibility. Nevertheless, I am confident that Mojo has great bite inhibition, and unless someone were actually to attack me physically, as nearly happened in the park one day, I don't think Mojo would ever be forced over his bite threshold. Is he capable of biting, though? Sure, what dog isn't? I said all my opinions on THAT touchy subject in my "This is the beginning of the end" thread about yet another overprotective Aussie.....

[Mojo]

Not sure what you're defining as desentization and counter conditioning, but that process doesn't involve exerting status in any way shape or form!

Hi, Kristine--thanks for the reply, and so sorry for the confusion. If you read the following snippet from my post, hopefully you will see what I meant:

In order to modify natural protective behavior, it is a matter of building trust, not exerting status. Exerting status (which means, to me, telling the dog to be quiet and to cease and desist his protective behavior without question/argument), only frustrates the dog....

With that in mind, I tried to distinguish amongst 1) what an above poster seemed to recommend (i.e., having the owner be in charge, or what I chose to redefine as "exerting status") versus 2) desensitization and counter-conditioning using a clicker and treats while leash walking versus 3) what I described above as being recommended by Aussie people in territorial/protective aggression situations.

 

 

 

 

And there are different ways to go about it than putting the dog in a stay and feeding - that's one way that's appropriate for some dogs in some situations, but there are other ways. In fact, what you describe above was a process of desensitization and counter conditioning. And the most important component of good desensitization and counter conditioning is building trust! It can't be done with a reactive dog unless trust is built.

I agree completely. In no way did I mean to imply that I was not practicing desensitization and counter-conditioning, nor that desensitization and counter-conditioning do not build trust; I mainly tried to indicate that the actual techniques I use for this particular problem (protectiveness) are just slightly different than the techniques I use for leash-walking, although they all fall within the realm of desensitization and counter-conditioning, as the underlying positive-reinforcement-only principle is the same: the dog learns with each subsequent positive experience that there is nothing truly threatening him/me.

 

Like I said, however, with territorial/protective aggression, the big change that seemed to make the real difference for Mojo was my elaborate "show" of physically going to investigate the source of the stimulus AHEAD of Mojo (which is not practical for leash-walking), and then my turning back and visibly/audibly dismissing it so that he can see me doing it, and then praising him for alerting me. Since I don't have to worry about him attacking anyone since he can't get out of the yard/car, he is always off-leash in these situations. While sometimes I do use a click/treat, he does seem highly rewarded just with praise for my having recognized his alerting efforts, mainly because I think he views protection as his job, whereas passing dogs/people while out walking are just obstacles in his path. It's the same with agility--he doesn't find the obstacles inherently rewarding, so he is clicked/treated for a great agility performance, and that, in turn, makes him like agility more.

 

I also recognized that the clicker alone wasn't effective enough in territorial/protective aggression situations because of the way our front yard is set up: there simply is no "middle ground" or buffer zone between being safely inside the house way up on our hill (where he is easily redirected) and way down in the grassy area of our front yard near the street, so there was no way to break the behavior down into less stressful chunks for him. Thus, I had to come up with something, or else he could never set foot in our own yard, as there are dogs/people constantly provoking him by walking past the house at ALL hours of the day and night. The entire front yard is enclosed by a 4' stone wall topped by a few additional feet of hedge, and both are backed by 30' bamboo, so the yard is essentially impenetrable and affords almost total visual privacy, but because the sidewalk is right on the other side of all that fencing, Mojo obviously can still hear/smell passersby even if he can't see them--and perhaps is even more stimulated/frustrated because he can't see them. Unfortunately, there is no real "back" yard--it is just a deck built into a steep rock hillside that abuts our neighbor's property, so the front yard is our only option for training agility at home. Further, our yard is entirely and very steeply uphill except for the very small, usable flat, grassy area right by the front bamboo, so if we happen to be working on weave poles entries in the yard and a dog/person walks by, we essentially become trapped down by the fence since there is nowhere for us to run, and Mojo certainly can't hear the clicker over the din of his subsequent barking and growling once he has become excited--i.e., if he has already pressed himself up against the bamboo with his back towards me, straining to peer through the trees and howling his displeasure, there is *no* way he is ever going to turn around for a treat in those instances without my forcibly dragging him out of the bamboo, which of course is a very bad idea. At least for us, the physical movement of placing myself in front of him and showing him that I have identified the possible intruder and decided that there was no threat, seemed to be the only thing that could convince him to let it go.

 

 

 

 

What you did was much like the "Look at That" game that I referenced in my post above.

I own and LOVE Control Unleashed, and I meant to say earlier that I think it is an excellent, clearly-written book that is full of hands-on games and practical tips, and it is extremely applicable for reactive agility dogs in training, like Mojo. For leash walking, we, too, now practice what is essentially the "Look at that" game, where he is clicked/treated, dozens of times, if necessary, for each encounter where he looks at the stimulus, looks back at me, etc., and now he will offer the look (just barely enough of a head movement to be considered a "look!") just to get a click/treat, so I think we are doing very well overall (I can see a clear trajectory of positive progress, although we have good days and bad days, but the good days definitely have outnumbered the bad for many months, now).

 

I just didn't describe our leash-walking techniques in detail in my original post because it didn't seem to be necessary to answer the problem of the Aussie in question, and I'm sorry for confusing things by saying that I put him in a sit/down/stay and have him look at me--I only said that because we USED to do that for leash walking, per Emma Parsons' methods, and I initially tried to do that for the territorial protectiveness, as well, but I only mentioned it to illustrate how that didn't work as well as the "Aussie" method. Being placed in and forced to hold a stationary position only frustrated him more, for both leash-walking encounters and for the territorial protectiveness situations; however, being free to stand, walk around, or sit, as he pleased, as long as he kept looking at the stimulus and back at me, was definitely the best way to go for us. I only wish that there were such CU classes offered around here...would you believe that in ALL of Los Angeles, where there are millions of dogs, there isn't even a SINGLE "Feisty-Fido"-type class (e.g., a Patricia McConnell- or Pam Dennison-style class) geared towards the slow, step-by-baby step rehabilitation of reactive dogs using solely positive reinforcement? The closest one is in San Diego county (sadly, 2+ hours away, one-way)...I have personally contacted four different trainers, and each was surprised to realize that neither they, nor any of their colleagues, knew of such a class. No wonder L.A.'s shelters are SO FULL.....it's all DW territory up here--the number of people you see alpha-rolling their dogs in the park on any given day is truly disturbing.

 

 

 

 

Interestingly, used correctly, a clicker can be a bridge between a reactive dog and the owner to instill trust.

Again, I agree completely. In all other areas of my interaction with Mojo besides the protectiveness issue, we are clicker-training fanatics. He is so good at free-shaping now, but when I first started with him, you should have seen how confused and surprised he was at being asked to offer behaviors on his own.

 

 

 

 

Eventually I didn't even need the clicker. When he is apprehensive around strange dogs, he will look to me, I acknowledge that I see whatever it is and he can function.

That is really great to hear! Congratulations on all of your hard work! I still carry a clicker/treats on all walks, just in case, but I don't always have to use it, as our leash walking is almost reliably good in certain situations, but not in others; nevertheless, we still have a come a long way (i.e., we can sometimes have a walk without any incidents at all, which I had scarcely hoped for in the beginning), so I am proud of our progress. All of Mojo's setbacks, btw, occur because I sometimes get too overconfident about his ability to handle certain situations when he has been doing well for a while, and so I test him before he's ready...I'm a bad owner!!! I try to remember to be more patient, and more content with tiny victories instead of wanting huge leaps and bounds.

 

 

 

 

Nowadays I can put him in a stay and have him look at me if there is something I don't want him to see because the groundwork has been set and he trusts that I have everything under control, but I never expected that in the early stages of this process.

I completely agree that positive reinforcement is a much, much, muuuuuuuuuuuuuch slower process than simply bullying the dog into submission with force, but with the former method, I think that you will end up with a confident partner who not only trusts you, but is also capable of thinking independently, as well, as opposed to an obedient slave that lives in fear of its owner and continues to have distressing emotions, but has no outlet for them. The whole problem with the territorial/protectiveness aggression, as I mentioned above, is that in our case, there were no baby steps we could take to break the issue down into workable chunks as we can with leash-walking...it was all or nothing (i.e., he is inside the house, or he is right in the lion's den, so to speak).

 

I think that anyone who really DOES have a truly reactively aggressive dog should realize that the process of completely changing a dog's world view when he doesn't speak your language SHOULD take a really long time (months to years). If you don't believe me, check out Pam Dennison's Bringing Light to Shadow, which is the day-to-day struggle in diary form of a professional dog trainer and her extremely reactive BC, Shadow--now, Shadow's aggression makes Mojo's seem like nothing! In any case, she had an entire army of fellow trainers to help her, including a private training facility at her disposal, and it still took her TWO YEARS to get Shadow to the point of getting his AKC Canine Good Citizen award. If Mojo and I can get his CGC sometime in the next century, I think I will extremely pleased with us!

 

At least for me, the most enormously frustrating thing about all of this is not even the dog himself, or even the work I put into him--after all, if I didn't enjoy training, I wouldn't have dogs/horses!--but having to deal with the snide comments of passing peanut gallery members everywhere I go when I am simply focused on trying to train my dog. I am grateful for the very rare occasions when I actually encounter someone who understands what is going on with Mojo, either because their own dog is reactive or because they have known a reactive dog who was successfully rehabilitated to the point that dog/owner could live happily. Sometimes, it gets discouraging when I consider that despite all of the effort I put into it every single day, I can expect that I will be at this for many more months, if not years, and although I am hoping against it, it is certainly possible that in the end, Mojo will *always* be too reactive to compete in agility or walk down the sidewalk in our neighborhood (our relatively modest long-term goals). If you want to do it right and respect your dog as a working partner, there are *no* quick fixes available, unfortunately. If you are not privy to the overall trajectory of progress, on a day-to-day basis, you may see some good days, and some bad days. My objective measure of success is that if there are more bad days than good, then I must be going about things incorrectly (i.e., my experiences with a Halti and a prong collar), and I try to be as honest and objective with myself as possible, which is why I do as much reading as I possibly can, and I have ventured onto the Internet to talk with people who have more experience than I do with these sorts of problems.

 

I think there comes a time, though, that if you are confident that the methods you are using are correct, and that they are not harmful to your dog or to anyone else, that you should just say to *heck* with everyone else's opinion and keep working at it....nevertheless, it is still very hard not to let one's feelings be hurt (or, alternately, to lose one's temper) when I hear a stranger knowingly remark, even for the hundredth time, "Wow, you really need the Dog Whisperer! There's this thing he does, when he pins the dog to the ground...that'll fix him!" I have gotten blue in the face, trying to explain the principles of classical conditioning, operant conditioning, desensitization, and counter-conditioning, and still, they look at me blankly/doubtfully and say, "Okay, but aren't you REWARDING him for barking by feeding him?" Sigh.

 

I know that I have made plenty of mistakes with Mojo, and despite the veritable bookshelf full of positive-reinforcement training books I have obtained on Mojo's behalf, and which I have read and re-read until the books are falling apart, plus the hours a day I spend working with him, my own tenacious personality and dedication to this dog, and my own not insignificant dog training skills...despite all of this, no matter how hard I try, I fully realize that I will make plenty more mistakes...but I am committed to this dog now, as much as I didn't want a second dog to begin with, and certainly not one as difficult and time-consuming as Mojo is...but does that mean I should give him up, because there might be someone else out there who could do a better job than I am doing now? I think that's a bit harsh. Even if I did want to give him up, in our case, there is nowhere for him to go. Because of his aggression, a rescue can't touch him, and I would never, ever leave him in a shelter--I couldn't do it the first day I found him, much less ten months later of having loved the silly dog. With his striking looks and cute demeanor, he would be adopted in a second...and the minute someone took him home and realized what they had gotten themselves into, he'd be right back on the street...or put to sleep. I am going to stop thinking about all of that now....

 

So........INU! Is there an update??

[INU]

I've been visiting a dog training center every week the last several months and observe many dogs going through training - including simple obedience to behavior modifications. There is a young Aussie that is a perfect angel with anybody and any dogs, as long as her owner is not around. I was talking to her last night and she told me that she has another aussie from the same line/breeder that is so sweet and balanced. She used to be a therapy dog until she was diagnosed with hip dysplasia. She understands dog behaviors and have worked with dogs for a long time. There are dog owners who are clueless and cause their dogs to act overly protective or nervous when the owners are present. It doesn't look like that is the case for her. I have observed this owner and the dog past 6 weeks and I have not seen much progress. I got to see this dog without the owner in sight yesterday. I was stunned! It was a completely different dog. She was happy, focused and relaxed. As soon as the owner walks back in, she got tense and started growling at other dogs and some people. The dog is not fearful of people/dogs. She just think she has to protect the owner.

 

One of the trainers considered taking the dog and train herself. But it wouldn't work unless the owner is around. The only way is for both of them to come and continue working. They have been using gentle leader and sometimes chain collar - quick tug followed by reward when she listens.

 

Sorry for not updating sooner. I was stuck in the twilight zone for a few days and didn't want to lose my posts again.

Thank you very much for sharing detailed information about Aussie/Aussie mixes. I never thought it could be breed specific problem. I will print it and read throghly again later.

 

Originally this dog came for a puppy school and daycare. The dog is under 10 months old. Let me call this dog 'Blue'. When she walks Blue, she'd lunge, growl and bark at strangers. Last week, I believe it was the first time Blue got a hold of someone's hand - didn't break skin. But that says the dog is not just bluffing. The first Aussie she got from the breeder was a nice sweet dog and did theraphy work but diagnosed with Hip Dysplacia. The breeder offered to take this dog back but of course she was already bonded and no way she'd give her back. Instead, the breeder gave her another Aussie from the same line. Blue was already 3 months or so but wasn't the last one left there. She was the runt. She didn't think Blue was the most friendliest pup but she took her anyway. She is georgeous and it doesn't help with the issue. When she tries to walk in the neighborhood, people want to approach and she has to find a place/time with less people/dogs.

 

I just contacted the trainer and asked if Blue was going to continue coming to the center. I offered to help the owner outside the center and play the 'other person' to continue desensitizing her. I have to be careful so that I wouldn't step on anyone's toes but I don't think I am causing any trouble if I am just being the prop? This case really stuck in my head and I really want to see the happy ending in the future. I will keep you updated

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I totally agree with Mojo. I've had Aussies and Aussie mixes here and one English Shepherd, and every one of them had "issues" with misplaced protectiveness. The best way I've found is to put it in a context for the dog and then correct the dog for inappropriate protective behavior. (by correct I don't mean punish, but making it clear that the behavior was inappropriate by saying, "No" and asking for an incompatible behavior).

 

Mel, the dog I'm working with right now, is an Aussie mix who lost his previous home for this exact reason. One of the things I work on with him is that he's not allowed to snurffle all over me when I don't ask for it. That encourages his "I own you" mentality and quickly leads to protectiveness.

 

But, on the other hand, he is allowed to bark to alert when something is happening. I say, "Thank you," and that is supposed to be it. If he barks again without reason (ie, at the same thing), that's inappropriate.

 

I learned this from watching my guard dogs. Only the lead dog is allowed to keep barking once the situation is under control. The posturing that continues is saying, "Mine, and don't you forget it!" A pup that can't control itself gets slammed for stepping over this mark!