Need opinions on Rivens diet

[smileyzookie]

My husband was really for the raw diet for Riven and Rohan. Rohan was taken off because he was rapidly losing weight (he's thin anyway)and would vomit up whole pieces of meat, and refused to eat bone. He is on Felidae and he's gained weight and then some! The extra weight is great considering he was on SD his whole life and was skin and bones. His fur is tons softer and not nearly as greasy now. Also, his hairball issue is less severe and I havent even been giving him the catLax.

 

Riven is doing well on the raw too. Except she refuses to eat fish. But that isnt the problem. My husband doesnt want to spend money necessary to feed a complete raw. She's been living on various organs but only chicken meat/bone. It isnt healthy not to vary the diet, and Im sure she isnt getting everything she needs from it. Im thinking of swiching back to a dog food. I'd love to try Canidae, but it is an hour and a half drive just to get it, and Rohan goes through food slower than she does. There is a store that sells Nutro here. I was wondering what some opinions were.

[Guest WoobiesMom]

Woobie was on Nutro and I hated it. His allergies were bad and his stools were large, tan and extremely mooshy. Just my .02. If Rohan is having trouble eating bone, have you looked into the grinds available at www.hare-today.com? I'm giving it a go with my cats based on a diet I found here: http://www.catinfo.org/

 

I'm new to this raw thing and am transitioning slowly (cooking the meat at this point). I haven't received my first shipment from hare-today.com so I can't speak personally about their products, but it got good reviews from other raw feeding sites and users. I like that I can get it delivered to my door since I could not find any butcher here who would grind bones and I'm not comfy with the whole bone thing at this point.

 

I plan on supplementing Woobie's raw diet with Natural Balance meat rolls and kibble as long as his allergies stay under control and his stools are good. So far so good but we've only been doing it one week so far.

[Root Beer]

Personally, I would choose to feed my dog as you have been feeding Riven (mostly chicken) by leaps and bounds over switching to Nutro.

 

Or, and I know this won't be popular, but I might get the Canidae and feed a scoop in the morning and raw in the evening. I'm doing that with Maddie now because I want her to get the tooth-cleaning benefit of bones, but I can't afford to have three dogs on total raw. She gets Wellness Simple Food Solutions in the morning and chicken quarters or necks in the evening.

 

The philosophy that I've heard and personally subscribe to is that it's best to give a dog the most fresh raw food that one feasibly can, even if it can't be done "perfectly".

 

It would be like if a human had to live on hot dogs, but had the opportunity to have vegetables once a day. Not optimal, but far better than nothing. And the nutritional benefit of the vegetables would not be negated by the fact that the person does not get enough of them.

 

Granted, the dog would need to be able to digest this diet. Maddie does just fine. In fact, she benefits from the addition of raw in the evening. Dean couldn't tolerate any kibble in his diet, so he has to be on all raw, even though he does get mostly chicken.

 

So, that's my 3 cents!

[Guest WoobiesMom]

Or, and I know this won't be popular, but I might get the Canidae and feed a scoop in the morning and raw in the evening. I'm doing that with Maddie now because I want her to get the tooth-cleaning benefit of bones, but I can't afford to have three dogs on total raw. She gets Wellness Simple Food Solutions in the morning and chicken quarters or necks in the evening.

 

Someone else here does something similar to this. I think it was Irene, but I can't be sure. I think she also posted a crock pot recipe for cooking and crushing the bones.

 

I'm giving Woobs beef rib bones w/raw meat attached for the tooth cleaning aspect but I also read that consuming bone is important for calcium, etc., so I'm using raw grinds as well. But I plan to also feed kibble occassionally when I haven't had the time to prepare the raw meals. I don't think a little bit of both is necessarily a bad thing.

[mbc1963]

It would be like if a human had to live on hot dogs, but had the opportunity to have vegetables once a day.

 

Er.... Am I supposed to have vegetables more than once a day?!

 

Mary

[smileyzookie]

I dont feed ground bone to my animals because it defeats the purpose of feeding a raw diet IMO. The bone is there for teeth cleaning ect. Cooked food, ground food ect just sits on the teeth/in the tummy and rots.

 

So Kristine, your dogs eat nearly every meal chicken? I dont mind staying on raw, I am just concerned about making sure that she wouldnt be better off on a dog food than chicken every night.

 

Thanks to all who are replying, Im thinking on everything.

[Maralynn]

I had Missy on straight raw for 8 months. Her allergies had cleared up and she looked/acted great. I started feeding her kibble for cost and simplicity again and she was itchy all the time and then got an ear infection. She has been back on all raw for 3 days and her itching has stopped. So I'm going to be keeping her on raw or grain-free food. Her raw is going to consist of a good deal of chicken - probably 50 - 75% for now - as money is a little tight. But the vet visit for the ear infection was $55. I could have fed her for almost 2 months on that at grocery store meat prices, and she would have been much more comfortable.

 

If you want to add some kibble to make sure you have all your bases covered, I'd just pick up a 20# bag of Canidae when you get Rohan's Felidae and just give her 1/2 - 1 cup a day along with her raw, if her system can handle it. I think Nutro is a bit overpriced for what you're getting. IMO, Diamond Naturals is a equal or better food costing at least 1/3 less.

[SoloRiver]

I would not feed a raw diet the way you are feeding it. A poorly-designed, invariant raw diet is not better for an animal than a good kibble diet is. It is worse. You probably won't kill your dog, but to me that isn't the point. The reason to feed a fresh, homemade diet is because it is supposed to be an improvement over kibble. If it isn't an improvement, then what's the point?

 

That said, I have never had good luck with Nutro. My Pomeranian threw up in the mornings until I switched her to a different brand. I never connected her diet with her morning barfs (because they were mostly bile), and everyone told me that's just what little dogs do, but then I switched her to Wysong and she never barfed in the AM again. Solo was on Nutro when I first got him, and he had constantly runny stool. This may be partly because he was a nervous wreck at the time, but there are so many better foods out there that Nutro would not be my choice.

 

If I were you, I'd drive for the Canidae. Just buy a lot at a time. My dogs both eat Canidae Platinum as part of their diet and are doing extremely well.

 

I have fed a BARF-type raw diet in the past, with whole chicken parts and yadda yadda. I found that when my dogs ate mostly chicken their energy levels were quite low. Others have confirmed my observations in their own dogs. My dogs did better when they had more red meat, which is a more complete and appropriate protein source for dogs. Of course, it's more expensive, and harder to feed with bone, since the bones are much harder and for my dogs anyway had a tendency to irritate the gut. I had good luck feeding them lamb flaps, which have very soft rib bones, but I have never seen lamb flaps available anywhere except through the raw feeding co-op here in San Francisco so I have no idea where normal people would get them from.

 

I am no expert, but in my experience the idea that ground raw or kibble = tooth decay is totally bogus. These days, neither of my dogs gets whole bone with the exception of the occasional chicken carcass. They eat ground commercial raw (Primal, Hare Today, etc.), occasionally canned mackerel, and Canidae. They do not get recreational bones either, since both of them have broken teeth chewing on bones. (Broken teeth is a real danger of giving bones. Lots of dogs never break teeth, but lots of dogs do. When I took Solo in to the dentist for the first one, she told me bones are the reason 99.9% of her patients came in needing treatment for broken teeth. It's a calculated risk -- in my opinion feeding recreational bones is fine if you're willing to pay for the root canal when and if the dog breaks a tooth.) Both of my dogs have sparkling clean teeth despite the fact that I pretty much never brush them. Bones are not necessary for chewing enjoyment either. My dogs get dried tracheas, bully sticks, and rawhide flips to chew in the evenings.

 

Besides, I'd rather have to brush my dogs' teeth once in a while than feed them an inadequate diet.

[Root Beer]

So Kristine, your dogs eat nearly every meal chicken? I dont mind staying on raw, I am just concerned about making sure that she wouldnt be better off on a dog food than chicken every night.

 

Dean does. I vary things more for Speedy because he is sometimes sensitive to chicken.

 

Speedy gets a lot of turkey necks and I tend to alternate between using ground beef and ground turkey for him. He's 6 years old and he really doesn't eat very much. He gets 3/4 of a cup of ground meat in the morning (loosely packed) and some veggies. He also gets supplements of fish oil, vitamin E, vitamin C, and Dog Gone Pain in the morning for his arthritis. In the evening he gets either half a chicken quarter, a turkey neck, or some chicken necks.

 

Dean usually gets chicken muscle meat in the morning. He gets some ground turkey or ground beef either mixed in or separate a few times a week. If I have some meat left over in the fridge that's going to go bad if it isn't used, Dean usually gets it. He almost always gets a full chicken quarter at night. He eats over a cup of muscle meat, or ground, in the morning with his veggies.

 

Sometimes I get cheap beef from the "it has to be used by the end of today" bin at our local grocery store. That's usually when Dean gets more variety.

 

They both get eggs a couple times a week, too.

 

I don't give a lot of organ meat, either. Some chicken hearts a few times a week. I use cooked liver as a training treat. I know it isn't as nutritionally valuable cooked, but they get some benefit from it, I'm sure.

 

Both are thriving and doing well. Dean does far better on the mostly chicken raw diet than he did on any kibble I ever gave him. No more digestive issues and no more alarming weight loss.

[Millie&MeBC]

If I were to choose between raw and dry, in many cases, I would choose raw. If it's not going well for you, then I'd switch back to kibble. However, I would not feed Nutro. It's not as bad as Pedigree or Ol' Roy, but I find it sort of a stretch to consider it "good" food.

Is there a way you can make the drive to get Canidae and buy in bulk so you don't have to drive there again for a while? Or can you order it online or something?

[MrSnappy]

I guess I feel lucky to live where I do, because the variety of raw food is huge here. I also would not feed a raw diet if I weren't feeding an optimal one.

 

Regarding the cost of the diet, it shouldn't really be all that expensive, but if you're shopping at the grocery store it likely will be. Chicken backs and necks, along with turkey necks, pork hocks and lamb necks, form the bulk of my dogs' "whole" portions of food (dinner) and raw, often bone-in ground, form the bulk of their grounds (breakfast) meals. I get my meat from three different places and I buy in bulks, which makes it considerably cheaper. The most expensive part of their diets are the turkey necks, by far. The pork hocks are the only thing I buy at the grocery store because the one place I found that sells them bulk is, well, one more place I don't feel like driving to in order to buy more raw for the dogs.

 

I buy variety packages of raw ground from a local pet supply store, and it will come with chicken, herring, beef, lamb/mutton, salmon, duck and turkey. I add either cottage cheese or yogurt every day, and raw eggs a couple of times a week. One package of the raw ground feeds 4 dogs for two breakfasts in a row. A variety pack contains 5 packages, and costs about $30.00, so $60.00 lasts me 20 days. Chicken backs and necks cost me about $15.00 for 25 days. I don't count recreational beef bones as part of the costs as I would feed those anyway, with or without kibble. I have never worked it out properly, but is maybe costs me about $120.00 a month to feed 4 dogs. It would be slightly cheaper if I fed Evo or similar, I think, but it's not overly pricey. There are other, cheaper raw ground foods that I can bulk for less, but the variety is not as big and I like to feed as much of a variety as possible. I just can't see it being that expensive to feed one dog.

 

I have not found my dogs have a lower energy level on chicken at all. I've been feeding raw for 7 years and have experimented with a variety of menus, and there have been times when my dogs have eaten exclusively chicken for prolonged periods with no noticeable drop in energy. However, it's not something I would stick with as a main, long term diet.

 

Having said all that, if I were going to feed kibble it wouldn't be Nutro. If I were going to feed kibble it would be something as high end as possible. I am feeding my cats Orijen and they do well on it. It would be something I would probably feed my dogs, if I were going to feed kibble.

 

RDM

[silhouettestable]

I've been feeding Nutro Natural Choice Large Breed for years now with excellent results. My dogs love it, their stools are always firm, they have gorgeous shiny coats and are in good health. Being that each dog has different needs, their various formulas will probably produce varied results depending on what you choose. When I was at a dogsled race each musher was given a bag of donated food. There were a few different brands available and I chose Nutro Max since my dogs already eat a Nutro formula. I mixed it with their regular food but I found that while they were eating it they were gassy. I've always been really happy with the Nutro Natural Choice though. It's also guaranteed to improve skin and coats so if you get some and you don't like the results you can get your money back.

[RaisingRiver]

You can get a lot of high qual dog foods by ordering it and many ship free. I'm pretty sure I remember Merrick does that (which is what River and Diesel are on now). It's slighly more then Canidae. Just search online and you might be surprised what you get get shipped to your door for free.

[OurBoys]

Donna,

 

If you're worried about if Riven will like the food, ask them if they could send you a sample before you placed an order.

[smileyzookie]

Wow so much information! You guys rock.

 

I am now wondering about the whole ground idea. I was told it would cause tooth decay, but a few of you say you've fed it and it doesnt. Ground meat is pretty inexpensive. Thank you to the people who spelled out their diets to me, I appreciate it tons.

 

RDM - What is the benefit of yogurt or cottage cheese? I had heard dogs couldnt digest dairy right, so I was wondering if this also is a topic disagreed on by some.

 

Well, I wont do Nutro then, it sounds like it could be nearly as bad as SD. Canidae would be the choice then if I did it, but Im really thinking I could properly do raw and it would be cheaper. I just need better suppliers than Walmart. There are no co-ops here and the dang butchers wont call back. The butcher at the grocery store here says everything is shipped in big hunks but already cut up so no lungs, ect.

[smileyzookie]

Wow so much information! You guys rock.

 

I am now wondering about the whole ground idea. I was told it would cause tooth decay, but a few of you say you've fed it and it doesnt. Ground meat is pretty inexpensive. Thank you to the people who spelled out their diets to me, I appreciate it tons.

 

RDM - What is the benefit of yogurt or cottage cheese? I had heard dogs couldnt digest dairy right, so I was wondering if this also is a topic disagreed on by some.

 

Well, I wont do Nutro then, it sounds like it could be nearly as bad as SD. Canidae would be the choice then if I did it, but Im really thinking I could properly do raw and it would be cheaper. I just need better suppliers than Walmart. There are no co-ops here and the dang butchers wont call back. The butcher at the grocery store here says everything is shipped in big hunks but already cut up so no lungs, ect.

[Guest WoobiesMom]

I know what you mean about the butchers! When I called around asking if any of them could grind with the bones I got laughed at! They probably thought I was going to feed it to a hated husband or something! LOL I thought maybe they could do a batch for me at the end of the day right before they had to clean their grinder anyway or something. One guy said (in a deep southern drawl) "You want what now honey? Bones? Oh no daaahhlin' we can't grind in no bones. Nosirree, we ain't allowed to do nothing like that, okay? You have a good day now honey..." all the while chuckling his blood stained apron off!

 

I've read that if the dog has to rip and tear at hunks of meat that can provide a dental scrubbing as well. Woobie's teeth look so much better after just a couple rec bones but if I have to brush them once a week, I won't mind, as long as we get these doggone allergies addressed.

[Guest WoobiesMom]

Maybe you could supplement the chicken with an occasional whole rabbit. This place is close to you so it might not be that expensive to ship:

 

http://www.wholefoods4pets.com/dogs-cats.htm

[sweet_ceana]

I do not know about raw... but I do know that when Ceana's tummy is upset cottage cheese helps make her a little regular. We do not give it to her often, but she absolutely loves it. I can't remember where we read about it... but it was BC (before Ceana hehehe) and we were doing our pre-BC puupy reaserch.

 

 

****Oh and on the side note how is your back yard doing? I thought you posted a while back that you were having problem with grass. If so I saw a really neat thing on TV that could help. It cacoons the grass seed with fertilizer and who knows what. --darn I can't remeber the name.... if it wasn't you sorry ***

[OurBoys]

****Oh and on the side note how is your back yard doing? I thought you posted a while back that you were having problem with grass. If so I saw a really neat thing on TV that could help. It cacoons the grass seed with fertilizer and who knows what. --darn I can't remeber the name.... if it wasn't you sorry ***

 

Patch grass??? Didn't it come in a plastic container?

[MrSnappy]

RDM - What is the benefit of yogurt or cottage cheese? I had heard dogs couldnt digest dairy right, so I was wondering if this also is a topic disagreed on by some.

 

Both of these things are high in protein, fat and calcium. I have a dog with joint issues and I offer as many things as I can to keep him mobile. Cottage cheese and yogurt are both "good for you" and my dogs have never had any dietary issues with this sort of dairy - I have also read they lack the enzyme to digest it, but I've not really seen any evidence of it being a problem at all, and while half the nutritional sources suggest this, the others (including premium food manufacturers) recommend it. Again, we are 7 years in and no issues to speak of. The fat is important because I do feed a lot of lean meats and my dogs are extremely active. For example, if I feed turkey necks (which are very lean) for an extended period, my dogs lose weight - but if I am feeding chicken backs and necks, which are fatty, they don't.

 

I also add Blackstrap Molasses to their diets, which is a good sources of copper and iron. Essentially, I am giving my dog every chance to succeed, since he's on long term steroids and I want to keep him around for a long long time.

 

I've never heard that ground food causes tooth decay in dogs - my dogs don't chew! They scoop and swallow.

 

ETA - I WISH I could feed rabbit. I can't find it cheap enough. I even toyed with the idea of raising my own, but I know me ... I won't be able to kill them, and I'll end up with 8 trillion rabbits. No thanks!

 

RDM

[OurBoys]

RDM is right. I feed the boys Innova's EVO and it has cottage cheese in it. In the part I make, I add yogurt. I had to be careful with it though. JJ can handle it but I had to cut back on Jake's portion. If I gave him too much, he would get gassy.

[bc4pack]

The only Nutro food I have fed is 'Ultra' and my guys have done fine on it, I have added raw meat... having said that there is nothing wrong with adding fresh to kibble. You can also feed raw at one meal, kibble at another meal. At the risk of offending the raw 'purists', nothing is set in stone. Many folks don't have time, money or resource availability

to go completely raw. There is even dissention amongst raw feeders on things too, ie to supplement or not or dairy-yes/dairy/no. Feeding raw is the ideal but NO ONE should be made to feel guilty if they can't go that route. You feed the best you can. In my life there are circumstances where having a dog that won't completely turn up it's nose at a good kibble is a good thing...try living in an area without power for 2 wks post-hurricane and since I didn't have a flock of chickens at hand..... <g>

Ultimately YOUR dog is judge and jury.

 

 

http://www.dogaware.com

 

Some good info, great links.

[ErinKate]

Sometimes I think people get a bit too carried away about dog diets. I don't find a reason to be strict to the book. I have trouble finding raw, our markets will not sell you "off time" food of ANY kind. (I know some of you can get veggies) The fruit stand will sell you stuff, but you have to be there, they won't call you, they won't save it.

For a long time I fed a bit of raw, a bit of kibble. Didn't matter what kind of raw, or what kind of kibble. I am not going to waste my time "hunting" anything. My dogs did fine, beautiful coats, good weight, no upset tummies. Dogs vary, as do their needs of course. Go with what works for you. Don't discard raw just because you can't commit to it every meal. Talk to your vet, keep an eye on your dogs, and do what works for your pets.

 

How many of us follow a strict diet? I am allergic to milk, but once in a blue moon I will eat a bit of ice cream. Sure I pay for it, but I live, and it was a nice treat. No big deal. There are TONS of articles out there that tell me not to eat milk, they don't know me. There are tons of articles that say do not mix raw and kibble. Of course they are going to say that, they are promoting a certain kind of diet. If half raw half kibble works for your dog, go for it.

[Guest WoobiesMom]

The one thing that I've read can be a problem with combining raw and kibble in a diet is the amount of time it takes kibble to digest. There's some worry that if there's still kibble in the stomach and then some raw bone pieces enter, the ease with which an empty digestive system would dispose of them would be compromised. That's part of the reason I'm going with ground raw rather than the whole chunk of meat, bones and all thing. I am super worried about the possibility of a bone being caught anywhere from point A to point B in my dog but I still want to gain the benefits of having some bone in his diet. Feeding ground raw is an easy compromise for me at this point.

 

As a testament to the dog digestive power, my Airedale ate an entire 12 wing package of buffalo wings from the counter once, bones and all, not a bit left. We absolutely freaked and thought he was going to die. The vet said to watch him carefully for signs of distress. He had nothing. He was totally fine and they were cooked chicken wings. I know we got lucky and that should reassure me about feeding raw bones, but I still worry.