Guest LJS1993 Posted August 10, 2007 Report Share Posted August 10, 2007 With my summer coming to a close I can say I still have not figured out exactly what dogs were bred to make the BC. This link I found suggests that the typical ears seen in many BC's today were due to the influence on either the Whippet or the Greyhound. If I am reading this correctly, does that mean that many BC's have some of those dogs in them? Or have many BC's been bred with "Lurchers" and have thus inherited the same ear design? Fascinating but frustrating at the same time. Check this link: http://www.pets-corner.net/breed/30.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4pack Posted August 10, 2007 Report Share Posted August 10, 2007 ok, let's see if this works... http://www.roughcolliesofdistinction.com/breed_ancestry.htm And scroll down.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKB Posted August 10, 2007 Report Share Posted August 10, 2007 Kind of, it would mean that some of the dogs that influenced the breed were lurchers by the current definition. It's kind of like with horses- Arabs were an influence on thoroughbreds, but you have to go so many generations back to find it that you wouldn't say modern thoroughbreds were part Arab, you would say they were influenced by the Arab. Same way with BCs. They have been influenced by quite a few types, but it's been long enough and they have been bred purposefully enough that they are their own type because of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BustopherJones Posted August 10, 2007 Report Share Posted August 10, 2007 I would have referred you to a great site for further information, but bc4pack beat me to it. Note in particular the timeline in the chart (working from the bottom up), and the probable relationships of the various evolutionary branches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted August 10, 2007 Report Share Posted August 10, 2007 As far as I can find they are a conglomeration of old type: farm collies (not Lassie!) of various strains, spaniels, setters, pointers, whippets, bull terriers, lurchers.... Basically whatever was on the farm, and what worked, went on. Different regions would have different influences. The black/white, black/white/tan pattern of "irish spotting" is noted all over the world wherever dogs were bred for flock herding. In the end - who cares? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon M Posted August 10, 2007 Report Share Posted August 10, 2007 There is a really good article on this website Where did the Border Collie come from and also Genetics and the Border Collie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruger's Dad Posted August 10, 2007 Report Share Posted August 10, 2007 This doesn't apply to Border Collies but this is some interesting trivia. The Book of Job mentions sheep dogs. Job 30:1 "But now they that are younger than I have me in derision, whose fathers I would have disdained to have set with the dogs of my flock". There are some estimates that Job was written as early as 2000 B.C. Even if you don't hold to that early date or believe the bible, frisbee dogs have been around a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LJS1993 Posted August 10, 2007 Report Share Posted August 10, 2007 There is a really good article on this website Where did the Border Collie come from and also Genetics and the Border Collie That second link was excellent. The background of the Border Collie is very fascinating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millie&MeBC Posted August 11, 2007 Report Share Posted August 11, 2007 Cool links. I love reading about BCs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted August 11, 2007 Report Share Posted August 11, 2007 I wonder if the USBCC Newsleter realizes that their article is being used word for word on that pet world web page and without a reference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
border_collie_crazy Posted August 11, 2007 Report Share Posted August 11, 2007 many lurchers were regitsered as BCs...well that would explain Happy! lol, honetly the way Happy is built, if I shaved off her hair everyone would think she was a whippet lol she has the long legs, deep chest, tiny tummy, racy head, rosed ears. I have actually chatted with Whippet folks and she is the EXACT dimenstions of a whippet lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted August 11, 2007 Report Share Posted August 11, 2007 many lurchers were regitsered as BCs...well that would explain Happy! lol, honetly the way Happy is built, if I shaved off her hair everyone would think she was a whippet lol she has the long legs, deep chest, tiny tummy, racy head, rosed ears. I have actually chatted with Whippet folks and she is the EXACT dimenstions of a whippet lol Yup. A very good friend of mine has whippets (does lure coursing mostly) and she has said that Freya is a VERY hairy whippet When she blew her coat we compared her to the whippets and she was built just like them, though even smaller than some of her working line males! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LJS1993 Posted August 11, 2007 Report Share Posted August 11, 2007 You know Freckles has a very deep chest and tiny tummy. Probably just a proud dad trying to see more into his kid, but I swear there is some Greyhound/Whippet influence visible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon M Posted August 11, 2007 Report Share Posted August 11, 2007 I wonder if the USBCC Newsleter realizes that their article is being used word for word on that pet world web page and without a reference? I really doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon M Posted August 11, 2007 Report Share Posted August 11, 2007 ok, let's see if this works... http://www.roughcolliesofdistinction.com/breed_ancestry.htm And scroll down.... on the "ancestral relationships of british herding dogs" im surprised the NcNab isn't on the same line as the BC. But I probably just dont understand how it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted August 11, 2007 Report Share Posted August 11, 2007 People often ask me if Dean is a "Greyhound mix". And I've always thought Sammie very Whippet-like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LJS1993 Posted August 11, 2007 Report Share Posted August 11, 2007 My buddy Sean who is from Wales would be a good guy to talk to about this. Damn, I had a perfect living and breathing wealth of knowledge right in front of me!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LJS1993 Posted August 11, 2007 Report Share Posted August 11, 2007 on the "ancestral relationships of british herding dogs" im surprised the NcNab isn't on the same line as the BC. But I probably just dont understand how it works. True, the McNabb is a straight branch off from the BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WoobiesMom Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 It's interesting that you mention Whippets. Don't they have that double suspension stuff (technical term! ) in the way they run? I've noticed that when Woobie (admittedly, an unknown mix) gets running really fast, he switches to that. I haven't seen any other dogs except the Whippets and the greyhounds run that way at the dog park and thought it was unusual that he would run that way. Do any of your dogs run like that when they get going? Or are there other breeds that use that gait? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandra s. Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 It's interesting that you mention Whippets. Don't they have that double suspension stuff (technical term! ) in the way they run? I've noticed that when Woobie (admittedly, an unknown mix) gets running really fast, he switches to that. I haven't seen any other dogs except the Whippets and the greyhounds run that way at the dog park and thought it was unusual that he would run that way. Do any of your dogs run like that when they get going? Or are there other breeds that use that gait? We think Kyla might be a lurcher mix, because they show up a lot where she comes from, and, mostly, because she runs like a lurcher. But if that heritage is strong in BCs, maybe that's where it comes from and she's all BC...we'll never know unless we meet someone who's not terrified of letting the Monster near their sheep . Kessie sometimes gets called a whippet/greyhound mix by others, but I don't see that in her behaviour at all. I'd trust her with my life when it comes to controlling her hunting instincts, for example. But I see where they're coming from, especially looking back at photos of her fluffless/lanky youth days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 I can recall going someplace where a man absolutely insisted to his friend that Celt was a greyhound cross because of his build. Jim Cropper's Sid is a "houndy-looking" dog that, in full flight, shows a very greyhound/whippet extension. He is fantastic to watch at work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
border_collie_crazy Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 It's interesting that you mention Whippets. Don't they have that double suspension stuff (technical term! ) in the way they run? I've noticed that when Woobie (admittedly, an unknown mix) gets running really fast, he switches to that. I haven't seen any other dogs except the Whippets and the greyhounds run that way at the dog park and thought it was unusual that he would run that way. Do any of your dogs run like that when they get going? Or are there other breeds that use that gait? Happy does, she has 2 gaits when running, single suspention she is no faster then any other BC(about 4 seconds by flyball times), but when she see's she inst winning by a mile, she switches to what appears to be double suspention and shoots off WAAAAYYY ahead of the other dogs. she doesnt use it often, most dogs she can beat easy with a normal gait, but when she isnt winning? suddenly BOOM she's a mile ahead, and there is a very obviosy change in her gait lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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