Worms (Internal Parasites)

[bexie]

Okay, Molly has worms. At least she had one yesterday. I'm really not satisfied with what the vet's office is telling me and our two regular vets at the practice are on vacation and I don't know these other vets. Maybe it's just my logic that is off because I'm not experienced with these things, so I thought I'd ask here and you can tell me if I'm right to be worried. If it sounds like I am, as soon as regular vet is back from vacation, I am going to go pester him and make sure something better gets done.

 

Normally my BF does the talking-to-the-vet stuff and he did most of it this time too. He's got a good relationship with our current vets and has had them for years (I only just moved here a year ago) and gets good deals from them and does them favors in return. So I let him do this stuff so I don't make a mess of it. Plus usually we're dealing with the horses and he knows all the right words in Danish where I get confused (so he and the vets work it all out then he gets to explain it to me afterwards). So about a week ago Molly threw up and there were some worm bits in it and he's been supposed to work out dewormer but hadn't gotten that all worked out yet. Annoying, but not the end of the world.

 

Then yesterday I took Molly out to do her business and she got very upset and started running back and forth and freaking out. Once I finally got her settled down enough to see what was going on, she had something hanging from her and I had to help. It turned out to be A FIVE INCH LONG WORM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So I took a hold of it and gently pulled it out so she could calm down. Who wants a huge worm hanging from her rear end?

 

To get the point across to BF that Molly needed a dewormer now and to make sure that he could get the right kind, I brought the worm in to show him (he was making breakfast. It was 5am). Said worm is whitish is color and has rings on it like an earth worm does but seems to be one width unlike an earthworm. It is sufficiently translucent for me to see a blood vessel running through it. So after he freaked out at me for bringing such a thing inside, I took it out and threw it onto a big mound covered in wild rose bushes where we never go so Molly wouldn't get into it and proceeded to scrub my hands with hot soapy water and feel too sick to eat anything. But he got the message.

 

So he talked to the vet's office and I went to pick up the pills. I only got _1 dose_ of a dewormer for her and although I don't have the names written down, I am pretty sure it is the same one we had when we first got her.

 

I've checked my calender. We had dewormed her twice, 2 weeks apart, 4 months ago. Their response to her having worms now is that "she must have eaten something". Molly isn't out loose getting into everything. She does eat some horse manure (we worm the horses on a regular schedule) and some cow manure (he's a dairy farmer with very good production. I doubt he neglects dewormer). She might occasionally get into wild animal droppings on walks.

 

Can she have gotten into something since her last dewormer and have ingested something that CAN HAVE GROWN TO FIVE INCHES??!? This is where it breaks down for me. My concern is that the last deworming didn't get them all and the poor girl has had these nasty beasts all along. Then they have now given her only one dose instead of the 2 she had before and probably of the same medication that didn't work last time so she'll still be carrying more beasts around. From what I know of internal parasites, where there is one, there is more. So if she's passing one 5 inch (it is probably longer. it was 5am!) chunk of worm, she's likely to have more in there somewhere and she really needs to get rid of those things to be healthy!

 

Maybe this still explains the chewing on her sides behavior?

 

 

Thanks for any advice you can give me.

 

Rebecca

[Guest TheRuffMuttGang]

Sounds like tapeworms.

 

Next time, don't bother with the vet for worms. Head to Petsmart, pick up some Safeguard granules (fenbendazole) and presto. Granted, the stuff's not cheap at Petsmart (order it online and keep it on hand, it's cheaper) but it works. I've heard it's not very effective on tapeworms (it's always worked for my fosters) so you could also try another form of Tapeworm medication that they have. Or, you could switch her to Iverhart Max for heartworm preventative because it prevents tapeworms (most other HW preventatives get rounds and hooks but IM gets the tapes now, too).

 

Most wormers really only take one dose. That's all I've ever given to dogs and it's done the trick just fine.

[bexie]

Sounds like tapeworms.

 

Next time, don't bother with the vet for worms. Head to Petsmart, pick up some Safeguard granules (fenbendazole) and presto. Granted, the stuff's not cheap at Petsmart (order it online and keep it on hand, it's cheaper) but it works. I've heard it's not very effective on tapeworms (it's always worked for my fosters) so you could also try another form of Tapeworm medication that they have. Or, you could switch her to Iverhart Max for heartworm preventative because it prevents tapeworms (most other HW preventatives get rounds and hooks but IM gets the tapes now, too).

 

Most wormers really only take one dose. That's all I've ever given to dogs and it's done the trick just fine.

 

We don't have Petsmart. We can't get dewormers at the pet store.

 

We can't even get dewormers for horses without delivering a manure sample unless you have a really good relationship with your vet.

 

But can it get to 5 inches in 4 months?

[sandyleew]

Do you have access to Diatomaceous Earth? If so, I would give it to her on a regular basis. This will keep her from getting worms. Also, is it possible that she is just expelling the worms that have been killed with the wormer?

[bexie]

Do you have access to Diatomaceous Earth? If so, I would give it to her on a regular basis. This will keep her from getting worms. Also, is it possible that she is just expelling the worms that have been killed with the wormer?

 

You mean the one 4 months ago? I'm worry that this 5 inch worm wasn't killed 4 months ago...

 

I could see if diatomaceous earth is findable over here. I remember feeding it to the sheep for deworming purposes and putting it on ant hills as a kid.... But I don't remember seeing or hearing about it anywhere over here. We've started giving her garlic to try to help keep ticks away and I'm wondering if that might be causing the worms to come up and out now but not before.

[NancyO]

If you do a search on the internet for dog intestinal worms you'll find pictures of different types of worms. Since the worm you found was about 5" long is sounds like a round worm, usually tapeworms are found in segments about 1/4" - 1/2" long and looks like a small piece of rice.

 

larvae in migration cannot be killed by any of these products. After the worms are cleared from the intestine, they will be replaced by new worms completing their migration. This means that a second, and sometimes even a third deworming is needed to keep the intestine clear. The follow-up deworming is generally given several weeks following the first deworming to allow for migrating worms to arrive in the intestine where they are vulnerable.

 

Some wormers are only one dose, some are 3 doses, depends on the wormer. Usually you will need a follow up stool sample to the vet and repeat deworming. You didn't mention how old Molly was.

 

Nancy O

[Guest TheRuffMuttGang]

http://www.jefferspet.com/ssc/product.asp?...p;pf_id=0028561

 

Order some and keep it on hand. You don't need a prescription or a Petsmart. Fenbendazole is a 3-day treatment so one box will cover one treatment.

 

As far as a worm growing to be 5" in four months I would say it's very possible. Normally all you see passed in stools is segments of worms but it's not unheard of to see an entire worm.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

It sounds like she was given the sstuff that will take care of it. And yes, they can get really big, really fast. It's a shame you can't get cattle dewormer - it sounds like with her living on a farm she could use a more frequent worming schedule. I'd go to every other month at least. I do it every three months but when everyone's at higher risk (like when a bunch of rescues come in, in a row) I switch to as little as once a month.

 

Many people use products that are included in their monthly heartworm protection, which is fine for everything except I am afraid you might be describing tapes. A flatish worm is a tape - it's not often a long piece will emerge like that but it does happen [bleurgh]. A "round" worm wouldn't show any visible segments. There are only a few products that get tapes, but the one-dose product (Droncit) is definitely one of them.

 

The good news is that tapes have to be pretty heavy before serious harm is done.

[Guest pax]

Bexie, in Germany some horse people I've met grow carrots in DE to give to the horses. I've not heard of giving DE directly, I was under the impression it was pretty harmful to the gut but I could be wrong.

 

Anyway, one can get DE in Germany, so you can probably get it too where you are.

 

 

 

Your story was pretty ooey but you told it well. Made me want to go scrub underneath my fingernails.

[silhouettestable]

One good way to be sure that the vet knows what type of dewormer is needed is to show him/her the worm that the dog has passed. I know that in this case you've already disposed of it though. It may have even been possible for the vet to tell you if the worm had developed since the last deworming, or if it was already killed from the deworming and just being flushed out of the system, which would have answered your questions about whether the last deworming was effective. Here's a link to a site with photos of some of the various types of intestinal parasites: Intestinal Parasites

[urge to herd]

Bexie, if you find the DE, start her off with just a bit - like 1/4 tsp - and see how she tolerates it. My 2 bc's w/sensitive guts couldn't tolerate it, luckily we don't have much of a worm problem.

 

You can go to askthebugman.com and click on Diatomaceous Earth, maybe it's under flea prevention, to find out more about how the stuff works. For anyone who has insect questions, this is a wonderful site. Dr. Fagerlund is an all around great guy.

 

Worms are gross, no question. I had a feral kitten once. We gave her a dewormer, and in about 6 hours she vomited up a huge mass of them. My roommate and I scrubbed everything we could with bleach.

 

Good luck, I hope you find a solution. And any time an animal eats dung or manure, they've got a good chance to pick up worms.

 

Ruth n the BC3

[sandyleew]

I have been mixing DE in my dogs' and my cats' food for years without ever having a problem. I also know people that mix it in ther horse feed. You have to be sure it is food-grade. It is safe.

[AK dog doc]

I agre with Becca that this sounds like a tapeworm. The actual worm may be many inches long, though the shed segments (the part you more commonly see) are small and rice-like. Sometimes a large segment or the entire worm will pass (the worm will taper down at the front and you'll be able to see its head if the whole thing comes out.)

 

Fenbendazole will NOT kill tapeworms. You need Praziquantel for that (Droncit). Fenbendazole is for roundworms, and will knock out some strains of Giardia as well.

 

Just as a BTW, should one ever be in doubt about the type of worm or what meds to use on it, put it in a baggie and take it to your vet (yes, I realize this is disgusting). They'll tell you what kind it is and what meds are appropriate. We sell wormer over the counter - as in, you don't have to bring the dog for an exam, although you DO need an accurate body weight - so it's not very expensive, but even if you intend to buy wormers elsewhere we will still tell you what kind of worm it is and what the correct medication is. Not sure what the policy is in other places, however.

 

Droncit IS typically given as a one-time dose, and your dog CAN reinfest itself, even if it never "gets into" anything out in the yard. The flea is the intermediate host of the tapeworm, so ingesting an infested flea can do it.

[Lenajo]

Curious on your comment....fenbendazole is used for tapes quite successfully here. My vet likes it better, cheaper than Droncit for farm people. He uses a 3 day course of it though.

 

When we use Droncit he has us do a 48 hour repeat dose.

[Bill Fosher]

Do you have access to Diatomaceous Earth? If so, I would give it to her on a regular basis. This will keep her from getting worms. Also, is it possible that she is just expelling the worms that have been killed with the wormer?

 

DE has never been proved either safe or effective as a deworming agent far as I know.

 

Here in the US, it's common practice to deworm dogs every month with pyrantel pamoate, which does not cover tapeworms. And sure, a tapeworm could grow to five inches in four months, no problem, and yes, that would explain her chewing on her sides.

 

I'm unclear about what fenbendazole covers exactly. I recently bought a guard dog and when it came it was very skinny and we presumed it was infested with worms. My vet recommended treating it with fenbendazole at 10x the horse dose for three consecutive days. With the size of the guard dog, that meant essentially an entire tube of horse dewormer daily for three days in a row. It was expensive, too -- over $30 for the course.

 

But it did the trick. I found a couple of stools that were full of worms (not sure if they were tapes or roundworms) and he put on weight very rapidly thereafter.

[Pipedream Farm]

I'm unclear about what fenbendazole covers exactly.

 

 

Dogs and Cats:

In dogs and cats, mebendazole, fenbendazole, febantel, and flubendazole are used for treatment of roundworms, hookworms, and tapeworms. However, treatment must be given bid for 3 days. Fenbendazole has been used in a divided dose regimen in bitches against tissue-dwelling larvae of Toxocara canis and Ancylostoma caninum ; daily administration of 50 mg/kg to bitches from day 40 of pregnancy through day 14 after parturition resulted in pups free of both parasites, although this has limited application in practice. Source: Merck vet Manual: Benzimidazoles

 

The Merck Vet Manual is a great resource. The Pharmacology of Anthelmintics section has tons of useful info.

 

Mark

[bexie]

Thank you everyone for the replies. It sounds like:

 

1) I should not yet be second-guessing these vets as their treatment sounds pretty consistent with what all of you are saying.

 

2) I should probably put Molly onto a pretty strict deworming regimen, at least until we are sure that these suckers are wiped out and there is no way worms are causing her side chewing (she's been doing this even since the last worming)

 

3) If I find a worm again, SAVE IT FOR THE VET.

 

 

The worms are really gross, but I care more about my animals being healthy than about being grossed out. I've done this before with horse worms too.

 

I think it was a round worm going by the pictures. I haven't seen ANY of the usual signs of tape worm and I'm really alert to that. Used to it in cats.

The worm definitely wasn't flat. The texture I could see was more like the fine bumps of an earth worm and I have to admit, I didn't really notice the tip. I mostly noticed that it didn't have the extreme tapering of most earth worms. I don't usually get up at 5am. My BF was running late, so I got up to walk Molly so he could focus on eating and making coffee. He didn't seem concerned so I didn't think more about saving it. I'm worried because I thought it likely this worm has been here since last time, but you guys are saying it is quite possible that the dewormer worked last time but that she just got infested again quickly. I wasn't sure if the worms she would have picked up here would infect a dog. I don't know what species cross-infest.

 

Denmark is insanely strict on their dewormer and medication laws. You can't get any kind of dewormer for any kind of animal without a prescription. It wasn't that way when I first moved here, but quickly changed. It is really a problem for the animals, because it means a lot of people quit deworming their pets. A prescription could easily quite a bit then the cost of the pill itself... I also can't import it from anywhere legally. A lot of people do try to get them from Germany, but it can be quite expensive if caught. Any sort of mail order is really a bad idea as they monitor the mail very closely.

 

Thanks again for all the feedback. I'll just have to watch her and talk to the regular vet when he's back. And save any new worms we find after this deowrmer has had time to run its course!

[AK dog doc]

Curious on your comment....fenbendazole is used for tapes quite successfully here. My vet likes it better, cheaper than Droncit for farm people. He uses a 3 day course of it though.

 

When we use Droncit he has us do a 48 hour repeat dose.

 

I realized from reading your post that where I had meant to say "Fenbendazole does NOT generally kill tapes" I had left out the "generally". I believe someone - Ruffmutt, perhaps? - had mentioned they'd heard that it didn't work as well on tapes, and I was intending to underline that statement by concurring. (I was, however, on my way to work, so even if I'd noticed the omission I would not have had time to fix it. AND I somehow neglected to log out, as I discovered when I got home. This is what happens when you don't get enough sleep and you try to make sense.)

 

Allow me to clarify: It has been my expereince that Fenbendazole is not as effective in controlling Tapes as Praziquantel... in fact, the sole reason we CARRY Praziquantel is that the efficacy is so much better on Tapes, at least in my expereince (apparantly in the experience of a number of other vets as well, since every clinic I have worked in in the last 15 years has carried Praziquantel for tapes. Some actually use a combination product for tapes and rounds called Drontal - as opposed to Droncit - rather than using Fenbendazole for both.) We generally reserve Fenbendazole for rounds, including whips and hooks, and for the occasional resistant Giardia.

 

It's entirely possible (and actually not at all unlikely), however, that regional differences exist in sensitivity. In CO, CA and AK, every vet I've met has used Droncit on tapes, apparantly because they all feel the results are better. In CA we DID do a repeat dose because the flea population was so high; most of the time tapeworms were our cue to start a flea eradication program. We did a repeat dose in 3 weeks in order to cover the tapes that were still "in progress". Up here that has not been necessary. We also don't have nearly the trouble with roundworms up here that you might expereince in the Lower 48... not that they're by ANY means non-existant, but that we rarely see puppies dying of obstruction and anemia due to severe worm burdens (my boss is from NC and said they saw that not too uncommonly.He was an Army vet, though, so perhaps that makes a diff.)

 

I still think the easiest way for the average person to ID the worm is to let the vet look at it. We don't charge for that (by which I mean *I* don't, nor do my local colleagues) so it's a cheap and easy way to be sure you've got accurate worm ID.

[Tassie]

Just for interest - when we travel back into Tasmania from the mainland with dogs, we are required to worm them with a Praziquantel wormer against hydatid tapeworms. (Hydatids used to be a problem here, but is almost entirely eradicated from the island, so they are very keen to keep that situation.) If you haven't wormed them, the Quarantine people give you Droncit tablets. I now have my guys on monthly Sentinel Spectrum as an all wormer, and then they are also covered as it's a heart-worm preventer for when we travel to the mainland 2 or 3 times a year. Since it does hydatid t/worms as well, Quarantine are happy with that.

[Samantha J]

Some actually use a combination product for tapes and rounds called Drontal - as opposed to Droncit - rather than using Fenbendazole for both.)

 

 

That is what i always get from my vet over here in the UK for Holly and i always used it for my previous dog. Never had any sign of worms and it does not appear to cause any side effects. I give one dose every 3 months but i think for dogs at more risk of worms they recommend once a month/two months.

 

 

 

Rebecca - poor Molly that sounds very yukkey. Hope she is feeling better now.

[juliepoudrier]

FWIW, I use fenbendazole, and it seems to get rid of the tapes too, at least in my case, but I followed the Merck Vet Manual recommendation of treating for five days instead of three (at least I think it was in Merck that I saw that). Since I use ivermectin for HW prevention, I treat with fenbendazole as needed to get the intestinal parasites.

 

J.

[bexie]

Thanks Holly's Mum. Molly doesn't seem too miserable now. No signs of worms and no vomitting. Mostly she is just annoyed at me because I put underwear on her before letting her in the living room.