Help! My new puppy won't stop herding my other dogs

[TaliC2007]

I just brought him home last night and we all went out to play this morning and my puppy spent almost the entire time herding my two Aussie's. Granted, they probably do resemble sheep with their bushy butts, but they were becoming a bit annoyed. This puppy has an incredibly strong herding drive and I know it is just in him because his parents are both working sheep dogs on farms, but is there a way I can channel this to something else?

 

He is so good otherwise. Housebroke, crate trained. Is great with sits and downs and comes when called. He even does have that magic "off" switch when we come inside. I am just in love with him. Just not sure what, if anything, I can do about the herding issue. If that is just who he is, is there a way I can make it more tolerable for my Aussie's? I want to be able to take him to the dog park and I want my other dogs to be able to relax, so any help on this would be much appreciated. Oh, he is a week away from 6 months, is well socialized, and plays nice in the house with the Aussie's. It's just an outside issue.

 

thanks

Tammy

[TaliC2007]

p.s. I am amazed by this herding drive, how they just do it. Never been trained, they just do it. Very cool dogs. My Aussie's on the other hand might disagree.

[Guest WoobiesMom]

I'm sure others of much more wisdom than I will come along with better ideas. But what if you got a soccer ball with that net thingie that you can hold it in while you kick it and teach him to chase that and herd it as you run around the yard with it. Maybe the Aussies would be interested as well. They never did the herding thing? That seems unusual for their breed. I'm sure at some point they're going to let him know to knock it off. Good luck!

[TaliC2007]

Oh good idea Woobie's mom. I am going to go buy a ball and net today and try that. My Aussie's herded each other a bit when they were younger, they are 11 and 9 now, and I have seen my 9 year old herding a stray dog that got into our yard a few weeks ago, but when they did it was more of a playful thing and they never annoyed each other. It was never anything as intense and focused as this little guys need to do it.

 

I'm sure at some point they're going to let him know to knock it off

 

That's what I am afraid of. They are much bigger than he is and I am afraid they might hurt him if he pushes them to their limit.

 

thanks for the idea!

Tammy

[Guest LJS1993]

Shouldn't this fit with the Aussie's play style though?

[OurBoys]

"Shouldn't this fit with the Aussie's play style though?"

 

There's a big age difference between 6 months and 9-11 years. 6 months old = lots & lots of energy!

 

Tammy, Thanks for posting this. I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say because Jake has a lot of herding instinct. I've been able to work thru some of it but still have a ways to go.

[RaisingRiver]

You can teach your pup to leave it and apply to the dogs - or even use some other specific herding command to stop it. Keep him on a long lead so you can get his attention on you when he starts to do it. I also like the redirection of a ball or squeakie toy (gets attention) to use up his energy.

[stockdogranch]

Hi. A dog (or pup) that works the other dog(s) can be a real pain, and, to my way of thinking, this is a really bad habit to let them get into. If a "leave it!" or "that'll do!" command doesn't work (and you'll have to be absolutely consistent with it), you'll have to put the pup on a leash to not allow it. Unless, of course, you don't mind that activity. And I guess it depends on whether or not you intend to work the pup, too. If not, then I guess it's just rude play, and the older dogs MIGHT be able to quash it (but probably not). If you DO intend to work the pup, then I would definitely not allow this behavior to continue, even if it means the pup doesn't get to play outside with the other dogs. It's just a really bad habit. Having said that, that does NOT necessarily mean that the dog will be a great working dog--everyone thinks that dogs that "herd" the other dogs, kids, kitties, whatever, are showing "instinct"--not necessarily. There are lots of dogs out there who will exhibit this behavior, but when put on stock, decide that working is not for them. Working instinct can only be determined on stock. I know this topic has come up before, so a search might turn up some good results. Good luck!

Anna

[TaliC2007]

Thanks for your replies. I don't intend to work him on livestock. I do intend on doing agility and obedience, and my son wants to do the local frisbee thing with him when he is old enough, so he will have plenty to do, and he is a really well behaved puppy other than the herding thing.

 

Now that I know you can break that habit I will be doing just that or at least change the circumstances so that he can't do it. I did take him out on a long leash just a while ago and when he started herding them I stopped him and told him to leave it. He stopped, waited for them to move again and then started again as soon as they took a step. I will continue to do this for a while, as well as the ball and net game and see if that helps.

 

I am curious about what you said Anna

Having said that, that does NOT necessarily mean that the dog will be a great working dog--everyone thinks that dogs that "herd" the other dogs, kids, kitties, whatever, are showing "instinct"--not necessarily. There are lots of dogs out there who will exhibit this behavior, but when put on stock, decide that working is not for them. Working instinct can only be determined on stock.

 

You obviously have a lot of knowledge in this area. Can you tell me if this behavior isn't instinct, what it is I always thought BC's were born with this instinct. Not true? Or is it there but some of them just don't have what it takes to do use it on the livestock? I just assumed it was a herding dog thing and some had it a little stronger than others. I also thought if the parents were good stock dogs the puppies were more likely to be. Is there a difference in a working instinct and a herding instinct? Not that it matters really as I don't intend to use him for that. I am just curious.

 

thanks,

Tammy

[stockdogranch]

Hi. Most would call that behavior "prey drive." Now, yes, "working ability/instinct" IS at least related to prey drive, but, most dogs have some amount of prey drive (my ex's mother's Yorkie would chase the sheep, and if Luisa responds to this post, she has a great link of a Pitbull "herding"), but there is a distinct difference between working instinct and chasing or playing or plain prey drive. So, for instance, lots of folks bring dogs here to "instinct test." I take the dog into the small pen with several very calm sheep, and see what we get. A great number of these dogs will circle the sheep that first day, looking like they are "working"--BUT, when you start to train the dog, which means putting some pressure on it to do things YOUR way as opposed to the way the dog wants to do it, many of these dogs wander off, lose interest, etc. If they can't make a game of it on their terms, they aren't interested. For many of these dogs, their way means diving in for a "cheap shot" and then dashing off, only to repeat this process. So what has been bred into the working BC for so long is a really complicated set of characteristics--not just strong prey drive, but also the desire to work with a partner (the person), problem-solving skills, a natural gather, etc. So in a dog with strong instinct, the desire to work the stock is so strong that the dog is willing to do it by whatever "rules" are imposed on it. Your pup may or may not have it...the point is that you can't tell by behaviors observed off of stock. I've seen a LOT of dogs over the years, that the owners were just sure were going to be "great herders" because they chased whatever at home. Some really did want to work; others did not. So the distinction is really between working (herding) instinct and prey drive. I have had a few of my own that exhibited this habit of working other dogs, so I know how nasty it can be. But your pup is young enough to learn to not do it.

 

Clear as mud?

Anna

[OurBoys]

Thank you, Anna, for answering Tammy's question! I was thinking Jake had more herding instinct than JJ but if I understand correctly, Jake is just giving JJ cheap shots which actually makes sense.

 

I have finally got Jake to catch a frisbee instead of chasing JJ (when I take them out together) but on the walk to the backyard to play, he runs circles around us and then runs in and takes cheap shots (nips his back leg) at JJ.

(Jake still won't go for the frisbee until he sees JJ catch his first-then I have his attention. But, hey, I feel we're making progress.)

[silhouettestable]

For many of these dogs, their way means diving in for a "cheap shot" and then dashing off, only to repeat this process ...

 

... I've seen a LOT of dogs over the years, that the owners were just sure were going to be "great herders" because they chased whatever at home.

 

What about a pup that doesn't chase the other dogs, but slowly stalks one? My pup Rain (4 months old now) loves to run and play with the other dogs, but as soon as Lightning brings me a ball or a frisbee to throw Rain switches to "stalking" mode and she follows him around, creeping after him with her head low and her eyes fixed on him. He doesn't mind in the least, he totally ignores her and just keeps catching the frisbee, but she doesn't give up. Sometimes she'll creep right up to him but then just stand beside him like "now what?" until the next throw, other times she'll stalk part way to him and then drop down to lay in the grass watching. If there's ever a time that he takes a break from going after the frisbee she's instantly gone for it. She knows immediately if he's going for it or not and she switches from stalking him to running down the frisbee (or ball). She doesn't act like this with any of the other dogs, only Lightning. Of course, he's the only frisbee fanatic, the rest just run and play. She doesn't ever just run around chasing him for the frisbee, she watches him run for it and she slowly stalks. So what is that all about? She's also not crazy about chasing my other animals, all the dogs go right into the chicken coop with me, in around the chickens and turkeys, and through the fields where the horses are.

[Beth G]

Pepper stalks, herds and chases Popcorn alot too- but he likes it. However, you can rechannel this energy into herding a soccer or basketball IF they don't pop those.

 

Otherwise you might have to do what I had to, and go to Petco or Petsmart, and get a jollyball:

 

http://www.perfectpuppytoys.com/injoba.html

 

 

http://astore.amazon.com/bestdognews-20/detail/B00065040K

 

 

 

http://www.sitstay.com/store/toys/balls2.shtml

 

 

It's a dog toy ball (about the size of a basketball) on a rope,(or you can can get one with a handle) and it's the ONLY toy ball Popcorn can't pop...lol.

[Sue R]

Thank you, Anna, for that very illuminating post.

 

Tammy - If you didn't want a dog that might very likely exhibit those sorts of behaviors, you might have chosen a breed other than Border Collie. Now that you've got one, you will find that you have to deal with a number of Border Collie "mannerisms". Anna gave some excellent advice.

 

I have a couple of dogs that "work" each other and while it's not an issue for the other dogs, it's a bad habit that I didn't avoid by using the right consistent, intelligent training on my part, as Anna suggests. They do, however, work stock with keenness, I'm glad to say.

 

I'm glad that things are working out well for you and the old girls and the new pup otherwise. Best wishes!

[kelpiegirl]

I just wanted to add my plug nickel to the conversation. Many dogs have prey drive- and exhibit this in different ways- chasing vacuums, cats, other dogs, balls, frisbees, you name it. Most dogs have some form of this. Herding dogs were developed through the honing of that prey drive. It is prey drive with a purpose. I have seen some "herding" events where in the dog basically had to stay behind the sheep while the handler walked along the fence. To me, that is more obedience than herding. Of course we want our working dogs to do this, but this is not what I perceive as a stock dog doing stock dog work. To me it is the unsaid stuff. The stuff that you can't really teach- that 'toolbox" as it were. To illlustrate, look at a person with a true working bred (and able) dog working sheep. Watch what happens without lots of commands. When the sheep are settled, and so is dog, and then the sheep decide to drift- or run off- what happens? Does the dog look at you for the okay- and once you release it, does said dog fetch those sheep? Even more so, does the dog,when seeing the sheep leave, go into auto pilot and fetch them? When you send your dog to fetch the sheep- does said dog feel for his sheep, and know when he needs to kick out, so as not to unsettle them, so that he can bring them to you? When he brings those sheep, can he rate himself so that he is not over taxing the sheep? All of the above can be taught, and in truth many well bred dogs need work on this, but they have all of this to a good degree to start. They also, and Anna said this- treat this like work, like this is what they have to do- they aren't playing. They will take correction, and their reward is to work the sheep. I have seen many dogs taught the finer tricks of sheep "herding" and I really really don't enjoy it. Sheepherding isn't about obedience- it's about obedience in the face of an instinctual need to perform.

[stockdogranch]

Well said, Julie! Here's another example of a working dog using those "tools": The dog is lying loose at my feet in a 20 acre pasture while a student and student's dog are out in the field working a group of sheep. That group of sheep seizes an opportunity to escape because the student got so focused on getting the dog to "lie down!" that they forgot to watch their sheep. So the sheep take off at warp speed toward the pen where their buddies are. What brings my attention to the escape is the BC at my feet (paying more attention than I was, obviously) who suddenly takes off, sending herself on an outrun for the escaping sheep. However, she does not go get the sheep and bring them to me, which would be the default--she stops her outrun off balance to me, and merely positions herself to be a deterrent to the sheep, and holds them in a position so that they are close enough for the student dog to go get them calmly. I did not teach her this; nor did I teach this to any of the 3 or 4 dogs I have had over the years who spend a great deal of time out in the field while we do class, who have all figured this out on their own

Anna

[Sue R]

Sheepherding isn't about obedience- it's about obedience in the face of an instinctual need to perform.

 

Julie, your post was excellent!

 

This comment is something I face with my one dog - he has tons of instinct and an extreme desire to cover his stock. That, coupled with his not-so-overwhelming confidence in me as his handler, results in him often doing what *he thinks* he should do versus what *I need* him to do to get a job done. We are working on this!

 

I also have a dog, of little talent in a conventional working Border Collie manner, but who works very well at certain jobs "on her own". If she has the job figured out, she will do it without command and do it well. If I try to direct her, she freezes and looks at me or gets locked up staring at the cattle.

 

I was moving small groups of calves across the road one day. Ed would send them out of the barn and I would direct Celt to go behind them (9 o'clock from me), take them across the road, and through the gate there. I had Megan on a down at my feet. Celt, with his anxieties at driving and my abysmal skills, was not doing a pretty job but getting it done.

 

When the third little group of calves came out, just before I could send Celt, Megan took off. She placed herself at the right position, drove them across the road and through the gate, and promptly returned to my feet. Needless to say, I let Megan do all the remaining groups of calves, and she did them all as stress-free as a dog could work. This is how this little, ill-bred dog works - show her a job that suits her limited abilities, and she will do it without a word. Give her a job that requires an outrun and that's another story!

 

Sorry for hi-jacking the thread!

[kelpiegirl]

Hi

Sue, you know, each dog has their strengths, and it seems your little Megan has found hers. Celt bless his heart has try- and that is a BIG part of it.

 

I think it takes those of us with dogs who have innate ability, coupled with our lack of wisdom, to show us this My girl can do some amazing things. But, put her in a drill situation, and though she can look great, many times she is less than perfect, even trying, it seems to make things more interesting. So, I have started doing real jobs with her, and this she excels in. We are working on bringing groups in and out of fields, and one field they *really* didn't want to go in. I had her fetch them from far away, and had the gate WIDE open. One would think that with a dog behind them, they would just go. No, they stopped, and just spread out with the ones flanking looking to leave, and the middles facing out toward their respective sides. Hmmm. So, Lucy got this. I would flank her just a little, but then lay her down. Soon, she was doing this on her own, and not pushing too hard as they would squirt out to the sides. So, we took our time, and then they decided that the dog was more patient than them, and they went through. It was cool. I have also been working on loooong fetches with her- mainly as an experiment, to see if without my interference her little genes could get the job done. She did- yes, points off for technical merit, but she did it. The cool thing is that I am finally learning to have patience- to see that the dog knows WAY more than I, and to let her assess, and handle the situation. Humbling? Oh yeah. Recently, I had put the sheep back into their home field, and they sped down and away- into two groups. Great. But, I sat there, and waited. It is a LONG time when you can't see. But, just as the ladies' heads appeared over the hill, is when a little smile appeared on my face. The dog, I swear had one too. And that's because I let her do what her genes have been telling her to do all along. Oh Lord, this is what it's about. And this is what herding is about- not having the yen to circle, and chase, but having the instinct to do the job, and the brains to figure it out.

Sorry for the brag- but in truth, it ain't me or my training- it's the dog.

Julie

 

Julie, your post was excellent!

 

This comment is something I face with my one dog - he has tons of instinct and an extreme desire to cover his stock. That, coupled with his not-so-overwhelming confidence in me as his handler, results in him often doing what *he thinks* he should do versus what *I need* him to do to get a job done. We are working on this!

 

I also have a dog, of little talent in a conventional working Border Collie manner, but who works very well at certain jobs "on her own". If she has the job figured out, she will do it without command and do it well. If I try to direct her, she freezes and looks at me or gets locked up staring at the cattle.

 

I was moving small groups of calves across the road one day. Ed would send them out of the barn and I would direct Celt to go behind them (9 o'clock from me), take them across the road, and through the gate there. I had Megan on a down at my feet. Celt, with his anxieties at driving and my abysmal skills, was not doing a pretty job but getting it done.

 

When the third little group of calves came out, just before I could send Celt, Megan took off. She placed herself at the right position, drove them across the road and through the gate, and promptly returned to my feet. Needless to say, I let Megan do all the remaining groups of calves, and she did them all as stress-free as a dog could work. This is how this little, ill-bred dog works - show her a job that suits her limited abilities, and she will do it without a word. Give her a job that requires an outrun and that's another story!

 

Sorry for hi-jacking the thread!

[bcnewe2]

However, she does not go get the sheep and bring them to me, which would be the default--she stops her outrun off balance to me, and merely positions herself to be a deterrent to the sheep, and holds them in a position so that they are close enough for the student dog to go get them calmly. I did not teach her this; nor did I teach this to any of the 3 or 4 dogs I have had over the years who spend a great deal of time out in the field while we do class, who have all figured this out on their own

 

Ain't that the coolest???

Mick has figured out that he can get way more work in "helping" than trying to hone in on our training time with his little sis. The heavy draw to the lean too in our big field is sometimes to much for the young one. The sheep will start to make a break for it. Mick will take off like a rocket and position him self to cover the draw from across the field so the wee one has a chance to cover her escaping sheep. He looks so pleased with himself! With our lack of fencing he's been a blessing for us.

 

 

About the dog working dog issues. I have 2 that do it. I wasn't diligent enough to stop it when it started. They can be outside playing on their own sometimes so hard for me to intervien. What has worked for us is the offending dogs are not allowed any "cheap shots" on the other dogs. Heavy corrections from the other dogs will happen. They have to stay way out off the other dogs but are still "working" them non the less. They will do it on a walk, in play, or just about anywhere but sometimes it's very subtle so others don't notice. I can tell um to quit and they will but then they're right back at it when I turn my back or go inside and leave them out. As long as it doesn't effect our true work or bother the other dogs I don't mind. So we have a truce. BTW they're not allowed to do it to strange dogs. Ya never know how the other dogs are going to react so I'm sure if I put enough effort into it I could stop it all together but just haven't bothered.

 

It's funny, the 2 bad ones here are half sibs. the older one does it to our oldest female. Never touches her or even comes close but his lil sis does it to him and he truly hates it. I think it comes between him doing it to the older dog. The little one does it like him then when they're resting she'll come right up to him and lay at his feet. Kinda like...I'm not touching you. I'm not touching you. He puts up with it as long as that's what happens. She better not touch him. I sure enjoy watching the pack interact with each other. Don't know how they'd be if I took them out to say a dog park....they'd probably be like the bad bikers pack. All cool till someone got threatened. Then they'd all come running back to tell on the new kid! the ones I take out for trialing or work are fine but I've never had them out as a whole group off the farm.

 

I would worry about a young pup doing it to older dogs unless the older dogs are used to it they might really get po'd. I would think if possible, I'd nip it in the bud before it got out of hand. Yeah...do as I say not as I do

 

Kristen

[kelpiegirl]

Awesome Anna, and that is the essence of what we are talking about.

Julie

 

Well said, Julie! Here's another example of a working dog using those "tools": The dog is lying loose at my feet in a 20 acre pasture while a student and student's dog are out in the field working a group of sheep. That group of sheep seizes an opportunity to escape because the student got so focused on getting the dog to "lie down!" that they forgot to watch their sheep. So the sheep take off at warp speed toward the pen where their buddies are. What brings my attention to the escape is the BC at my feet (paying more attention than I was, obviously) who suddenly takes off, sending herself on an outrun for the escaping sheep. However, she does not go get the sheep and bring them to me, which would be the default--she stops her outrun off balance to me, and merely positions herself to be a deterrent to the sheep, and holds them in a position so that they are close enough for the student dog to go get them calmly. I did not teach her this; nor did I teach this to any of the 3 or 4 dogs I have had over the years who spend a great deal of time out in the field while we do class, who have all figured this out on their own

Anna

[kelpiegirl]

One other thing- I have a dog who will work one other dog, but stops if told off. Now, she isn't overly annoying, but it is something she does. She is the same dog, who when all are outside, will plop herself under a shade tree and watch everyone. Just content to do that. Doesn't have to be near anyone, just watch.... I think that is another way to work dogs- just keep everyone under your thumb...

Julie

[jdarling]

... my puppy spent almost the entire time herding my two Aussie's ... [t]his puppy has an incredibly strong herding drive ...

 

This would then stand to reason that because my dogs don't herd other dogs, that they don't have drive strong enough to herd livestock. Someone forgot to tell them that.

 

this is a really bad habit to let them get into

 

Excellent post, Anna. This is exactly what I tell people. It's a behavior -- one that I do not allow in my house. What I generally do is not leave the pup unattended early on so that they are not able to get into the habit in the first place. The minute I see one of my puppies trying it, all action stops, the pup gets called to me, praised like crazy for coming to me from out of the pack. Then depending on how controllable the pup is at that point will determine what I do next, be it make the pup lie down, put it on a leash, put it up in a crate, etc.

 

Good luck with it! Congrats on your pup!

 

Jodi

[TaliC2007]

Anna, thank you so much for that post. Wow, that is so interesting. You really know your stuff!

 

Beth G,

Thanks for the suggestion! I actually went to petsmart today and bought a jolly ball and he loves it! I do believe that it is going to help. I also got him a soccer ball but couldn’t find the net.

 

Sue R,

I wanted a Border Collie and I knew about their behaviors before I bought one, and all of their energy, and the time and work required to own one. I spent a lot of time researching the breed before I decided on one, however, I did not realize that he would herd my other dogs non-stop every time we went outside.

 

Btw, I love everything about him and now that I have him I am very glad I did get a Border Collie instead of a another Aussie(not that I don't love the Aussie's too, they are just different). I do see why you say that though. Since I have had him, all of 2 days, I understand why someone who knows nothing about the breed and just gets one because they are cute, smart, whatever, might be a little overwhelmed or surprised not knowing what to expect. Also, my mom has a 12-week-old puppy and he tries to herd her and she plays back and doesn't mind, so I do think it is partly due to the age of my girls. Thanks for your advice and help.

 

Jdarling,

.. my puppy spent almost the entire time herding my two Aussie's ... [t]his puppy has an incredibly strong herding drive ...

This would then stand to reason that because my dogs don't herd other dogs, that they don't have drive strong enough to herd livestock. Someone forgot to tell them that.

This is my first Border Collie ever and I just assumed that it was a strong herding drive. Thanks to other excellent and helpful posts, I have been given some great advice and things to try and have learned that this behavior is just rude behavior and should be stopped. Didn't mean to offend you or your dogs or imply anything. I was only asking for help. I also have not left the puppy unattended ever. I have only had him for 2 days, I got him at 6 months old, and he already had the behavior. And, thank you for explaining what you do with your pups who do this. That is the exact reason I asked, because I am unsure what to do. I didn't even know if I could do anything about it. Thank you, and again, I am sorry if I offended you. Just newbie stupidity

 

All of your stories about what you have done with your working dogs were very interesting. I admire those of you who train your dogs to work sheep and I LOVE watching the awesome dogs who do it.

 

thanks again to all of you who replied for all of your help and advice,

Tammy

[Beth G]

I'm so glad that we could help you.

 

Oh- And when I play soccer with my two, we don't use a net(they'd probably get all tangled in it) I just kick the ball around for them. They love to catch it out of the air.

[Sue R]

Tammy - You sound like a terrific person with a good outlook on things. I think you are right that a lot of it is age. You will see many of those same mannerisms in any pup that wants to play with the big dogs, but it may well be accentuated because of the Border Collie nature.

 

Best wishes with all your dogs!