The end is here

[Guest LJS1993]

Sorry, I disagree. I live quite peacefully with a father who absolutely despises one of my dogs. He tries to make every mistake the dog makes into a big deal. My solution? Keep the dog under control and away from him. If everyone in my family was involved in the raising of my dogs, it would be a disaster. I don't care if I'm the only one doing the training/feeding/walking/grooming. Should my puppy be rehomed because my parents don't do anything with her?

 

Bindi Mom - I'm glad you decided to keep her. It sounds like you are dedicated to making this work and one less dog in rescue is always a good thing to me. Randomly, it sounds like Bindi is a little too wild, even for her age. She should have some self control by now. Have you considered getting lessons on how to handle her?

 

 

Do you have several kids, husband and bills to pay? Do you have the stress of a relationship? According to your profile you are 17 years old. Not trying to be a jerk but Bindi's Mom has alot more at stake here than a mean old father.

[bexie]

I am definitely curious to hear how DH is taking the decision to keep her. Are the kids willing to do the "work" when they want to keep her? I'm thinking of things like playing with her to help tire her out.

 

Good luck.

[borderlicious]

Do you have several kids, husband and bills to pay? Do you have the stress of a relationship? According to your profile you are 17 years old. Not trying to be a jerk but Bindi's Mom has alot more at stake here than a mean old father.

Mm-hm. You weren't trying, but you succeeded.

 

I understand her situation is different than mine, it doesn't change the fact that if BM wants to commit to this, she can make it work. The comment that if the entire family was not on board with her training, it's better off to rehome was too harsh and discouraging to someone who wants to give this her best shot. People can and do make things like this work without the support of everyone in their family, whether they're 17 or 45.

 

That being said, if she doesn't want to live with this dog and work through the normal stuff that will pop up as the pup matures, I agree that rehoming her while she's young is a good idea.

[SincereArtisan]

I only want to caution you about the doggy daycare. It is a GREAT way for your dog to learn manners, if they're a puppy who needs them. But, especially for BCs, try to make sure she doesn't go too often. Also, after she turns a year old, I would cut her off completely.

 

I'll explain...I worked at a doggy daycre for 9 months...The puppies really benefitted from it the most. But, most of the adult dogs were just there to tolerate it. Yes, there were fights, but we were right on top of them when they happened. I blamed the fights on over-crowding, and a particular dog I made clear i didn't believe should be allowed to come anymore--but his daddy was some high-end professional that th owner of our daycare didn't want to offend. Oi.

 

BCs in particular seem to get a little quirky. I brought my two with me every day. Rune developed an obsession with herding certain dogs, usually those that acted "off"--deaf, blind, under-socialized ones--or those that I struggled to control. It was a bad habit that took a good two months of vigilance to break her of....but she would still resort to it if I wasn't right on top of her. She was looking for a job to do, and she found it alright, true to her breed, but air-snapping and herding a bichon with a bad attitude was not what I had in mind for her.

 

Ido just seemed to develop weird 'patterns' to her activities, walking certain paths to doors, or to me, clinging to certain corners when she was distressed by the vaccuum, etc...worried me a bit.

 

I stopped bringing them several months before I quit. They were one of the main reasons I had the job to begin with, so I was able to raise my puppies under supervision.

 

Once a week, is pretty decent. As long as she isn't there too much, she shouldn't get bored with the place and decide she needs something better to do, lol.

[Guest pax]

Do you have several kids, husband and bills to pay? Do you have the stress of a relationship? According to your profile you are 17 years old. Not trying to be a jerk but Bindi's Mom has alot more at stake here than a mean old father.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but until you've been in the situation where you need to work this out with the person who is helping you make the mortgage and the car and credit card payments, AND, you've got kids to provide insurance and clothes and shoes and food for, you really can't understand. That's not being a jerk, that's being real.

 

You seem pretty mature, I hope that you can take into account that you just don't KNOW, because the truth is, you've never been there. That's not a smack down at you. You're 17. It's reality.

 

I've been there done, done that with a lot of animals and a lot of different people. I think once that emotional "I'm responsible and I'm going to do anything to make it ok" bond has snapped, you're fighting a losing battle, personally.

 

I would not try to do what Bindi's Mom has decided to do, although I hope that she is successful. Good luck, Bindi's Mom. Good luck, Bindi.

[PSmitty]

I see Grace's point. If "Bindi's Dad" is ok with her staying, but just doesn't want to help with any caretaking, then I agree with what she's saying, i.e, it is a workable situation. However, if he were adamant about not wanting the dog, and it was causing stress and harm to the relationship/family (not to mention Bindi), then it might be in the pup's best interest to be rehomed.

 

Good luck, BindiMom. I know it's a terribly difficult situation. My advice it not to make any rash decisions, but do take into account everyone's feelings and what is truly best for the dog. If you think that there is a chance that things won't get better, it's in Bindi's best interest (and your children's) that you rehome her sooner rather than later.

[Jack & Co.]

I am definitely curious to hear how DH is taking the decision to keep her.

 

Bexie asked this question several posts ago; I am also curious about the answer to it.

[Guest WoobiesMom]

Bindi's Mom,

 

I had a really difficult Airedale that gave me fits during his puppyhood. One thing that the breeders and a trainer recommended that really worked well for us was the Nothing In Life Is Free approach (you can get lots of detailed instructions by googling the term). My kids would sit next to the food bowl, make him sit, feed him a little at a time, make him eat from their hands, etc. (I was really vigilant about preventing food aggression) They were never allowed alone with him so that nothing like nips and bites could happen. When I was in the shower, he was in the crate. The kids were taught the crate was holy sacred undisturbed ground the dog could retreat to and not be bothered.

 

When he got into his naughty stage where he'd chew things to bits if left alone, he was attached to a family member by a leash at all times. We always kept him in the crate or under control when people visited (especially little friends). We ruled his life (but not in a harsh way). The only out-of-crate time was with-the-family-and-under-control-behaving-yourself time. He did not get unsupervised free time for the first 3 years of his life, he was always with us, interacting with us, obeying us. He got lots of play, etc. but he was never free to act on his own impulses. He got long walks with kids morning and night while I supervised and held part of the leash farther back so he thought the kids were walking him. I had a problem w/my ex with being too harsh as well. He liked the dog well enough and all but thought that choking was a great way to prevent unwanted behaviors (one of the many reasons he's the EX) so I was determined to work around him and keep the dog under my control as much as possible. It took a long time and alot of patience (he was a terrier after all) but it did work and we ended up with a dog we loved dearly and who was pretty well behaved (for a terrier - lol). I was never able to go the doggie day care route because he was very male dog aggressive, but they do teach each other manners and wear out some of the excess energy as well.

 

Needless to say, he came with me when I divorced. He also got alpha rolls pretty regularly, but we won't go down that controversial path. I think Bindi can be reformed and eventually impress your husband with her good behavior if you and your kids are willing to put in the effort. Hope this helps a bit and I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you, Bindi, and your family!

[painted_ponies]

I understand her situation is different than mine, it doesn't change the fact that if BM wants to commit to this, she can make it work. The comment that if the entire family was not on board with her training, it's better off to rehome was too harsh and discouraging to someone who wants to give this her best shot. People can and do make things like this work without the support of everyone in their family, whether they're 17 or 45.

 

or 46.

 

I have four dogs, three cats, two horses and a farm to take care of, plus I work full time. When I got Faith, I was very clear with DH that I didn't expect him to do a single thing for her. Period. As time went on, and he grew to know and like her, he volunteered to put her out in her pen and feed her supper when he got home (he's home before I am). Being no idiot, I accepted gratefully. But that's pretty much all he does with Faith except throw the kong for her occasionally. I try to keep his exposure to Faith to small doses, since a little of her goes a long way.

 

Same thing with the horses. DH had zero horse experience when they moved home, and I didn't want him doing anything with them for fear he'd get hurt (they're big old critters). After a few weeks, he asked if I'd like for him to throw them some hay over the fence in the evenings, and that's pretty much all he still does with them.

 

It's just not a bone of contention between us. He does his thing, I do mine. No big deal.

[Mona Howard]

If your husband is INSISTING that she goes and you are insisting that she stays, I am

afraid that Bindi will be the one to suffer for it. He'll be jealous that you picked the dog

over him and could take out his aggression on Bindi. Sometimes it shows more love

to rehome the dog into a family where everyone will love her and she doesn't have

to live in fear of one member. I love my dogs more than anything and if I had to give

one up I would carry that resentment against my husband forever. Still, I would give

up the dog rather than fear he may go into a rage one day and hurt her. Some people

would be so immature as to be mean to the dog only when you are not around. Not a

situation for any dog to be in. She's young and will learn to love her new family just

as much as you. I feel for you, no one should have to be forced to give up a loved pet,

but you must do what's best for Bindi. Mona

[Beth G]

The above was also one of my unvoiced fears also.

 

Bexie asked this question several posts ago; I am also curious about the answer to it.

 

 

I also asked- even before Bexie- and am still waiting....

[Guest LJS1993]

 

I'm sorry, but until you've been in the situation where you need to work this out with the person who is helping you make the mortgage and the car and credit card payments, AND, you've got kids to provide insurance and clothes and shoes and food for, you really can't understand. That's not being a jerk, that's being real.

 

You seem pretty mature, I hope that you can take into account that you just don't KNOW, because the truth is, you've never been there. That's not a smack down at you. You're 17. It's reality.

 

I've been there done, done that with a lot of animals and a lot of different people. I think once that emotional "I'm responsible and I'm going to do anything to make it ok" bond has snapped, you're fighting a losing battle, personally.

 

I would not try to do what Bindi's Mom has decided to do, although I hope that she is successful. Good luck, Bindi's Mom. Good luck, Bindi.

 

Thank you very much. That was the point I was trying to make. When all you have to worry about is a grumpy parent, sure no problem. Parent just stays away from the dog, kid acts like a usual teenager, dog is happy. However in this situation the problem is that Bindi is a mature adult with commitments besides her dog(s). She has kids to think about, a husband to take into account. Tell you what, if it wasn't for my family's acceptance of Freckles and their willingness to work with her there is no way I could have her. Why? Because both my fiance and myself have commitments that take us away from Freckles from time to time. During these times cooperation is a must from all in my family. My Grandmother has kindly allowed Freckles to work on the ranch while I am at work. My Uncle kindly watches her when I have conferences keeping me overtime at the job site. It is a family affair and must be treated as such.

[MrSnappy]

What a lot of discussion and assumption about someone else's life and interpersonal relationships!!

 

What it really boils down to is BINDI. Bindi's Mom has intimated several times that she does not have the time for Bindi, and then gets frustrated when Bindi behaves like a dog that someone has not got enough time for. Promises to spend more time with Bindi arise, and the cycle repeats itself shortly afterward, because Bindi is more work than BM is prepared to manage. This describes about 90% of the owners who give up their dogs to rescue.

 

Bindi is not going to magically grow out of this or get calmer. I've already told all of this to Bindi's Mom so I'm not saying anything she has not already heard.

 

I would like to say that people, when this reality is presented to them, change their lifestyle to accomodate the dog, on a regular basis, but regrettably this does not happen. What does happen is they make a concentrated effort for a little while, the dog improves, the owner begins to slack because they think the dog is fixed, and it starts all over again. (Reminds me very much of people with bipolar disorders who go off their medications as soon as they feel better, actually) And after a few cycles, the dog is finally rehomed because it doesn't magically get better on its own.

 

At the risk of repeating myself, I'm going to stress again that raising pups is really not that difficult and while I too have been tired, frustrated etc. while raising mine, I also live a life where my dogs' needs are very much met DAILY. It is an integral part of my routine, that is, providing for my dogs' exercise and training needs every day. So the frustration and exhaustion is short lived and not serious. When someone finds it THIS hard it suggests to me that a herding dog is likely not for them - because again, it's not going to get magically better without a serious, PERMANENT change on the owner's part.

 

At this point, I am speaking in general terms and not trying to make BM feel badly - but I see this So.Often. Over the years, I have seen it so many times I can almost predict to the day when the owners are going to call me and tearfully relinquish the dog. As I have told Bindi's Mum, I hope my prediction in this case is wrong.

 

But RRRRR I'm an ogre. And a cynical one at that. Or maybe just a realist.

 

*shrug*

 

RDM

[borderlicious]

I see Grace's point. If "Bindi's Dad" is ok with her staying, but just doesn't want to help with any caretaking, then I agree with what she's saying, i.e, it is a workable situation. However, if he were adamant about not wanting the dog, and it was causing stress and harm to the relationship/family (not to mention Bindi), then it might be in the pup's best interest to be rehomed.

My thoughts exactly. I don't know if her husband is adamant that the dog leave, or if it was just a one-day "gah, get rid of the dog!" decision made out of anger. I am also curious to hear how he reacted.

 

And of course I don't know what it's like to be married; I'm not aware that I ever claimed to know. Frankly I fail to see what that has to do with anything, since this is about BINDI and not her relationship. This is about keeping the dog when the husband doesn't like her. Part of being in a family is making compromises so everyone can be happy (and yes, that I DO know despite my age/stupidity). So whether it's a "mean old father" or a "mean old husband", it can work if the individual is up to it.

 

Ultimately I think only Bindi's Mom can make the right decision because she's the one who knows her husband and his reactions. I'm behind whatever decision she makes.

 

ETA: RDM - interesting post. I hadn't thought of it that way, but you bring up a really good point.

[Guest LJS1993]

What a lot of discussion and assumption about someone else's life and interpersonal relationships!!

 

What it really boils down to is BINDI. Bindi's Mom has intimated several times that she does not have the time for Bindi, and then gets frustrated when Bindi behaves like a dog that someone has not got enough time for. Promises to spend more time with Bindi arise, and the cycle repeats itself shortly afterward, because Bindi is more work than BM is prepared to manage. This describes about 90% of the owners who give up their dogs to rescue.

 

Bindi is not going to magically grow out of this or get calmer. I've already told all of this to Bindi's Mom so I'm not saying anything she has not already heard.

 

I would like to say that people, when this reality is presented to them, change their lifestyle to accomodate the dog, on a regular basis, but regrettably this does not happen. What does happen is they make a concentrated effort for a little while, the dog improves, the owner begins to slack because they think the dog is fixed, and it starts all over again. (Reminds me very much of people with bipolar disorders who go off their medications as soon as they feel better, actually) And after a few cycles, the dog is finally rehomed because it doesn't magically get better on its own.

 

At the risk of repeating myself, I'm going to stress again that raising pups is really not that difficult and while I too have been tired, frustrated etc. while raising mine, I also live a life where my dogs' needs are very much met DAILY. It is an integral part of my routine, that is, providing for my dogs' exercise and training needs every day. So the frustration and exhaustion is short lived and not serious. When someone finds it THIS hard it suggests to me that a herding dog is likely not for them - because again, it's not going to get magically better without a serious, PERMANENT change on the owner's part.

 

At this point, I am speaking in general terms and not trying to make BM feel badly - but I see this So.Often. Over the years, I have seen it so many times I can almost predict to the day when the owners are going to call me and tearfully relinquish the dog. As I have told Bindi's Mum, I hope my prediction in this case is wrong.

 

But RRRRR I'm an ogre. And a cynical one at that. Or maybe just a realist.

 

*shrug*

 

RDM

 

I concur. Using myself as a perfect example I would have to say that I went in knowing that I would have to change my life in order to accomodate my new pup. Granted she is my second pure BC, but nonetheless I still had to make some adjustments for Freckles. For instance there are times when I have to tell my buddies "no I can't train martial arts today, I have a kid to take care of", in this case kid meaning my pup. I have to set aside time to take her out for runs and training. I thought it over, checked to make sure my family was on board and went with it. If not for her job on the ranch there is no way I could have had Freckles at this point in my life. But that was due to both a life change on my part and cooperation from family. I basically see Freckles as my kid who needs guidance, patience, love and discipline/management.

[PSmitty]

But RRRRR I'm an ogre.

 

Time to change your custom title again!

 

Anyway, big word to your whole post.

[Guest pax]

My thoughts exactly. I don't know if her husband is adamant that the dog leave, or if it was just a one-day "gah, get rid of the dog!" decision made out of anger. I am also curious to hear how he reacted.

 

And of course I don't know what it's like to be married; I'm not aware that I ever claimed to know. Frankly I fail to see what that has to do with anything, since this is about BINDI and not her relationship. This is about keeping the dog when the husband doesn't like her. Part of being in a family is making compromises so everyone can be happy (and yes, that I DO know despite my age/stupidity). So whether it's a "mean old father" or a "mean old husband", it can work if the individual is up to it.

 

Ultimately I think only Bindi's Mom can make the right decision because she's the one who knows her husband and his reactions. I'm behind whatever decision she makes.

 

 

How can it not be about her relationship? That's very disingenuous. There have been lots of posts about why and how Bindi's Dad is not on board. This isn't some parent dealing with a a kid who is pissing him off with her dog. Parental love and obligation is a whole 'nother ball of wax from a relationship between adults which is already under stress.

 

It's great that you and your Dad have worked out some kind of detente but I think it is unwise to turn that into a generalization that anything, anywhere can be worked out. Sometimes, it just doesn't. With the best of intentions in the world. Which, frankly, it sounds like Bindi's Dad just doesn't have.

 

The situation sucks for everybody. I hope that the most good comes of it as is possible.

[Bindi Mom]

Good morning everyone. Sorry for the delay. I've read everyone's response and here's the update

 

First off, I made hubby out to sound like a big jerk and he's really not. We occassionally clash because he is as hard headed as I am but he is a great hubby, dad and friend. He was upset that Bindi had scratched our youngest and nipped/bit him. He is worried that she is going to really bite one of the kids in the neighborhood and doesn't want to have to make the decision to put her down. I understand that anxiety and won't give Bindi the opportunity to screw up. He is also overloaded at work and that stress came out as well.

 

We had a really great talk last night and he agreed that we will all work with Bindi. He is not insisting that she goes. That was a response to the situation - the same as my starting this thread was a response to the situation. He is going to go with me to the next series of obedience classes as often as he can. He will take her for walks, either with or without me. He agreed to learn a better way to train than with force. I asked him to stop saying "I never wanted a dog", etc. because it stresses me out and he agreed. I'm not going to hand over too much to him though because he just doesn't deal well with this crazy age. But I feel like we are all on the same page now.

 

About daycare, my thought was to take Bindi tomorrow and observe how she does. I work for myself and can adjust my schedule to whatever I need but was thinking that Bindi could go to daycare on the days I'm going to be gone all day. I am worried now after reading your experiences with daycare. She is really obnoxious with other dogs. She does get into the submissive crawl when a dog gives her a warning but I don't want her to be bit. The gal that runs the daycare is a trainer so I will talk with her tomorrow. I'll let you all know how she does.

 

Bindi is now re-attached to me at all times unless she is in the crate. I've read that you aren't supposed to use the crate as punishment but when she just won't stop jumping on me, I'm crating her. She is also crated during meals because I don't trust her not to jump on the table.

 

Thanks again for all your comments.

[PSmitty]

I have no experience with doggie daycare, but if it tires Bindi out, it's a good thing! Since the person who runs it is a trainer, please do talk to her about your training issues. Bindi is of the age where she can be taught not to jump on people.

[DixiesDad]

Best of luck to all of you. All of you will be in our thoughts. I'm a little mulish myself.

[Beth G]

Just wanted to say that it is good that you have gotten him on your side of the camp, so to speak. Let's just hope that he stays there. Best of luck to you & Bindi.

 

Also indeed it would be a good idea that he stop saying he doesn't want Bindi if he has agreed that he does really want it to work.

 

Don't for a minture think that Bindi won't understand what he is saying. And of course thinking she isn't wanted, is only going to stress her out further, adding to her "acting out" behaviour.

[andie71]

It's a good thing that you and your husband had a long, thoughtful conversation. Sounds like both of you understand each other's concerns and goals.

 

I wish you luck with Bindi. I'm glad that it seems as though you and your husband are on the same or similar page. Just to reiterate though, I wouldn't let Bindi go to doggie daycare more than 2x a week. It's a great outlet for a pup but they do learn disruptive behavior if not properly supervised by staff.

 

Hopefully there will be a positive update post in the near future.

[Beth G]

Honestly, IMO I'm not sure I like the thought of doggy daycare. I'd prefer the puppy training classes so I could be there through everything that happened. All it takes is one rude dog during a pup's fear peroid and BOOM! disaster!

[Guest WoobiesMom]

Don't sweat the "crate means punishment" thing unless you're yelling and screaming and throwing her in there. There were plenty of times w/my old dog that if I discovered a mess and had to clean it I just put him in there while I took care of things or when we were done w/a walk and I had to cook dinner, didn't want him tethered to me, into the kennel, etc. Even if Bindi is getting all crazy and seems not focused on obeying, quietly putting her in the kennel in a business-like manner should be fine w/o detrimental effects.

 

BTW, all the dogs I've seen who adopt the submissive crawl at the dog park have not been the ones involved in fights, it's been the upright, dominant acting dogs that have gone at each other (and have had clueless, not-paying-attention owners) so she should be fine in that regard. There is a calming signals book available thru dogwise that can help you pick up on the signals of aggession and dominance. Just my .02, your mileage may vary.

 

Good luck, glad to hear that things are looking up!

[Vickkers]

I'm so sorry to hear this Bindi Mom. I don't have any advice for you but I know what it's like when not everyone is 100% committed and it's TOUGH! My thoughts are with you.