aggression

[esox]

I have a female BC named Alex. She will be 3 on April 3rd. She is the best dog I have ever had. I can't believe how obedient she is and how we have bonded. The only problem is her aggression. It started with small children and we dealt with that. Now it is a random thing. The last time there was a problem she followed an adult out of the house. She was growling very low and was in the herding pose the whole time. She responded to corrections, but then went right back to what she wanted; which was to get this person out of the house.

 

I'm going to try and attach a picture of her and her 2 Labrador brothers.

[MaggieDog]

The first thing I'd do in your situation would be to put her up when visitors are in the house - the behavior you describe often ends with a bite to the backside of the leaving human and you **really** don't want her practicing that behavior.

 

Next thing to do: find and set up an appointment with a VETERINARY behaviorist. There are many people out there claiming to be behaviorists that really don't have the training or experience to help treat human related aggression. A vet behaviorist can prescribe meds in addition to helping with behavior mod exercises.

[haleigh]

First, do NOT correct growling. What you'll create is a dog who will attack without warning. Second, it's kind of hard to figure out what's triggering the aggression with out more info. Also, it'll help if we can know what kind of basic OB she has under her belt

 

 

How old was she when you got her?

Is it a specific gender?

A specific age group?

How are you 'correcting' her behavior?

Is she crate trained?

Does she have a strong stay (either sit, stand or down)?

How long has this been occuring?

Is she more food or toy motivated?

What ear position does she have when she growls?

How about tail?

General body (stiff, relaxed, etc.)?

How is she when the person first walks in the house?

How about immediately after they leave (relaxes, stays tense, paces, scared)?

Do the adults in question touch you, or anything that the dog might perceive as a threat? (note: my own father can't touch me around Joy, or else she'll growl, snap and bite...this includes hugs and hi fives)

 

 

Generally, I'd take the dog in question on leash. You'd be armed with a favorite toy or treat, whichever the dog prefers. A person would walk in the door, and I would walk across the room to greet the person. The SECOND she starts posturing, I would back up a few paces before she broke threshold and started to feel uncomfortable. Mark the spot with a ruler if you have to. Throw the toy or treats to your helper, and tell them to avert their eyes, crouch down, turn their body to the side, and lick their lips. These are calming signals in the dog world, and will probably confuse the dog why a mean person is doing that. When she's not growling and semi-relaxed (wait a half hour if you need...you can even massage to speed up the process), have the person toss Alex some treats to her, or the toy. If it's the toy she likes, encourage her to bring it back to them. If she's looking tense or nervous, you play with her for a minute, then give it back to the helper. Do this for about five minutes. Then, if she has a good stay, have her stay on one side of the room while you sit with your helper on the other side. Talk, and ignore her. Every couple of minutes, have the helper throw the treats across the room.

 

Hopefully, by now, she'll be comfortable enough to walk around the guest without growling. Have them throw the toy, but remind them not to touch her. No pets or anything. Don't let them talk to her, except for telling her release, or drop it. No eye contact. The person cannot be seen as a threat.

 

If she can't be trusted in a stay, put her in a crate in the same place you would put her in a stay. Have the guest toss treats into the crate. Then you can take her onleash, on the other side of the room, while the helper tosses toys and treats.

 

 

Hope that helps! I also suggest you get help from a behaviorist, as aggression varies by dog.

[esox]

First, do NOT correct growling. What you'll create is a dog who will attack without warning. Second, it's kind of hard to figure out what's triggering the aggression with out more info. Also, it'll help if we can know what kind of basic OB she has under her belt

How old was she when you got her?

Is it a specific gender?

A specific age group?

How are you 'correcting' her behavior?

Is she crate trained?

Does she have a strong stay (either sit, stand or down)?

How long has this been occuring?

Is she more food or toy motivated?

What ear position does she have when she growls?

How about tail?

General body (stiff, relaxed, etc.)?

How is she when the person first walks in the house?

How about immediately after they leave (relaxes, stays tense, paces, scared)?

Do the adults in question touch you, or anything that the dog might perceive as a threat? (note: my own father can't touch me around Joy, or else she'll growl, snap and bite...this includes hugs and hi fives)

Generally, I'd take the dog in question on leash. You'd be armed with a favorite toy or treat, whichever the dog prefers. A person would walk in the door, and I would walk across the room to greet the person. The SECOND she starts posturing, I would back up a few paces before she broke threshold and started to feel uncomfortable. Mark the spot with a ruler if you have to. Throw the toy or treats to your helper, and tell them to avert their eyes, crouch down, turn their body to the side, and lick their lips. These are calming signals in the dog world, and will probably confuse the dog why a mean person is doing that. When she's not growling and semi-relaxed (wait a half hour if you need...you can even massage to speed up the process), have the person toss Alex some treats to her, or the toy. If it's the toy she likes, encourage her to bring it back to them. If she's looking tense or nervous, you play with her for a minute, then give it back to the helper. Do this for about five minutes. Then, if she has a good stay, have her stay on one side of the room while you sit with your helper on the other side. Talk, and ignore her. Every couple of minutes, have the helper throw the treats across the room.

 

Hopefully, by now, she'll be comfortable enough to walk around the guest without growling. Have them throw the toy, but remind them not to touch her. No pets or anything. Don't let them talk to her, except for telling her release, or drop it. No eye contact. The person cannot be seen as a threat.

 

If she can't be trusted in a stay, put her in a crate in the same place you would put her in a stay. Have the guest toss treats into the crate. Then you can take her onleash, on the other side of the room, while the helper tosses toys and treats.

Hope that helps! I also suggest you get help from a behaviorist, as aggression varies by dog.

She was 6 weeks and 2 days old when I got her. She mainly has issues with children. Only one man and one elderly lady have seen her aggressive side. Actually 2 men; one she barked to let me know he was in the vicinity and he proceeded to bark and growl at her. She was not amused. I don't correct her growling or barking. I tell her that'll do after a little bit. I correct her further aggression by distracting her attention to me and making her sit or heel. Yes she is crate trained and has a strong stay. She is not at all food motivated. Her world revolves around her frisbee. Her tail and ear position vary. The 2 men her tail was up and her ears were pinned. Otherwise it starts with her tail down. She is very tense. When a person first walks into the house she barks, but once I have spoken to them she generally is fine. Outside, she doesn't want anyone that I have not spoken to to get within about 4 ft. of me. If she knows you and you touch me she will come over to investigate, but that's all. She's fine once the offender (in her eyes) is gone. She is the best dog I have ever had. I always had German Shepherds and Norwegian Elkhounds, but she is amazing. The one other thing she insists on with strangers, she approaches you. She will not accept someone approaching her if she has not made a move. She'll mind me and stay, but she's not happy about it.

[sunshian]

Does anyone else read this as protective instead of aggressive? Sounds like she feels she has to protect you.

[dogsofmenace]

There have been a lot of good suggestions so far but I'll put my 2 cents worth in. First off, as someone else said, she needs a complete medical checkup.If there is a problem with her thyroid it may lead to aggression. If she gets a clean bill of health then you can try to change her behavior. I agree with sunshian that it may be protective and very likely its a territorial thing. Is she clicker trained? Clicker training is the way I would go with it. I would suggest that you get the books "Click to Calm" by Emma Parsons and "Control Unleashed" by Leslie McDevitt. Both GREAT books that help tremendously with aggressive, fearful, territorial, etc dogs. It might take a long time--there is never a quick fix for behavior problems--but in the long run it should help tremendously. In the meantime, I would suggest that you crate her or put her away when people come to your house so she never gets the chance to become aggressive while you're training her. If you don't put her up, you need to make sure your guests completely ignore her, and if she calms down a little they can throw her frisbee for her. Make the sessions short if you can. Put her up after a little while or arrange for people to come to your house very briefly. I think hayleigh also had some great suggestions for it. Whatever you do, do not correct her behavior. It will only make it worse. Good luck with her!

[Shetlander]

Does anyone else read this as protective instead of aggressive? Sounds like she feels she has to protect you.

 

It doesn't sound like protection to me. Small children and people walking away from you aren't active threats. Children can be weird and worrisome to dogs. And someone walking away from you is an easier/safer target to chase or bite. With only a very brief description of the issue, I'd say this was fear aggression.

[Maralynn]

(note: my own father can't touch me around Joy, or else she'll growl, snap and bite...this includes hugs and hi fives)

 

Umm, why is that sort of behavior allowed? I would be working very, very hard to correct that sort of behavior. Your dog could end up in big trouble because of it.

[kelpiegirl]

A good rule of thumb- dogs who approach someone from behind them, run up, growl/snap/bite, are exhibiting fear aggression. Dogs that face the interloper (as seen by the dog) and move toward the person, or stand their ground are exhibiting dominant aggression. MANY dogs bites occur from the former. These dogs will seemingly be fine- someone will pet them, they will get up to walk away, and BAM the dog nails them- classic fear aggression. No aggression is fine- even though they are founded in real fears/dominance. For fear aggression you need to re-associate people with good things- so, for this, a good behaviourist is a good start.

[Shetlander]

Umm, why is that sort of behavior allowed? I would be working very, very hard to correct that sort of behavior. Your dog could end up in big trouble because of it.

 

Oh, somehow I missed this. Yes, that behavior should never be allowed and needs to be worked ASAP. Our dogs do not tell us who we can interact with. Or at least, they shouldn't think they have that right/responsibility. We are in charge. We make those decisions.

[esox]

I did work with one trainer. She was very good except she insisted that Alex must be food motivated. I explained that she wasn't and that was fine with me. She said the training would not work without food motivation. Alex is getting better and I am continuing to work with her. She knows that I am in charge, but I feel she should at least be able to voice her opinion and the final say is mine. I am very interested in any ideas on how to work with her on re-associating people with good things.

One thing I should have mentioned and I can't believe I forgot it. We have several cats and one of them,Tony, is very close to me. He came up to me for attention and Alex had a fit. I told her never mind and gave her a neck scratch when she backed off. I pet Tony for a couple minutes and went back to watching TV. I saw a movement out of the corner of my eye and she had picked Tony up and was shaking him. I corrected her firmly and thankfully he is fine. Surprisingly he still adores her.

[Shetlander]

I did work with one trainer. She was very good except she insisted that Alex must be food motivated. I explained that she wasn't and that was fine with me. She said the training would not work without food motivation.

 

So the trainer had no other options than using food rewards? Have you tried using her dinner as the rewards when her appetite may be keener?

 

Alex is getting better and I am continuing to work with her. She knows that I am in charge, but I feel she should at least be able to voice her opinion and the final say is mine.

 

I think I understand what you're saying, but I believe you are making a serious mistake with this dog. She is responding out of fear with some of these "opinions." She needs to learn to look to you when she is uncertain and feel confident that you will handle things. Personally, I'm not interested in my dog's opinion when I'm interacting with other people. My dog's job is to behave himself as he has (hopefully) been trained. We do not need to encourage "protectiveness" in dogs. If we are truly in danger, they'll either jump in to help us or not by their nature and temperament. The biggest protection dogs offer is simply their presence. Potential criminals see them as a hassle (barking) and possible danger (biting).

 

I pet Tony for a couple minutes and went back to watching TV. I saw a movement out of the corner of my eye and she had picked Tony up and was shaking him. I corrected her firmly and thankfully he is fine. Surprisingly he still adores her.

 

This is very serious. I'm surprised the cat was ok after that attack. At least Alex must be inhibiting her bite if there were no punctures, but shaking animals by the neck is how dogs kill them. Next time your cat may not be so fortunate.

 

I'd find another behavioralist to help you with this dog. You are describing fear aggressive and resource guarding. This is very dangerous territory for animals and people alike. And it isn't much fun for a dog who is frightened or insecure yet feels she must be in charge at all times. Please make some changes in how you are handling this dog before something happens that you will always regret.

 

Your dog may be listening to you at times, but I honestly don't think she views you as in charge or that she feels secure. I'm not trying to be harsh. I just don't think you are going to get the help you need off the Internet. You need someone skilled and knowledgeable to assist you with this in person.

[Ruger's Dad]

Alex sounds a bit like Ruger. From what I have gathered from this board, most of the Border Collies are easy going. Ruger is very protective of the yard and house. I have to really watch him whenever someone comes to the house. If he starts growling, I DON'T have a problem stopping him. In a lot of ways he is an excellent watch dog.

 

I grew up around German Shepherds. Talk about watch dogs, they are the best. The last one we owned was probably tops. A lot of people were afraid of him but he is the dog you wanted in the house while you were gone or just there at night.

 

Here is my two cents worth:

1. Don't let your dog outside of the fenced yard unless you are there also.

2. You need to be able to have total control. I can call Ruger off chasing a cat. That's a pretty good accomplishment.

3. Make sure when you do have somebody over that you tell Alex its okay. You need to do this before any aggressive behavior is exhibited. I won't open the door until I have Ruger by the collar.

4. Firmly correct unwanted behavior towards guests.

5. Take your dog to the park, Pet Smart, little league games, or just whatever you can do to introduce her to people. Ruger has learned young and old can throw a frisbee or spray him with a hose.

 

Good dogs are born every day, a great dog takes work. Good luck.

[haleigh]

QUOTE(Maralynn @ Jan 28 2008, 05:12 PM) *

Umm, why is that sort of behavior allowed? I would be working very, very hard to correct that sort of behavior. Your dog could end up in big trouble because of it.

 

 

Oh, somehow I missed this. Yes, that behavior should never be allowed and needs to be worked ASAP. Our dogs do not tell us who we can interact with. Or at least, they shouldn't think they have that right/responsibility. We are in charge. We make those decisions.

 

 

Oh, I agree one hundred percent! I'm not saying I'm allowing it, I'm just saying she does that. Joy is NOT allowed to lay teeth on ANYONE, whether play or not. She's immediately corrected.

[esox]

So the trainer had no other options than using food rewards? Have you tried using her dinner as the rewards when her appetite may be keener?

 

The dogs are on a strict feeding routine. After we put the bowls down they have 15 minutes to eat it. I briefly tried giving her dinner as rewards, but she was confused and went into her crate.

 

I think I understand what you're saying, but I believe you are making a serious mistake with this dog. She is responding out of fear with some of these "opinions." She needs to learn to look to you when she is uncertain and feel confident that you will handle things. Personally, I'm not interested in my dog's opinion when I'm interacting with other people. My dog's job is to behave himself as he has (hopefully) been trained. We do not need to encourage "protectiveness" in dogs. If we are truly in danger, they'll either jump in to help us or not by their nature and temperament. The biggest protection dogs offer is simply their presence. Potential criminals see them as a hassle (barking) and possible danger (biting).

This is very serious. I'm surprised the cat was ok after that attack. At least Alex must be inhibiting her bite if there were no punctures, but shaking animals by the neck is how dogs kill them. Next time your cat may not be so fortunate.

 

I'd find another behavioralist to help you with this dog. You are describing fear aggressive and resource guarding. This is very dangerous territory for animals and people alike. And it isn't much fun for a dog who is frightened or insecure yet feels she must be in charge at all times. Please make some changes in how you are handling this dog before something happens that you will always regret.

 

Your dog may be listening to you at times, but I honestly don't think she views you as in charge or that she feels secure. I'm not trying to be harsh. I just don't think you are going to get the help you need off the Internet. You need someone skilled and knowledgeable to assist you with this in person.

[esox]

Any advice on how to find a good trainer to help me with Alex? The last one was nice and all. I just have a problem with the whole food motivation. She is motivated by her frisbee, tennis balls, and her stuffed toys. The trainer said it wasn't possible to use those. I don't want to just pop open the phone book and pick any trainer. There has to be a better way.

[Michelle K]

The first thing I'd do in your situation would be to put her up when visitors are in the house - the behavior you describe often ends with a bite to the backside of the leaving human and you **really** don't want her practicing that behavior.

 

Next thing to do: find and set up an appointment with a VETERINARY behaviorist. There are many people out there claiming to be behaviorists that really don't have the training or experience to help treat human related aggression. A vet behaviorist can prescribe meds in addition to helping with behavior mod exercises.

 

One thing I wanted to mention, though. Of course, I'm not there, so I'm not seeing first hand what is going on. The only problem I have with this is that if you put her up when visitors are there, you're not fixing the problem. The way I've handled aggression and visitors is that I put the dog on a leash while visitors are there. Now there were times that I would have to put the dog up due to us trying to eat or participating in some type of activity, but I've seen what can happen by putting a dog up every time someone comes over. My parents had a Poodle years ago that they always put to bed every time someone came over. As he got older, he could not be out whatsoever when people came around, because he was very aggressive to visitors. I do agree with having her fully vet checked and talking with a behaviorist, but just keep in mind about what I mentioned. Good luck!

[nancy in AZ]

I don't want to just pop open the phone book and pick any trainer. There has to be a better way.

 

Just ot respond briefly, under these circumstances forewarned is forearmed. Do all the research you can so you have an understanding of what to look for in a viable candidate. You need to have a sense of which approach is appropriate and what is unacceptable before subjecting your dog to any professional interaction. Listen to your gut.

 

Use the search function on these boards to read prior threads about aggression issues. There are several threads in the archives section of the boards. Here are just a couple:

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...p;hl=aggression

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...t=0&start=0

 

 

You can do some preliminary things to work with your dog such as the protocol for relaxation and NILF (do a google search). I think you can find out about it on this website and there is a wealth of info here:

http://www.k9aggression.com/Aggression/aggression_main.html

 

Do a search for articles on aggression by Dr. Karen Overall. I'd also recommend reading Patricia McConnell's manual :The Cautious Canine

 

And lastly, if I were in your shoes (and I have been), do not permit your dog to be present in any situation where she has the oppportunity or inclination to act out until you're well started on a path toward progress.

[KJ]

I second everything Nancy said for sure. There's also an aggression dog forum on Yahoo called AGBEH. It's run by Barbara Brill. There are many trainers on it and people are really supportive and helpful. But just so ya know you've got to follow the rules to a T and that means posting exactly how they say to.

 

Also its really helpful to get an idea of what kind of aggression so you can follow various protocols. I found it tough to determine what kind my Aussie had b/c I would say (and still wold if I hadn't been told otherwise) that he had both-dominance and fear. Dominance b/c he's trying to call the shots with his growling. lunging and occasional biting and fear b/c he seems afraid of what people might do to him-how they might inflict pain or something. Anyway, I was told he had "impulse-control aggression." I have been so focused on that kind, that I don't know a lot about the other types...just know the approaches can be different.

 

Oh and on that k9aggression site I believe there is a list of behaviorist but I really really do the research first. Its an unregulated feild so anyone can call themselves one. Perhaps the AGBEH group can help you find one.

 

All good hope your way and continued success too!

[Soda-pop]

http://www.animalbehavior.org/ABSAppliedBe.../caab-directory

 

here is a good starting point. good luck.

[nancy in AZ]

One thing I wanted to mention, though. Of course, I'm not there, so I'm not seeing first hand what is going on. The only problem I have with this is that if you put her up when visitors are there, you're not fixing the problem. The way I've handled aggression and visitors is that I put the dog on a leash while visitors are there. Now there were times that I would have to put the dog up due to us trying to eat or participating in some type of activity,

 

I think this can still be problematic because the average person doesn't realize that they are communicating to a dog through body language (e.g. standing directly in front, leaning over, initiating contact, looking directly into eyes, etc) and can easily unwittingly exacerbate the situation where an anxious/fearful /aggressive dog is concerned.

[HighDesertSpice]

Do a search for articles on aggression by Dr. Karen Overall.

 

About Karen Overall's Book:

 

Essential reading for anyone serious about animals, June 13, 2001

By E. TeSelle "pawsplus" (Nashville, TN United States) - See all my reviews

 

 

I have consulted with Dr. Overall in the treatment of a dog we rescued who has OCD, and in addition, I have also read her book cover to cover three times. There are a lot of books on this topic -- both for veterinarians and for lay people -- out there, but this one is the best. Dr. Overall, unlike a number of vets (even veterinary behaviorists) truly understands the nature of dog behavior -- and the importance of positive reinforcement in shapingn it. She is my hero, and I recommend this book to anyone who has a serious interest in animal behavior.

 

I'd also recommend reading Patricia McConnell's manual :The Cautious Canine

 

About Patricia McConnell's book:

 

Cautious Canine by McConnell, February 13, 2007

By J. Accardo "greylover" (West Linn, Oregon) - See all my reviews

 

 

This short little book is wonderful. It concisely explains the counter-conditioning method to help your fearful/aggressive dog cope with their problem. McConnell makes is clear to understanding not only how to practice the method, but why it can work. From barking at the doorbell and guests, to aggressively barking at other dogs and people, this little book can help make life better for both the dog and the owner.

 

Edit: removed Poster's Note.

[Shetlander]

Poster's note: Point of warning however: These books are not pc to "how we do things" per this Board.

 

With as many people as we have on these boards, wouldn't it be more accurate to say it's not "how some members do things?"

[Journey]

This short little book is wonderful. It concisely explains the counter-conditioning method to help your fearful/aggressive dog cope with their problem. McConnell makes is clear to understanding not only how to practice the method, but why it can work. From barking at the doorbell and guests, to aggressively barking at other dogs and people, this little book can help make life better for both the dog and the owner.

 

Poster's note: Point of warning however: These books are not pc to "how we do things" per this Board.

 

 

What's the "note" about?

 

There are many various ways to train a dog and various behaviors that owners have to deal with. Each dog and each situation can be different. Fear Aggression and Car Chasing are at opposite ends of the spectrum IMO.

 

Karen

[HighDesertSpice]

Clicker training is the way I would go with it. I would suggest that you get the books "Click to Calm" by Emma Parsons and "Control Unleashed" by Leslie McDevitt. Both GREAT books that help tremendously with aggressive, fearful, territorial, etc dogs. It might take a long time--there is never a quick fix for behavior problems--but in the long run it should help tremendously.

 

The CU techniques work. My foster was snarly and fangy, but not exactly in the way you describe. In a group setting, we used some of the CU techniques and the dog relaxed and was able to refocus on me and the training at hand.

 

EDIT: I also want to add though that I didn't raise this dog and so I felt I needed to establish trust with him, and that is where the CU techniques were helpful. I'm not sure what I would do if I had raised the dog and he was showing too much aggression.