Presence vs. Power

[Valhalla]

Originally posted by Jennifer Glen:

...Jed is a dog that if you want him to go forward, you only have to let up on the brake. Bob, you gotta use the gas pedle hard, and to the floor to keep him in the game.

What a great analogy Jen!! And I also agree that power is NOT over-rated. I'll take a powerful, pushy dog that has to be steadied constantly, than one that has to begged on to sheep. That goes for too much eye as well... I don't like dogs with a lot of eye. Maybe I'd feel differently if I knew how to work them properly, but it just frustrates the heck out of me.

 

Deb, regarding coat color... I have also heard that coat color does matter when it comes to how the sheep read the dog, like Mark said. I've also heard the same about dogs with light eyes, but I disagree with that one. Perhaps because sheep can't see gradients of black and white, they are more intimidated by a black dog? Who knows? Gee, if we could just get into the minds of sheep, we'd win a lot more dog trials!

[Wendy V]

"Sheep must be convinced by the light colored dogs more than they do by black dogs. But a light colored dog with power will move sheep that are testing."

 

Agreed, Mark, power will move sheep, regardless of color. However, if a light colored dog is constantly being tested by the sheep, won't that create weakness in a dog over time? It might be interesting to know if cattle perceive light colored dogs differently than sheep do. Many cattle dog advertizements show red dogs.

 

Deb: the black and white speck of a dog at a distance is easier to see than a red and white speck. This alone could be the shepherd's preference for black dogs.

 

Wendy V

[laurie etc]

Originally posted by Wendy V:

Deb: the black and white speck of a dog at a distance is easier to see than a red and white speck. This alone could be the shepherd's preference for black dogs.

 

Wendy V

When I was in the UK a few years ago watching Jim Cropper work his flock on the hills, I noticed that the forage of the early spring pasture was just about the same color as a red dog. Jim's traditional black-tri dog was a mere black speck out across the hills, a red dog would have been totally invisible. It makes perfect sense why black is "preferred" in England and Wales.

When I was in Ireland, where much of the terrain is much more broken up - I did not notice such a distinct preference. I saw quite a few "highly white factored" and merle dogs working sheep on the farms. But then, the Irish are famous for their grey horses, too.

[Jennifer Glen]

I think the sheep do see the colors differently. All I know is weak Bob could stop sheep that were trying to go over an all white dog (with MUCH better breeding than the AKC Bob dog) with no problem and they just ignored the white dog. Red dogs seem to hang in there but one big hat (not he who shall remain nameless) once told me that they get sticky after time because it takes more effort to lift and keep the sheep moving. Less presence perceived by the sheep. Basically, they have it in them to do it just as good, but since the sheep don't respect them, they have to work harder. Cattle don't seem to have this hang up. I know white dogs that do just fine with cattle and we all know how red dogs are a cowboy fashion accessory!

Now, obvously a white face/black body isn't a problem, 'cause look at all the international champions marked that way. I wonder if all white dogs have a problem because most sheep are used to white guardian dogs?

Jenny Glen

[SoloRiver]

I'm not sure there's enough data to deterimine whether the color thing is a real phenomenon or a case of sampling error/observer bias. There are fewer colored dogs to begin with, and many of those will have been bred for perhaps not the best reasons. If I were a trainer giving lessons it would be a pretty fair bet that most of my red students or merle students would be sport-bred dogs, and the odds are good that dogs bred like that are going to have deficiencies when it comes to sheep. And I'd be a lot more likely to remember a crappy red dog than a crappy black dog, simply because the red dog is less common and more memorable. There are certainly plenty of weak black dogs out there.

 

There also might be a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy involved here -- people don't expect colored dogs to be any good, working handlers prefer not to buy and train them, so you end up with two samples (colored vs. black) that are not really very comparable to each other.

 

I'm not ruling out the possibility that color matters. One of the things I'm planning to explore in my research is whether there is any truth to the red dog stereotype, for which Solo is pretty much the poster child. It's common enough across breeds that you have to start thinking where there's smoke, there's fire. If, for example, red dogs are just inherently weird for some reason that is connected to their color, it would make sense that they have difficulties on stock related to these weirdnesses (lack of confidence, unpredictability, whatever). So it might not be that the sheep perceive color itself in any particular way -- given their limited spectrum of color vision, I wonder how different a red dog really looks to them -- but that they are perceiving something else that these dogs have in common that is less obvious to human eyes.

 

Red Solo is not a great working dog (though he has an overabundance of want and try and a great big motor on him, bless his heart), but he's a really good example of how much confidence matters and how it may be related to power. Solo has his good days and his bad days working sheep -- he has it in him to be wonderful, but he's wildly inconsistent and doesn't handle pressure well. And if he's just feeling off in general he's basically useless. On days that he's feeling his oats he radiates presence that makes it difficult for him to get anywhere near sheep (and he lacks the finesse to tone it down, so it's hard for me to work around). I've used him to move sheep that Fly couldn't shift an inch, with boldness and push and accuracy and even a tiny bit of style (he is a very plain worker), keeping everyone calm and no one thinking of challenging him. But I've also seen sheep totally ignore him, I mean totally, completely ignore him, if he's just not feeling quite full enough of himself. (I call this latter dog Bizarro Solo. Bizarro Solo is who showed up the two times I attempted to run Solo in a trial, which I guess is better than not being able to call him off the sheep. I guess.)

 

Of course, a dog with psychiatric problems is probably not the best example to be looking at here, but it's a striking example of how much confidence matters.

 

Fly is a lot harder for me to evaluate. My impression of her has historically been that she is one of those sweet, quiet, unintimidating dogs who sheep trust, and that she was anywhere from a tad to quite weak. She's not crazy about going into tight spaces to get sheep, doesn't like to walk up on sheep who are facing her (she's also got tons of eye and gets sticky), and has no grip to speak of. But, the less time on sheep she has (I have not been able to work my dogs regularly for a while now), the more oomph she has. She was imported as a three year old and is six now, and I kind of wonder if someone over there hadn't trained her up as a nursery dog and really screwed her down for trials or something, and that maybe now she feels like she can finally let down her hair. I still wouldn't call her a powerhouse, but she isn't as weak as I thought she was.

 

So maybe it's about confidence and initiative.

 

Speaking about confidence and initiative, the dog below can also move sheep, purely on the basis of his outsize prey drive and sense of self:

 

 

Skeeter will go between sheep and the fence. He's mostly white, too.

[J.E.S]

A few thoughts from a novice.

I have a white faced dog that would get a response from sheep the minute he stepped into an arena. He is very unconfident, but thinks he knows much more than I do. He has to be begged up but he does have eye which gets him in trouble. His full sister (a tri) is extremely pushy and intense but very very weak. She will just keep going right through the sheep if you don't stop her, but will slide off the pressure if the sheep are facing her. My white face dog is great with ewes with lambs. He will only herd the ewe, ignoring the lamb and if the ewe challenges he will grip the nose but hold his ground. He has no problem at all in very tight quarters with lots of sheep. But he has a lot of experience which I believe helps him. The female does not do well in tight quarters and even though she is not a young dog and has lots of experience, if she is trying to get sheep out of a corner and they wont' move she just loses her mind and will not flank around them to get them out of the corner.

I have a 2 yr old with limited experience that isn't especially strong I don't think, but is very brave. He will go between sheep and fence in very tight quarters but it does stress him. He will do it though because he is brave. He has no fear of getting trampled because when put under too much pressure instead of gripping while flanking he will go under the sheep and come up trying to flip it over. He has never broken skin on a sheep, but when stressed he definitely will take it out on the sheep. Experience might cure this. My other dog who is from some top lines, has a lot of talent, a beautiful outrun, natural square flanks, will walk up with no stickyness and will walk straight in, but he will NOT go between sheep and a fence no matter how much I have worked with him.

So, which if any has power or presence? Which is weak? Maybe there are situations where they are weak in one area yet strong in another? The more I think on it the more confused I become.

 

Joan

[Jennifer Glen]

Joan,

Your white faced dog is one of the reasons I don't discount the white face with black bodies dogs since he is a grandson of MacPhearson's Zach and his exact twin in looks. Obviously Zach had no problem with sheep and his white face as he won the Internationals twice. Your Seth does get a respose from sheep that is for sure. They respect him and move off him, he just doesn't realize it sometimes. I think some of these weak dogs gain their confidence from their handlers. Seth and my Bob are awsome at hand. I've seen Seth do set out and you've told me you never had a better partner. Put Bob in an arena and he'll give you a run for your money. When I'm in a trial, I think, "If I can just get through the drive, I can shed and pen no problem." Of course, if you run out of time on the drive, there will be no shed or pen so I don't run Bob careful on his outwork, but I settle him down and ask him to think when I get him at hand. For those who've never seen him, my Bob isn't color challenged. He's as steriotypical a border collie as you can get.

Jenny Glen

PS Melanie, Solo may have his problems, but his looks aren't one of them! I saw a picture you posted of him and he's beautiful!

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

I agree with Melanie about this. Considering how few good and competent handlers choose to train light-colored dogs, the number of them I've seen who do have power is enough to make me doubt the stereotype. If sheep turn to look at a light dog on the trial field, it may be simply because they've seldom if ever seen one before. If the dog approaches with determination and they move off, I doubt it would have an eroding effect on the dog's confidence. I have two dogs right now almost identical in color (traditional) but very different in power, and my sheep react very differently to them. I had a white dog in the past, and my sheep reacted to her much more the way they do to my powerful mostly-black dog than the way they do to my weak mostly-black dog. And rightly so.

 

Anyway, I've put my money where my mouth is -- here's my new pup:

 

[blackacre]

Cute! You might come out with a lot of ticking in the white, though, I've seen that happen.

What's the breeding Eileen?

A

[Eileen Stein]

Other people have said they thought he might be going to develop a lot of ticking. I kinda doubt it, but I wouldn't mind either way. The Tweed look would be fine with me.

 

He's Heather's Phyl bred to Amanda's Bart. Amanda took a mostly black pup from the same litter, but beware of drawing any color-based conclusions when her pup turns out to do a lot better than mine!

[Bill Fosher]

I think that presence is a component of power; power being a package that's made up of confidence, experience, presence, talent, work ethic, and probably a dozen other traits. So there are powerful dogs that have less presence than other powerful dogs -- they make up the difference with confidence, talent, or whatever else they have.

[Wendy V]

Cute, Eileen! And, I've taken the coward's way out, as my pup is almost solid black. Observer bias exists, of course, but ewes with lambs will charge my red dog and my overwhite dog but don't give a second thought to the black one. I will have to reassert my opinion that I think that confidence erodes over time with contunual confrontation. However, confidence can be gained with speciific training exercies that emphasizes "push".

 

Regards,

 

Wendy V

[Deb Mickey]

Cute puppy, Eileen! oooo I may be getting puppy-itist!

 

Here's another ponder... I understand that in Dalmatians overly white dogs can have deafness. Any indications of this in bcs?

[Eileen Stein]

Certainly there's deafness in double merles, who are often totally white or close to it. Deafness related to white factoring, OTOH, hasn't been studied in border collies. There are scientists who believe that it is likely the cause of the very rare incidents of deafness in mostly white BCs, or even in traditionally-marked mostly black BCs from litters where there was a white pup. But nobody really knows -- actually, nobody even knows what percentage of border collies of any coloration are congenitally deaf.

 

It IS known that this Dalmatian type of deafness (called sensorineural deafness) is associated with the absence of pigmentation cells in the inner ear. Whether and to what extent this is related to lack of pigmentation elsewhere is unclear, especially if (as most people think) whiteness on the head in border collies is governed by a different gene than whiteness on the body.

 

In any case, VERY, VERY few mostly white border collies are congenitally deaf, and since dogs with congenital sensorineural deafness have lost their hearing by 5 or 6 weeks old, my little pup is safe.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

>>In any case, .... my little pup is safe.<<

 

Ha, I bet you will be singing a different tune when your pup doesn't hear the *down* command.....

 

He is a really cute pup. I have a mostly white Border Collie and she had no problems with her hearing when she was younger...try to open a bag of chips while she was dead asleep downstairs and she will race up to you with tail wagging and ready to eat.

 

As for dogs with color, red and white, black and white, blue and white, tri color, mostly white Border Collies, I own all of the above. My sheep move well off all of them. All have different working styles.

 

Last week I had a Dorper Ram brought to my house. The old while Border Collie, Shiro, who is mostly blind and does has hearing loss to age and arthritic was assisting. The ram walked up to Bonnie and Shiro and thought about something but before he could do something the old, white bat reached out and gave him a quick grip on the nose the Mr. Ram decided to behave himself. Glad to see that she has something still there.

 

I believe it is what is in their heart that makes them a great dog and not the color.

 

Diane

[Tassie]

On the color thing - one of the top (disclaimer to add - 3 sheep trial) winning dogs in Tasmania is almost all white. Her working style is very smooth, full of understated confidence, and she has no trouble managing sheep in that context. Right from the start it's "Yes Mrs Sheepdog, where would you like us to go?" Her very experienced trial handler, now in his 80s, I believe, is very partial to white dogs.

[sasten]

Hi gang - now that we've had the power vs. presence vs. confidence input...

 

How about exercises for a young dog to develop confidence?

 

I have a young dog - littermate to Mark B's Jodi (odi odi) who has a great feel for her sheep, nice natural square flanks, lifts very nicely, as long as they'll move off. She is a dog who settles her sheep. She has a nice way calmly walking right into them, but if they don't move she'll stop - she won't flank off or take her eyes off of them, but doesn't know what to do if they won't move. She moves light and heavier sheep fine, but if they don't move at all (for example if they are being held on grain) she can't seem to push them, even if she holds her ground. She will grip when I encourage her. She doesn't have the natural presence to make them edgy just by the sight of her, but has plenty of quiet push, except in this instance.

 

We've been at a few trials (same sheep) where the sheep are pretty dog saavy, and once they get her number then the gig is up, and she has to fight to keep them from running to the exhaust.

 

I'm having her do lots of fetching and driving at her own speed,then toning her down when she needs it. Lots of driving sheep the way they want to go to help, and then sometimes walking her into tough sheep and helping her turn them and drive them with my close presence.

 

Other exercises to help? She's 20 months and driving with flank commands. I've been told that time and mileage will help as well.

 

Thanks and advance!

[Belleview]

Hey Sue-

 

Here's my take on this. I think the discussion of power v. confidence is fascinating...but since the dogs and sheep don't read our theories on it I look at it this way. *Most* of the time when the sheep won't move (like in the lift situation you describe), it's because the dog won't move...whether lack of confidence or eye. When I see this stuff happen, I am usually thinking to myself: if that dog would JUST walk up, likely the sheep would move off. It's the dog stopping, and refusing to move or hesitating that allows the sheep to "get their number."

 

So, I spend tons of time with my dogs on simply "walking up". Period. Maybe some would say that I'm treating the symptom, rather than the disease-- but when I say walk up, I expect a walk up...as in move your dog feet & walk up. No negotiation. Move forward. Regardless of whether the hesitation is lack of confidence or eye, whatever...just move forward. If I have to walk with the dog in the beginning to bouy its confidence or slap my leg & give quick encouraging commands to get it moving...no problem.

 

*Most* of the time, if the dog keeps moving forward, the sheep are going to move. It follows that if it's a confidence issue, the dog wins & confidence builds. If they don't move, the dog gets to flurry or grip whatever is in front of them to get them moving. I don't make a big deal out of it. Just settle things down & continue the training. (I believe that when you trust your dog WILL walk in when you ask it in a difficult situation, you've positioned yourself to avoid a lot of grips.)

 

I practice this is a bunch of situations with the youngsters. Prob. the most common is right after I fill the hay feeders, I'll have the youngster walk up & push the sheep off, let them drift back & do it again. Any time or place the sheep don't want to move or your dog looks stuck is an opportunity.

 

One more thing- I also suspect that for alot of handlers, their walk up whistle is one of their least "punchy" whistles. If one of my dogs is hesitating at all on the walk up--for any reason--I go to voice pretty quickly. My voice command for walk up is "up! up!" because I think it sounds like the whistle. Since you know my dogs, I'll add that I use this the most with Tess who has the most eye. If she gets stuck, my voice snaps her out of it much more effectively than a whistle.

 

For what it's worth!!

 

See you this weekend.

[Shoofly]

I'm with Lori, i want a "walk up or die" command on my dogs, though it can be hard to get.

 

You wrote << I'm having her do lots of fetching and driving at her own speed,then toning her down when she needs it. >>

 

Have you taught her to walk on *faster* than she or the sheep want? Like really getting up and moving the sheep in a hurry, even to the point of running through the group. Sometimes we forget to train the rough work because we're so concerned about the pretty stuff. I find that to build confidence a lot.

[juliepoudrier]

I did something similar with Twist to what Lori and Robin describe. Although she doesn't generally stop (though she has right much eye, she will keep walking in until the sheep move), I wanted to put a command on her that meant "I want you to really push." I accomplished this by working her on the whole flock (60+ sheep) and * jogging * along with her behind the sheep, driving them around the field. Having a big group meant she really had to push even just to walk them along, much less get them trotting. As we did this I put a voice command and a whistle to it. Now if I give her that whistle (or voice) she will really start pushing. On heavy sheep that may just mean a faster walk and on lighter sheep it generally means she and the sheep are trotting. It's not so much a "walk up or die" command as it's a "hurry things along now" command.

 

J.

[Pipedream Farm]

hey Sue. I do something similar to Julie with Brook's half-sis, Rae. I get the whole flock and practice speeding her up and slowing her down. When I would get her going fast, I would give her a different walk-up whistle. It's more of a quick "chirp-chirp." When I want her to slow back down, then I change to more of a slow, monotone type walk up. Sometimes I have to tell her "time" to get it started. You can get started teaching this by doing balance. Move very slowly yourself to make small changes in balance, then move more quickly when you want to speed up. Some days when I take Rae out to work, that's all I do,just drive the sheep around the field and practice "all the gears." She really seems to enjoy it, it's kind of fun.

Renee

[sasten]

Great suggestions, thanks!

 

I especially like the walk up or die theory, I "ahem" haven't had to work on that one before...more the opposite.

 

I like the changing gears theory too - thanks all. See most of you at Tom's in a few days!

[Wendy V]

One of my favorite exercises to put more "push" in my dogs is to have the dog drive a group of sheep through deep snow. Take Julie's method and add about 2-3 feet of snow. The sheep balk at first but the dogs tend to get into the spirit of things.

 

Got into a bit of trouble with it, though. After two months of pushing wollies through snow, I attended a Jan. fun trial in KY which ran hair sheep with a downhill fetch. The dogs delighted in showing off their "push". Couldn't slow them down! Spend the rest of the spring working on pace.

 

Wendy V

[Bill Fosher]

sasten wrote:

How about exercises for a young dog to develop confidence?

Doing chores on a sheep farm will do wonders. Just work. Not schooling.

 

Lori wrote: *Most* of the time when the sheep won't move (like in the lift situation you describe), it's because the dog won't move...whether lack of confidence or eye.

 

I'd actually disagree with part of this. Often when a dog won't walk up it's because it has too much eye, not a lack of it. Dogs with a lot of eye can get very sticky, and will stand at the exact edge of the flight zone as if mesmerized.

 

That said, I do think there's an advantage to having a standard walk up whistle and a fast walk up whistle. There are times when the dog can take a moment to settle behind the sheep and scope out the situation, and there are times when it can't. The fast walk up whistle also becomes a grip whistle in tense situations, so it is to be used sparingly.

 

Another observation that I've made a couple of trials this season (it's good to be away from them for a while and then return) is that some handlers seem to train hesitance into their dogs. This really shows at the top end of the field when the outrun is longer than the dog is used to or the sheep are heavier than the dog is used to. I suspect that what may be happening in some of these cases is that the dog has been trained on flightly sheep like Katahdins, where a stealthy approach is essential to a controlled lift, and here the dog hits some stodgy Coopworth crosses 500 yards from his handler and is a litttle unsure what to do about it.

 

Here I think the problem is that the dog hasn't learned to read sheep very well perhaps because the trainer has substituted his or her judgment for that of the dog too many times -- too much schooling and not enough work.

[Zoe]

I am completely out of my depth here, but have to say that if I didn't live where I do, I think I would be seriously considering setting up as a sheep farmer............... I have gotten a lot of insights with regard to BCs and "training" in general if that isn't too strange a turn of phrase. Thank you !