Presence vs. Power

[Deb Mickey]

Ok. I know this has probably been discussed here before, but I'd like to hear everyone's definition/discussion on what power is and what presence is in a working dog.

 

How are they different? How are they the same, if they are? Can examples be given of what power in a dog looks like? Can a dog with weak power have strong presence? Can power and presence be brought out in a dog with training or are they ingrained traits that can't be changed?

 

Yep, seven years into this and still asking questions!

 

Thanks all!

[Shoofly]

Hey Deb - I was hoping someone else would pop up with an answer but since no one else has -- I think they're about same thing pretty much. Having said that though, a weak dog can fake power and convince the sheep he has presense, like a dog that slices and dices and doesn't slow down long enough to let the sheep figure out he's weak. When push comes to shove, it'll show though.

[Valhalla]

I agree with Robin that they are pretty similar. I don't think you can bring out power in a weak dog, but you can bring out confidence. So are presence and confidence the same thing?

 

One way to tell a weak dog from one with power is to work the dog on tough ewes with lambs. Or put some ornery sheep in a corner and have the dog walk up on the sheep. Does the dog walk straight into the sheeps faces without hesitation or do you have to beg it up? Will the dog bite on the nose if a sheep lowers her head/stomps or does the dog retreat?

 

Like Robin said though, you can have a weak dog that never slows down long enough for the sheep to read it. That dog could lack power, but have plenty of confidence (i.e. the dog does not know it's own weakness). You can put confidence into a weak dog and, in turn, that dog could convey more presence to the sheep.

 

There is also the opposite side of the spectrum. How about watching a dog that won't walk up onto sheep without being begged on fifty thousand times? Is that dog weak or is it strong-eyed? How do you know?

 

Age comes into play here as well. You wouldn't put a young, inexperienced dog on tough ewes and lambs because if the dog was challenged, it could take away any confidence that young dog has and then cause him/her to turn into a weak dog.

 

So many factors in this, aren't there?

[Shoofly]

There's another factor to add in there and that's bravery. And i think that's something that is a little bit situational as well. Lots of variables, or tools in the tool box, ya know?

[Pipedream Farm]

I usually associate power with confidence, or the ability of the dog to move unwilling livestock.

 

Presence I usually associate with how the sheep react; an out of control dog will have lots of presence causing the sheep to be nervous even at great distances. However, this dog may not have power once it has settled or if challenged.

 

Dogs with lots of presence need to work off the sheep farther than dogs with less presence. However, dogs with less presence can still have the power to move heavy sheep, but also are able to settle light sheep.

 

Hmmm, I'm not sure I clearly explained myself.

 

Mark

[Deacon Dog]

Fairly new at this, but FWIW I think of power as the physical distance the dog must be from stock to apply pressure and presence as the intelligence and courage the dog uses to effectively employ what power it has.

 

I believe that power differs among dogs, is inate and is an overrated quality. I believe that presence is a combination of inate and learned behaviors, can be situational and is a very important quality.

[Deb Mickey]

How about watching a dog that won't walk up onto sheep without being begged on fifty thousand times? Is that dog weak or is it strong-eyed? How do you know?

Now there's the rub for me! What if the dog is both (weak & strong-eyed)? Gulp! I think I know this dog. :eek: Is the panic in her eyes because she's weak or is it because her strong eye doesn't want any of the sheep to escape?

 

What's everyone's definition of "weak"?

[Shoofly]

How about watching a dog that won't walk up onto sheep without being begged on fifty thousand times? Is that dog weak or is it strong-eyed? How do you know?

A strong eyed dog will probably not want to move. A weak one that just can't get the sheep going will probably be trying to flank and move the sheep with its own movement and not be stuck in place by eye.

[Deb Mickey]

That makes sense! Thanks, Wobin!

[Shoofly]

No pwoblem.

[Shoofly]

Originally posted by Deacon Dog:

I believe that power differs among dogs, is inate and is an overrated quality. [/QB]

I have to say i disagree with this. I think power is a hard to define quality and not always the easiest to measure. But, when you have a dog that has it, it's a real treasure. It may not always be needed but when you need it, you need it. One of my dogs has a nice measure of power and it's a real comfort knowing it's there in her waiting to be used if needed. And it's not a comfortable feeling to have the wrong dog out to do a job and find you don't have power to fall back on when you need it.

[Valhalla]

Robin wrote:

 

"...it's a real comfort knowing it's there in her waiting to be used if needed. And it's not a comfortable feeling to have the wrong dog out to do a job and find you don't have power to fall back on when you need it."

 

Great statements Robin!

 

Here are two real life situations that I have encountered with my own dogs. Years ago I had a bitch who was run off the trial field by a sheep during the fetch. Embarrassing? You bet! Weak dog? Yes!

 

At Meeker this year, Rook was challenged two times at the drive away panels. He stood his ground with that ewe staring him in the face and when she lowered her head to butt him, he gripped her on the nose. She balked again after turning the panels and he bit her again - she went on her way after that with no more problems (and I was not DQ'ed as the judge felt the grips were necessary). Power? Yes.

 

Now... if that ewe at Meeker had turned on the first dog, she'd have been in my lap in a NY minute.

 

BUT.... here is another question... did that ewe read something in Rook to think she could challenge him in the first place? Or was she just one that would challenge regardless of who the dog was?

[Shoofly]

Or...did she challenge the last dog she met and beat it, making her more likely to challenge Rook when she met him?

[Valhalla]

Excellent point! And yet another option to consider because those sheep DID beat a lot of dogs!

[Jennifer Glen]

Mark hit it on the head, that sometimes power is about confidence. My Bob is a weak dog. I know that, but Bob doesn't. No one ever told him. He thinks he can move mountains, if I let him work the way he wants-on his feet slicing flanks. This method works for him and he's won open trials that way. He's learned how to make it work for him. Since he was a pup, when he went into pens with sheep, I always made sure it was a sucess. Now you can send him in anywhere, and he has no regard for his own body. He will slam in tight spaces and move any sheep you want. My other dog is way stronger, but is afraid of those tight spaces so I never send him in. My weak dog will also move cattle if I let him do it his way.

Jenny Glen

[Valhalla]

So, Jen... how do you know Bob is weak? Doesn't sound like it to me...

[Jennifer Glen]

Sometimes Christine, sheep challenge the dog with power because it has too much power. As I'm sure you know with your own dog. It annoys the sheep and they only put up with that pushyness for so long. I didn't believe that when I was a novice. I figured that the sheep only challenged weak dogs until I met a certain national champion who loves to annoy the sheep in this matter. He thinks it's great fun to start a fight. His handler spends all his time getting this dog to do extremely square flanks in the hopes that there will be no pressure on the sheep. Some of the weaker dogs will get around because other than a polite flank, they just follow the sheep around, not bothering them and a powerful dog will bug them. I think the difference there, most of the time is when the dog gets challenged, what do they do, do they stand and fight or leave? I don't think that power is overrated. I'd rather have it when I need it than miss it. I'd take the overly square flanks to slicing flanks any day.

Jenny Glen

[Jennifer Glen]

I know Bob is weak because even tho, he has never been stood off (he likes a fight too), you do have to beg him up. I describe the difference between Jed and Bob by describing Jed as a dog that if you want him to go forward, you only have to let up on the brake. Bob, you gotta use the gas pedle hard, and to the floor to keep him in the game.

Jenny Glen

[Smokjbc]

Part of power is also work ethic- does the dog want to get it done no matter what? I have two dogs I trial- one has alot of presence on stock and controls them pretty well. The other is very loose working and I wouldn't really call her powerful but what she has that the other dog lacks is this incredible work ethic. I can send her anywhere, and the stock will get brought to me whether its cows, range ewes, ewes w/lambs. Doesn't matter- they will come (its not real pretty though LOL).

 

The other dog is far more stylish and on cooperative stock she looks powerful. Sheep challenge her a lot less than the other dog- she works calmer and at a better distance. On a good day, she'll get me better scores than the other dog. Thats "if" she gets around the course. She will try to move difficult stock but with her I have to keep her from getting to a point where she gives up. When the going gets really tough, she will give up and all the straight fetch lines in the world can't make up for that. The dog with less presence but more work ethic gets the course done, the dog with more presence doesn't have the "can do" attitude when the going gets rough.

[Deb Mickey]

Great discussion, guys! Keep it coming!

 

Here's another question ( another one?? sheezzz ).

 

What do you see in young dogs that tell you the dog will grow up to be strong/weak or have presence/no presence?

[Deacon Dog]

No experience with range sheep. In fact, I've only been intimately familiar with the way two dogs work. One is a male with power and confidence but no clue how to use them. The other is a female who at one time I would have described as weak, but now I'm beginning to wonder.

 

The difference in what I call "power" showed itself a few weeks ago when I was helping a friend put out round bales in a pasture with cows, goats and sheep. When the bales hit the ground the stock was all over us, and we couldn't get them unwrapped, so we decided to use a dog to keep them back. The female did the job but the stock kept creeping in, and she really had to work at it. After a few brief encounters, the stock wouldn't come withing 20 yards of the he male.

 

For most jobs, however, I'd rather use the female. She works calmly and doesn't rattle the stock. She's doesn't have a lot of confidence, but she's been challenged, butted against panels, etc. to the point where I surely thought she'd quit, but she never has.

 

The male has never learned to guage the amount of pressure he puts on stock and often blows through where he should be which often makes a mess. My lack of experience training and handling this dog in all likelihood led to the way he is, and things might be different if I could start over with him.

 

Kind of long and disjointed, but the point is power is no good if the dog doesn't know how to use it.

[Wendy V]

Another twist to this discussion: Do you think that sheep turn and face a dog due to the coat color of the dog (overy white, red, or blue)? If so, does this create a tendancy to weakness in a off-color dog (other than black), to have sheep repeatedly turn and face them? Or is it just something in the dog itself that sucks the sheep heads to them?

 

I've wondered about this for a long time, since I observe that sheep react differently to my red dog and my overly white dog than to my black dog. And "he who shall remain nameless" once said that given all else being equal, he would chose a black-faced dog over all others. So, my questions is: In terms of power, does color matter?

 

Wendy V

[Deb Mickey]

In terms of power, does color matter?

I don't have much experience on this one but I do know of an almost totally white dog that looks like it has enough power or presence to me. It's also a very confident dog - could it be a combination of traits that makes this dog effective? With that said, I think the black color or dark color does impact differently than lighter colors. I think that why many guard dogs (not sheep guard dogs) are normally dark in color - for the intimidation factor the color brings to the dog's appearance.

 

I never thought color mattered from a handlers standpoint until the first time I saw my traditionally marked black & white bc working 400+ yards away. The only way I could tell which way she was moving was by seeing either the white tip of her tail or her white ruff. I think she would have blended into the landscape if she had been another color. Of course, her handler's aging eyes could have some impact on that!

[Pipedream Farm]

Originally posted by Wendy V:

Another twist to this discussion: Do you think that sheep turn and face a dog due to the coat color of the dog (overy white, red, or blue)? If so, does this create a tendancy to weakness in a off-color dog (other than black), to have sheep repeatedly turn and face them? Or is it just something in the dog itself that sucks the sheep heads to them?

 

I've wondered about this for a long time, since I observe that sheep react differently to my red dog and my overly white dog than to my black dog. And "he who shall remain nameless" once said that given all else being equal, he would chose a black-faced dog over all others. So, my questions is: In terms of power, does color matter?

 

Wendy V

The impression I've been given from people who should know, is that sheep won't always "believe" lighter colored dogs and therefore will test these dogs more often than the darker dogs. This continual testing wears on the dog's confidence.

 

In other words it's not that color and power/presence go hand-in-hand it's that color and how the sheep respond go hand-in-hand.

 

This situation shows a good example of my definition of power vs. presence; light colored (white) dogs have less presence than black dogs. Sheep must be convinced by the light colored dogs more than they do by black dogs. But a light colored dog with power will move sheep that are testing.

 

Mark

[Howdyjabo]

I have two dogs-- both are powerful and can move just about anything.

 

But..... one has presence and the other doesn't

 

It shows when the have to make a large spread out group of cattle get up and moving.

 

The one goes out and when she turns in- they all look at her- some get up and mosey off- the others she gets up one at a time except any close to the one shes working on will mosey on their own-- not long and everything is up and moving.

 

The other goes out and when he turns in some of the calves will look at him-- very few will get up and mosey off- he can get each and everyone up but those nearby wait for him to pay attention to them too-- they mosey for a little while while hes working at getting others up then they stop making him come move them again. While hes moving them the others he got up have stopped................

 

The one dog that is powerful and has presence was a pain to start-- she over used both quatilties and made more problems than she solved.

She has relaxed now and only uses it when she needs it--- We can walk right next to calves and they won't even look at her-- till she turns "it" on- then everything is instantly aware.

 

Wonder if cattle respect white dogs more than sheep do?

I have always noticed that red and white dogs seem to be at a disadvantage with the sheep--- but what little I have seen with the cattle it seems like they might have an advantage.......