Dog Whisperer

[smileyzookie]

Ok, I've searched threads already but I want to open this discussion again. I recently got the channel the dog whisperer Ceasar Milian is on. I have to say that in just the 6 or so shows I've watched, I like him. I know he's in a lawsuit right now, but he wasnt the one who injured the dog his staff was. I want to discuss him. He seems like a very intelligent person to me. I've not seen him be mean to any animal including ones who have bitten him or are agressive, of course TV could edit but I doubt he is mean. The dog doesnt act scared from the ones I've seen. And, the dogs seem to respect him and they DO act differently with him than with their owners. Im not by ANY means a dog expert. I just want to know why people have such issues with him.

 

I think he's very good at explaining to people and helping them understand their dog issues. I believe all Rivens issues Im having are my fault. Somewhere in our training, or pack or whatever I've failed and Im trying to understand now how to fix it. Dogs in packs dont have issues like seperation anxiety, or obessions.

 

Edited to add : I dont by any means think in his 1 hour all these dog issues are "cured" but I do think he can give the owners a start and point them in the right direction.

[Joe Anne]

I agree with you. "Overall, I like him too", and I am a professional obedience instructor. I have watched him on tv, and bought one of his DVD's, (Dog Training for People) which I recommend.

You are right, not 1 hour or maybe even 1 year of training is gonna cure all unwanted "issues" people have with their dogs, but like you said he points people in the right direction, and this is TV afterall. He must be doing something right or he wouldn't be as well known and popular as he is. All those dogs he has running and eating together, hmmmm.... I have to say it puts me on the edge of my seat watching that!!!!

I have had dogs all my life (and I'm no spring chicken! LOL), and I have trained dogs for almost 20 yrs. ( basic thru advanced obedience )& I have participated in obedience trials and gained obedience certifications etc., etc., but my current BC boy has been my biggest challenge. I have done, tried, worked, every way and method I know to get through his aggressiveness issues. I have never been a proponent of physically reprimanding my dogs, never! HOWEVER, and a very big however.... since Phoenix and I started our herding career, I have witnessed, the herding trainers handling him a whole lot different than I do. They do not put up with his "snarkiness", period. He has been physically reprimanded by 3 different trainers, and I didn't particularly like it, but he has made an incredible turn around since we got started back in April. When I say physical I mean a swat on the rear end with a stock stick or his leash, (not hurting him at all, just a big startle!!) or maybe a quick jerk on his leash, and/or a very firm down command. Ever since I have approached him with this method, all I have had to do is tell him to leave it in a rather normal voice, and if that dosen't work a VERY STERN voice AND a lie down command and it is working very well indeed!!!

Just like Ceasar Milan's method, it is a matter of establishing "pack order". With Ceasar that is exactly what he is doing right from the time he takes the dog's leash.

If you watch the people, they are pretty much "asking" their dog to "please" don't do this or please do that, or they are feeling very anxious/nervous or afraid of what their dog might do... not Ceasar, and not herding trainer methods for sure. You learn to excpect your dog to do what you said. You learn to pretty much ignore the "good" behavior and correct the "not good", behavior. Your dog in turn learns to make choices on his/her own.

Your body language, your voice etc all matter when training dogs. Even with all the years training I have behind me I am still learning and am always open to new methods.

I have obviously learned that the positive feedback/reward based method works very well for most dogs, and has worked very well training Phoenix in his everyday obedience skills, but his dog and people aggression WAS (past tense!) getting away from me, and now thanks to the experience and skills of other trainers, (especially our Herding Instructors), we are on the road to a dog that actually is obedient AND well behaved.

No one method is right for every dog or person...

[flrpwr52]

I like Ceasar's approach when telling the pet owner they need to do exercise "then" do training/discipline.

 

I firmly believe that a lot of the issues people have with their dogs could be curbed if the dog was exercised more. A tired dog is not going to be as naughty.

 

I have stopped using the word "no" and instead I now use a growl. My girls have picked up on this and it is working very well for us.

[iluvlucy]

I had 3 kids JOe Anne and no one method worked for them either

[Kat's Dogs]

I am another one who likes his ways.

They are the same things that we do at my training center, so the first time I saw the show it wasn't really anything new but great to see the things working.

 

BTW, they do edit the shows. Some of the dogs go to his place for a month, some he comes back to the house for several days, some take all day long (they start in the morning by the end of the show it is dark out). In real life he wouldn't be there only an hour.

[smileyzookie]

Originally posted by Joe Anne:

Your body language, your voice etc all matter when training dogs.

In a previous thread I had read, someone stated that they didnt believe body language mattered because dogs cant read body language. I wont name who said that, but I was flabergasted. I didnt realize this was a debateable issue. I thought it was just fact.

 

I tried something with Riven last night that I saw on his show. It was showing possession of the ball and letting the dog know it was your ball. Basically just make a noise (eh eh - lol hard to type what noise I make lol) and let them see they cant have your ball cause you are pack leader. It worked great with her. I put the ball in front of her, right next to her and she just looked at me like... "can I?" She didnt try to challenge me. I really like that about Riven. She doesnt ever challenge me. All my issues with her arent about her trying to dominate. Im so lucky I found a dog like that. Although, I do feel so bad when I tell her down or whatever she looks like I've taken away her birthday or something. I dont know if I've really hurt her or if she's playing me?

[JackoDog]

Although, I do feel so bad when I tell her down or whatever she looks like I've taken away her birthday or something. I dont know if I've really hurt her or if she's playing me?

I read somewhere - maybe here - that BCs are very sensitive. I've noticed that same look from Jacko and I take it more as "crap I didn't want to disappoint you!" rather than him really being mad that he was made to stop or playing with me. I could be wrong, but that's the way I like to think about it!

[sandra s.]

Kessie is exactly the same. A quiet "ah" is normally enough to stop her doing whatever she's doing. If I really yell at her - which I still do sometimes when she does something that scares me - she'll come running back to me looking absolutely desperate. "OMG I'm so sorry! I didn't know it was wrong!".

She never openly challenges me either. With a face like that, you don't need to lead the pack to get everything you want

 

As for the dog whisperer, I can't comment on his methods because I've never seen him work. But if he tells people that dogs are

 

a) living souls that need a LIFE; a real one and not the prissy Barbie version, and

not aliens from Mars but intelligent beings that we can actually communicate with,

 

then I think this world needs more of his kind. Maybe he should start a second program that tells people that their kids don't die if they get wet or dirty or bruise their knees

 

I'd really have to watch him to know what I think about his methods. It depends so much on the dog and the situation. For example, I'm very careful with Kessie, especially when correcting her, but if Timmy plops his massive self down on the center of my bed and "asks" me "What you gonna do about it?" then off he goes, by the scruff of his neck.

 

In a previous thread I had read, someone stated that they didnt believe body language mattered because dogs cant read body language. I wont name who said that, but I was flabergasted.

So am I! How, then, does a very quiet person like me who hardly ever says anything talk to her dog all day long? It's us who can't read THEIR body language half the time as far as I know.

[MaggieDog]

Milan has some good points and I congratuate you all who are pulling the parts of his work that are quite beneficial to our relationship w/ dogs, however I cannot condone his methods in general.

 

IMO they seem to be much harsher than necessary and rather based on the outdated wolf model of training. Our dogs are not trying to take over every second of their day and do NOT need to be jerked around or pinned just for obedience training, and especially not when reacting aggressively to a stimuli, whatever it is.

 

I will admit I have seen only a few shows because his method disgusted me - the thing that sticks in my mind was him leash correcting a dog on a head halter rather severely - and when I watched the dogs' body language it was far from relaxed and comfortable. I saw a TON of lip licking, averted eyes, pinned ears, and slinking posture. I've skimmed his book and hope to read it when my library has a free copy; I did notice he has a good section on being a leader and exercise, but he also uses alpha rolls and flooding.

 

Yes we are all smart enough to "take what we like and ignore the rest" and realize that severe behavioral problems cannot be fixed in an hour, but unfortunately I know there are many people trying to apply his methods based on what they've seen on TV and that's a recipe for disaster.

 

He's a great businessman as well - he just started selling a contraption called the "Illusion Collar" that is basically just designed to keep a choke chain right behind the dog's ears for the most control. The thing is $40! I can buy a $5 slip collar w/ a snap and accomplish the exact same thing.

[Kat's Dogs]

IMO they seem to be much harsher than necessary

every few shows seem to see one correction that looked a little over the top. But he is really only dealing with "red zone" dogs that are very dominant, or have owners who are totally unable to handle them. So if he were correcting Dazzle for example, I don't think that it would be harsh like that - because she is not dominant, or "red zone". Also, for TV they will edit and only use the really amazing (like when a dog starts biting for example) parts just to make a better show.

 

However, the fact that people might see the show and then do those things does scare me a bit - but as an actual trainer I think he is fine - the fact that he has a TV show is a different matter.

[Ruger's Dad]

I love the show. I believe that most people don't have much of a clue as to how to really handle their dogs. His biggest training tool is the walk and I agree. Walking your dog will teach dominance; stop car, kid, bike chasing; teach your dog to stop, sit, heal; as well as basic social skills when meeting people. Ceasar is also quick to point out that certain dogs need excercise before walking which is certainly true with Border Collies.

 

Since our Springer Spaniel and Ruger are both corrected by a stern look, we do not have anything like those red zone dogs. I would believe that red zone dogs are due to owners not having a clue on dog handling. In this day and age another name for a red zone dog is lawsuit. Those types of dog I would in no way want to even deal with them but Caesar is most definetly an expert with them.

 

I think one thing Border Collie owners can agree with, our dogs make us look smart. What a great breed to own.

[Kitch]

I've probably seen about a dozen of his shows and one of his training videos. I think he uses outdated methods and amazing marketing skill to make him seem great. With the exception of one dog, he made a point of saying that every problem leads back to the dog thinking they were the dominant one - even a poor dog that had separation anxiety. (Mick has SA and trust me, he is as far from dominant as you can get).

 

The only "non-dominant" dog I saw him deal with, (as defined by CM) was an aussie that had been scared by some kids on an agility course. I thought he did a good job with that one.

 

That being said, I wouldn't let him within 50 feet of my dog.

[FlyByNight]

My absolute biggest fear is that someone will one day try to muscle a truly dominant dog into submission and end up getting mauled. There are not that many truly dominant dogs out there, and if you tried some of the things Milan does with them, you would lose your face. You cannot physically confront a dominant dog, because they will fight right back, and you will lose that fight.

 

The "dominant" dogs that he deals with, by and large, quickly submit to him. They are not truly dominant dogs, they are dogs who are taking advantage of slack owners. Or, they are downright terrified fear-biters, like that White German Shepherd.

 

Oh, and if I remember correctly, even that Aussie was "dominant." When the woman started to get upset as Milan was talking to her, the dog put his paws on her lap and stood up to lick her face. According to Milan, the dog was dominating her, and she was letting him.

[Aronomy]

I love Milan, particularly his use of his hand as a mouth, to simulate a bite. He explained that the thumb should be used as the canine tooth, to really get the message through, I think it's brilliant. Also, a funny moment in one episode, he was doing an impression of the dog, calling Milan on the phone saying "Help, my people are treating me like a human." Everything he says makes sense, and he gets good results. Much better than "Good Dog U" which I watched a lot when I was younger on Animal Planet.

[smileyzookie]

Wow thanks for everyones opinions!! I appreciate it so much. One thing I've noticed in most of the shows is that the people are treating their dog like their kid, or like a human. That is something I have to be really careful with since my husband and I have no kids. (Thats why my signature tag relates to us so well) We treated our cat like a human and now he's spoiled rotten and a terror. I need to find a cat whisperer lol. Thank God Riven is more than happy to be submissive or I think I'd have had a real problem on my hands.

 

FlyByNight-I'll agree that most of the dogs he deals with are taking advantage of slack owners. But still those dogs are agressive to people, and just in his way of training the owners as to what the dog is thinking, IMO helps tremendously.

 

Aronomy - Oh my gosh, I've been trying to get into Good Dog U. After watching Milan, I just cant lol. Its boring, and I just cant pay attention.

[D'Elle]

I have only seen him in action once, but I agree entirely with Kitch!!!:

 

*******I wouldn't let him within 50 feet of my dog.************

 

Sure, you can *always* get a dog to submit to you by force. That is not the mark of a good trainer. A truly good trainer can communicate with the dog 99.9% of the time without force. And to say that almost all or all problems stem from dominance issues is just plain ignorant. (IMO)

[Allie+Tess&Kipp]

He must be doing something right or he wouldn't be as well known and popular as he is.

Jon Katz is not someone I'd say is doing things right and he is popular and well-known, unfortunately.

 

Allie + Tess & Kipp

http://weebordercollie.com

[BigD]

CM uses harsh techniques. In the proper hands, they can be used correctly. But he is showing Joe Public how to roll a snarling GSD. You and I know not to do this, but Joe Public thinks "Hey, that worked!" and then they got out to their Pitt Bull and get their face ripped off.

 

I have NEVER, EVER seen a dog happy or relaxed around CM after he's "re-hab'd" the dog. It might look ok to Joe Public, but if you have any experience with dogs and how they communicate (yawns, licking, sniffing, crouched, ears back, tail tucked, etc) you can easily see that they are not happy around him.

 

Is that how you want Joe Public to raise their dogs?

 

I've had to un-do damage that 2 people have done to their dogs by watching CM on TV. It's pathetic. I guess it keeps the real trainers in business.

[SoloRiver]

I would not let this guy train any of my dogs, but I especially would not allow him to get within 50 feet of Solo.

 

If I had used methods like these on Solo, I have no doubt he would be dead by now.

 

This has been discussed ad infinitum on the Boards. I don't have time to elaborate now but I've posted my opinion on a number of occasions. Short response is I'm sorry, but quashing all behavior is not the same thing as training a dog.

[MaggieDog]

Hear Hear Melanie - I wholeheartedly agree.

 

If it wouldn't scar Maggie for the rest of her life I'd almost be tempted to go to a seminar and see what Mr. Milan suggests for her current dog-dog guarding and confinement anxiety and past undersocialization. I doubt it would be anywhere near what has helped her thus far.