sport/conformation vs. herding ability

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

If by this statement you mean only that not all carriers should be excluded from breeding, I certainly agree. But if you mean that carrier status should not weigh on the negative side in deciding whether to breed a particular dog, I disagree.

 

If a dog of exceptional working ability is a carrier, that fact should certainly not keep him/her from being bred; it should simply be taken into account in deciding who to breed the dog TO. But if a dog is of marginal working ability, I believe carrier status generally ought to tip the scales against breeding. And if one's purpose in breeding is to produce the ideal physical specimen of a border collie (which the conformation breeders are purporting to do) I can't imagine how breeding a carrier could be justified.

[Pipedream Farm]

Originally posted by Eileen Stein:

If by this statement you mean only that not all carriers should be excluded from breeding, I certainly agree. But if you mean that carrier status should not weigh on the negative side in deciding whether to breed a particular dog, I disagree.

Eileen,

 

I agree with you in principle; however, I try to approach the breeding question from the "why should this dog be bred" as opposed to the "why not breed this dog" (in terms of working ability). Hopefully my actions will live up to this ideal.

 

I am with you on the concept that not all working dogs should (or need to be) be bred.

 

Mark

[Bill Fosher]

Spottydog,

 

If you're not planning on breeding your pup, and one or the other parent is DNA normal, you don't need to do any CEA testing at all. The worst case scenario is that your puppy will be an unaffected carrier.

 

The idea of removing a quarter of the dogs from the gene pool to get rid of a disease that affects about two percent, and which is not life-threatening in most cases and not even particularly debilitating in some is anathema. I'm on the radical fringe that argues that in rare cases we should consider breeding affected dogs to normals if their working ability is good enough, and clear the lines in the subsequent generations by breeding the carrier pups back to normals.

 

As you've pointed out, with 75 percent of the dogs normal (roughly speaking) there are enough out there that we can rid the breed of the disease without drastically narrowing the gene pool. The problem with genetics is that you never know what traits are linked until it's too late. CEA predates breed differentiation, and it is only in the current and former herding breeds. That's a strong enough suggestion that it may be linked to something that's necessary for herding ability for me to be very leary of efforts to remove it from the gene pool entirely.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

While I don't want to revive an argument that most of us have grown weary of, I don't think there's any scientific validity to the idea that because CEA is present only in current and former herding breeds, it's likely linked to something necessary for herding ability. If the mutation occurred in proto herding stock back before breed differentiation, it would tend to persist in those descendant breeds, increasing or decreasing depending on the number and percentage of carrier dogs who went into each gene pool, unless breeders had the inclination and the ability to breed it out. The fact that it has persisted in breeds which have lost their herding ability long ago -- rough and smooth collies, for example, where 85% of the breed is affected, and shetland sheepdogs -- illustrates this. The fact that it's absent in the majority of good-working border collies, OTOH, makes it very, very unlikely that it is linked to working ability.

 

(BTW, I'm not sure CEA is present in kelpies at all -- does anyone know? If it's not present, that would indicate that the very few working collies imported from the UK to Australia, from which the breed developed, happened not to carry the CEA mutation. It would further undercut the idea of a link to some trait necessary for working ability.)

 

I would certainly agree that we don't want to discard all carriers of CEA from the gene pool, but that's because they carry valuable genes (totally unlinked to CEA) that we would not want to lose.

[Brildwn]

I see your piont. But i did not buy a dog knowing she was a carrier. She passed her eye exams as a pup at Cornwall, in Philidelphia. Her sire had passed it 7 years running and her mom had passed it as well. both parents passed hip, elbo and thyroid as well. Now about a month after i got her they DNA checked Dallas and it was found that he had CEA after all but that it was so little that not one doctor in 7 years had detected anything! She is from out standing blood lines (my opinion and many others) She is a nice mix and yes she has instinct and some kick. She is not one of those hold still dogs. Im hoping to do some herding with her but my distance from my trainner is making it very difficult eccpecially in this weather.

 

Now the rest of the dogs have their hipps x-rayed and checked. Two vets look at the x-rays they are very experienced and can tell a displaystic dog when they see one! I just haven't sent them out to OFA to get them CERT. so that is why they are not listed on OFA. There is a eye vet that comes out.

 

Now when the time comes to breed Felicity, all the pups in the litter that may be bred shown trialed etc. will be geneticaly tested, no if buts or maybes. There will all be done! I dont want one of her possibly carrier pups to be bred to another carrie because we didnt know it was a carrier and possibly produce affected pups! My other dogs have all been eye checked by Dr. Larocca DVM but as of now have not been DNA checked.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

CEA does exist in several "oddball" breeds around the world which have no apparent link to European herding breeds. I started some research a couple of years ago on the emergence of proto herding dogs in Europe and the identification of genetic quirks that were apparently unique to those breeds, was of course part of my preliminary research.

 

Now, everybody get your rotten tomatoes ready to throw, because after saying that, I have to say that the whole project literally came to a crashing halt as all my research was in the truck that was totalled in the accident.

 

But I definitely remember there were a couple of fluffy terrier-type dogs in Eastern Europe, an Italian something or other (maybe a curly-coated retriever?), a West African native-type dog, and about half a dozen various Asian breeds that presented with CEA. I seem to remember I got the information from an ACD study or research project.

 

Sorry, I'm not much help - ducking the rotten tomatoes now . . .

[Brildwn]

Dr. Larocca only comed out about once a year. It is hard to time litters to be the right age when he comes!

[kelpiegirl]

Hi Eileen:

CEA is reported in Kelpies, though I have never heard of a kelpie having this. They have also been individuals with PRA- which I did hear about one individual.

Julie

[SoloRiver]

passed her eye exams as a pup at Cornwall, in Philidelphia.

 

Huh?

 

I lived in Philadelphia for over ten years and can't parse this.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Well sure, Melanie! You didn't know Cornwall was in Philly? They moved it when they felt overshadowed by the Welsh in the UK.

[Brildwn]

lol sorry i explained wrong.....any how she has passed her eye exam. I think its called cornell I didn't get details on where i know it started with a C and was in Philidelphia near Pensdale. Thats where the breeder lives (Darby Lewes of Folly Hill's Kennel) An excellent breeder in my books who deeply cares for her dogs!

 

The fact remains that she passed!

[paddyCA]

Brildwn, did you miss the following post? There are lots of questions for you to answer!

 

What pups? According to your website, Felicity is 14 months old and has never been bred. What about the eyes of the bitches you HAVE bred?

 

Also, I can't believe I'm wasting my time asking these questions, but

 

1) How many litters have you bred?

 

2) Have you shown any dog anywhere in conformation? If so, where? Have you gotten any titles or points on any dog? If so, who and where?

 

3) Have you shown/trialed any dog in any venue in herding? If so, who and where?

 

4) If you have not shown any of your dogs in conformation, or trialed them, how exactly are you going about breeding for conformation and herding?

 

...Why should anyone email you? You came here and joined in this discussion. Why shouldn't you answer the questions you were asked here? [/QB]

Also, use a spellchecker before you post, thanks!

[Sue R]

Brildwn - If you are talking about Cornell University Vet School, that's in Ithaca NY. If you are talking about a vet clinic by the name of Cornell located somewhere else...

 

I did go and check out Darby Lewes' Border Collie website. No significant mention of stockwork or trialling but surely someone who loves her dogs. As "an excellent breeder" (as you call her), I am curious what her breeding goals are, and why she chose to breed the litter that resulted in your Felicity.

 

Please use a spellchecker and proof your posts. It's often quite hard for me to read and understand them.

[Brildwn]

Darby is an excellent breeder. She breed for more doggy sports and conformation. Just started in conformation and has been choosing CH. studs! Felicitys sister just got a 4 point major YAY!

 

 

1) How many litters have you bred?

 

7 in 6 years three were this year and two were co bred

 

2) Have you shown any dog anywhere in conformation? If so, where? Have you gotten any titles or points on any dog? If so, who and where?

 

I just purchased a show prospective girl (felicity) and i also have laurel which is related to felicity way back. they will both be shown in Duluth, MN at the Duluth Kennel Club in July coming up!

 

3) Have you shown/trialed any dog in any venue in herding? If so, who and where?

 

nope, just starting

 

4) If you have not shown any of your dogs in conformation, or trialed them, how exactly are you going about breeding for conformation and herding?

 

The breeder whome i got comet and Tessie from had working border collies. He never trialed them they were plainely working dogs. They handled a whole herd of cattle (2500) cows every day all day! Does this not prove that they are capable working dogs. These dogs have done this for generation after generation they dont need to be trialed to prove they are worthy sheep dogs they earn their keep. Many of my pups have went to working homes.

[juliepoudrier]

Originally posted by Brildwn:

They handled a whole herd of cattle (2500) cows every day all day! Does this not prove that they are capable working dogs. These dogs have done this for generation after generation they dont need to be trialed to prove they are worthy sheep dogs they earn their keep. Many of my pups have went to working homes.

Um, it proves that the parents were working dogs but says *nothing* about the offspring (Comet and Tessie). Since you are breeding for traits other than herding (conformation and sports), you are also using dogs who were not bred for herding and so you can't make any substantial claims about the herding ability of your dogs unless you have actually worked them on stock to some sort of standard, be it trial or farm work. Also, you should be aware that dogs and the livestock at a home farm learn the routine of that farm and so can show really well at home, but may not look nearly as good in a strange situation or on different/new stock. That's the whole reason trials exist--to show that dogs are capable of working a variety of stock in a variety of locations. That's not to say that a farm dog can't be an excellent working dog, just that it's harder to judge given the constraints of the home farm situation--and I think it would be nearly impossible for someone with *no* experience with livestock or working dogs on livestock to make that judgment.

 

It's a common tactic of conformation or backyard breeders (or anyone breeding for anything other than working ability) to point to dogs in a particular dog's pedigree and then use that as "proof" that their dog could work livestock to a high standard, "if only I had the time, money, desire, ___________ (fill in the blank). If you (or anyone else breeding) want to claim that you have good working dogs, you can't do so by pointing to your dog's ancestors. You have to prove it somehow.

 

J.

[Sue R]

I hate to be blunt, Brildwn, but there is a great deal you write that just doesn't seem to make sense and doesn't sound well-based in reality.

 

I think you are missing the whole point that the breeding of Border Collies should not be based on conformation, sport, color, personal whim, etc., but on proven working ability between individuals of compatible bloodlines.

 

Breeding for *anything* but working ability that has been *proven* (not *guessed at* by looking at previous generations in a pedigree), is a detriment to the Border Collie as a breed. And, for the majority of members of this board, AKC or other show-line-bred or performance-sport-bred dogs are not representatives of the *real* Border Collie. They may be extremely well-loved and cared-for pets and companions, but they aren't breeding stock.

 

The *real* Border Collie is a breed of dog that has been bred for many years for the sole purpose of working stock. Its intelligence, biddability, soundness, stamina, athleticism, thriftiness, temperament, etc., are all integral parts of its suitability to work stock under varied and demanding conditions.

 

Breeding dogs for conformation, coat, ear set, color, sport, etc., never would and never could have produced the true, working Border Collie. When you breed for anything other that those characteristics that have made it the world's preeminent stock dog, what you will produce is a pale imitation of the real thing.

 

How about taking the time to really learn about Border Collies (not Barbie or Sport Collies), what makes the working Border Collie great and unique, what really happens to all those puppies that are produced by backyard breeders like yourself (and their potential offspring as well), before you continue to "crank out" puppies of dubious benefit to the breed (as pretty, lovable, and appealling to you as they may be)?

 

Have you checked out Petfinder lately? Read the statistics and see how many Border Collies and Border Collie crosses are listed there, homeless, in shelters, and in unsuitable homes. Responsible breeders produce very few puppies and only those from the very best of proven, working and trialling dogs.

 

I know, I've read your posts before, and you've said that nothing anyone could say would affect anything you chose to do concerning your dogs. I just had to give it a try, because I am interested in the welfare and future of the working Border Collie breed.

[paddyCA]

I just can't understand why people try to breed a dog for something it was not meant to do. What's the purpose and the rationale behind it? It's like trying to cut a steak with a fork, and trying to convince everyone else to do it too- get a knife! If you want a pretty show dog, get a Yorkie!

 

These breeders are not bettering the breed by adding optimal dogs, capable of excelling in herding , to the gene pool so obviously they aren't breeding for the breed's sake. They are breeding for their own whims or to try to have the prettiest dog, and with all of the homeless dogs doomed to be euthanized, frankly this is criminal.

 

That's really nice that you love your dogs and you give them good homes and they like sheep, but loving your dogs and thinking they are beautiful does not validate breeding them. I really do hope you can take your devotion to the breed and direct it towards something more conducive. People who -truly- care for the breed know what makes these dogs so special and aim to continue only that.

 

Ok, off my soapbox!

[Brildwn]

A) i didn't say that my dogs could work because they have national champions in their ped.

 

QUOTE: what really happens to all those puppies that are produced by backyard breeders like yourself

 

please specify, I know exactly where all my puppis are, The owner all have to attend an obedience class, they all keep in contact with me, they are all on no-breeding contracts and if they don't want the dog anymore it must come straight back to me. So please what happens to my puppies? They get loved cared for and are brought into this world be someone (me) who will ensure that they are never put into any danger or are anything but loved and adored! I know that there are people that have no clue and pump out puppies non stop and dont take them back when they are un wanted and send them off without a no-breeding contract and dont care what happens to the puppy after they get the money in their hands, or wheather the new owners are pumping puppies out of the underaged pups. But this is not me! Because i dont breed for the reason that you think is the only reason to breed i am a back yard breeder? Sorry yes i have just started breeding for conformation! Although i started out with the working lines. But i would like to do some herding with my conformation lins. Is that so bad? Are my dogs abused? Do they go to abusive homes? Do i not make sure they are in good hands and send them off with 5 year to life times guarantees? Do BYB do this do they give a rats @$$ what happens to the pups later? There are Three backyard breders in my area, yes they take care of their dogs but they dont have guarantees they dont take the pup back, the dont have no-breeding contracts, or keep track of the pup after they have gone!

Yes i breed for conformation, There is no law aying that it isn't possible for me to breed nicely built dogs that can work to, is there? There is no rason why it cant be dont! Iv seen many nice built working dogs! The ugly gene and the working gene is not related! There is not reason why the working dogs can't look like the show dogs and still be able to work!

[SoloRiver]

So, you are a well-meaning backyard breeder. But you're still a backyard breeder. A young, naive, selfish, and bullheaded backyard breeder.

 

You're certainly not breeding working dogs. I can't imagine the show folks will be all that proud to have you either. Seven litters in six years? I'm sorry, but given what you've written about your dogs and your lame justifications of the breedings you've done, that's seven litters of ill-bred dogs that add nothing to either the Border Collie, Barbie Collie, or Sport Collie breeds.

[prosperia]

Brildwn,

Your statement about the "ugly gene" is way off base. See, thats the problem with conformation. Who gets to decide whats "pretty" and what isn't?

 

Here is an example of what the AKC considers pretty. This pic came from their website.

 

This is Julie's girl Kat, who I personally think is absolutely beautiful. Funny, she barely resembles the dog in the previous picture.

 

This a group of dogs that belong to the people who frequent these boards. Notice how different they all look.

[Sue R]

Brildwn - There are no laws preventing you from doing what you are doing with your dogs. Your logic about what you are doing just doesn't make sense.

 

You started with dogs "from working lines" yet I see no indication that you have proven any of your dogs with stock work and trialling before breeding them. Neither have your posts indicated that any of their offspring have been used in such a way as to truly prove their working ability or the worth of their parents as producers of working dogs.

 

Now you are introducing conformation lines and plan on showing in conformation. And then you plan on doing "some herding". That sounds a bit convoluted to me - herding to conformation to herding. Do you really have a goal or do you just want "to do it all"? Folks with that goal often wind up as "jack of all trades, master of none".

 

You have indicated that you want to campaign some dogs with professional handlers in the conformation venue in spite of the considerable expense, but you don't appear to have put any expense into training your dogs "from herding lines" and proving their value as herding dogs.

 

Yes i breed for conformation, There is no law aying that it isn't possible for me to breed nicely built dogs that can work to, is there? There is no rason why it cant be dont! Iv seen many nice built working dogs! The ugly gene and the working gene is not related! There is not reason why the working dogs can't look like the show dogs and still be able to work!

There are many working-bred dogs that I would consider beautiful and some that are not "pretty" but they must still be soundly built to handle the rigors of a lifetime of stock work. That is the example of "form follows function".

 

The conformation world loves to use the phrase, "form follows function" but it's only lip service. The emphasis is generally on style, not substance, and little regard is given to breeding a dog that can truly do the work its breed was developed to do (be it stock work, field sports, or any other kind of work).

 

Remember that "the pretty gene" and the working gene are not any more related than "the ugly gene" and the working gene are. What is considered "pretty" in the conformation-bred Border Collie world is vastly different from what is considered "pretty" in the working Border Collie world. For the conformation world, it's an upright, heavy-coated, prick-eared (often shaped with glue and string), dull-eyed (you might call it "soft-eyed), blunt-faced dog that hardly resembles its hard-working ancestors that could toil all day in the rugged hills of Scotland, and be ready to do it again tomorrow. In the working Border Collie world, pretty is as pretty does.

 

You sure don't see many conformation-built/bred dogs that can can compete with and do the work that a working-bred dog can accomplish. Very few are competitive in the upper levels of the USBCHA/ISDS type trials that are the real test of the Border Collie's working abilities.

 

That is because breeding for something other than the work will quickly dilute the complex and necessary characteristics that are required for quality stock work. Those are the characteristics that make the Border Collie what it is.

 

Your own words demonstrate that you do not understand what it takes to produce good, working Border Collies.

[laurie etc]

just for fun - took the AKC picture, changed the ears and color - LOOK WHAT I GOT!!

[juliepoudrier]

Originally posted by Brildwn:

There is not reason why the working dogs can't look like the show dogs and still be able to work!

Well perhaps you'll be the FIRST to have a dog *built* like a conformation champion that can also compete without embarassment at the USBCHA National Finals. When you have accomplished that lofty goal, maybe folks will come rushing to you for pups. Till then, you're just like all the others out there who make claims about their dogs that have no basis in fact.

 

J.

P.S. Maria, Kat may have been hit with an ugly stick according to conformation breeders, but she sure is beautiful when she's doing what she's meant to do--and that ain't trotting around a show ring with her head jacked up in the air!

 

[edited to add:OMG Laurie, you've created a golden retriever. Hmmm...maybe they should be added to the herding group too!]

[prosperia]

If we are comparing the two (AKC dog and Kat) I'd have to disagree on which one was hit with an ugly stick!

[laurie etc]

Originally posted by juliepoudrier:

[edited to add:OMG Laurie, you've created a golden retriever. Hmmm...maybe they should be added to the herding group too!]

I think AKC could start a new "group" called the Agility/Obedience Group" and yes, THEIR Goldens, Shelties, Barbie Collies, Aussies and a few others would be perfect for it.