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sport/conformation vs. herding ability

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Ok Katelynn,

One more question, do you sell on a non-breeding contract? In other words, until the dog is "proven", either by farm/trial work, he/she is not bred? And if not an asset to the breed, then spayed/neutered? Thanks,

Caroline

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Originally posted by Kate, Dice, and Cue.:

... So I took down the post because it had nothing to do with the reply she was looking for??. It was nothing more, nothing less...

Anyway, yes, my family has had two litters of ABCA working puppies....All of the pups went into working homes with experienced owners/handlers...

Dice was bred because I wanted two pups to train and start trailing with next spring or so, plus I had (and still have) interested buyers. Dice is more then ?my? idea working dog, maybe not yours or the next person, but mine. I like a dog that is quick on its feet, keen, and has a head full of sense...

Plus she is from some of my favorite lines...

Katelynn

Thanks for answering! - Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm impressed that all of your pups are in experienced working homes and that you study pedigrees. I'm not familiar with many of the dogs you listed. What about their working styles do you like? Do you work Dice on stock and/or trial her? What is she like on stock? What attributes/strengths of the sires you chose would compliment/improve her style? Maybe your family has had working stockdogs a long time, and I'm whistling up the wrong tree, but just wondering why there would be such a hurry to breed her and why you would breed Dice back so quickly instead of working/trialing HER. At your age, I would have rather been out working/trialing the dog I had rather than placing my hopes on future puppies (especially if college was in the near future).

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I did not run away from anything, I put the add in pup city long ago and it send to a diffren't e-mail which i don't even check! Someone could have e-mailed me so that i could answer questions about my lines but no no one cared enoght to find out the truth. Firstly lol I have 6 border collies 1 one the way this is not "fake". I dont know where you got that idea from. Also I show in conformation i know you all dont like that but what can i say i am not going to change my ways no matter what any of you say so dont even bother convincing me! But I will also be taking classes and getting 6 sheep and 6 ducks to train with as im so far from my trainner. I have deffrent beliefs about breeding and trainng then you do but thats just how it is i have my beliefs and you have your so leave it at that. Im not going to bother to even erase the add on pup city but I dont have that e-mail so im not worrieing about it. All i know is that i deeply care and love my dogs, they bring much enjoyment for me. They are all guaranteed for five years,on spay/neuter contracts and all owners have to keep in contact with me i am very seriouse when it comes to where my pups end up also the pup muct come back to me if it is no longer wanted. If you have any questions or would like a copy of my contract etc dont be afraid to ask!

Kind Regards,

Lauren

Also if this was fake i dont think anyone in their right mind would write up a four page cotracte for the "occasion" now would they?

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Brildwn

 

I've been to your web page before (a long time ago before this).

 

I should have emailed then but why do you not have any pedigrees or health tests (CERF and OFA) of your dogs up?

 

Where are your dogs from? I've never heard any mention of you or them in any aspect of the dog world (herding, flyball, agility, and not even conformation).

 

I thought they didn't have Border Collies in conformation over in Canada?

 

Thanks!

 

Katelynn

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Yes, I did see your message but hoped you?d have remembered I already answered that in my first post to you about my breeding. :rolleyes: Please go back and look. But for further notice on this thread, yes, my family (me being seventeen and non able to enter a contract on my own) have contracts with buyers.

 

And I just plain do not feel like answering Laurie. If she feels as though I haven't explained myself well enough for her own piece of mind she can email me privately and we can and will go about the discussion of me and my dogs (their working style, ability, extended pedigree/pedigrees) over the phone in a mature manner in private, like adults.

 

No one but you and she seem to have anymore questions and I feel as though it?s a waste of my and others people time for me to post (repeating myself over and over again in your case, Caroline) for the benefit of just one or two questioning/taunting people.

 

This was and is getting childish. I explained why I bred and whose dogs I bred with and should be more then enough of an explanation.

 

I am sure if my dog was unsuitable to be bred for any reason (working ability, temperament, structure, breeding, health testing, ect.), she would have never been accepted to be put to the studs that were used. Are you disagreeing?

 

Thanks!

 

Katelynn

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Hi,

I thank you for asking me these questions and not bombarding me. Firstly yes they have their hips checked. Felicity's eyes are DNA by geneotype Carrier, her sire passed his eye test 7 years in a row and sadly when the DNA came out and Dallas's owner (forgott her name) its dreamworkd border collies, got the test done he is CEA AFFECTED. But my girls mom is normal so hence she is a carrier. Now their is no canine eye doctor around here, so i can not get the eyes checked so im working on getting all the pups genetically tested so i wont need to eye test at all. At the moment most pups go to homes in the usa anyway so the owners get the eyes tested/checked and if their is anything wrong they get a new pup or refund.

Now you are very right you cant shouw in canada! I show states side ushually the Duluth Kennel club in, MN. Alos am thinking about msending the ones that really have achance to make it to the top out with handlers on the circuit as hefty as the price is. noe for pedigrees I have no clue how to put them on my webite i have tried but still cant figure out how to do it! I know how to e-mail them though!

Working lines consist of: (Walter Jaggar) Imp. Celt, (Alan Lynches) Mc Duff,(Jim Martins) Glen III these are the well known ones.

Show lines: CH Korella Royal Command (#2 border collie two years running), AUST NZ JAPAN CH Windgyle Maori Chief, AUST GRAND CH Korella Fire N' Ice, CH Darkwinds Blame it on Rio, NZ/AUST/AFR/ZIM CH Clan Abby Casanova Too, DK Ch Sequayapark Eye O'th Storm, AUST/USA/DK CH Korella Song of Joy, Euro Winner Barcellona 2004

It/Lux/Gbr/Mon/RSM/Slo/Slo Cl/Rip Ch GPE Sequoyahpark Mystical Warrior

(multiple BIS in Italy), NZ GRAND CH AUST CH Clan Abby Phantom-of-Love,

 

see here

web page

there are links at the bottom to some of the relations pages also!

 

and on and on and on........ there are more herding dogs back there too.

 

I hoped to join this group to learn more about the herding aspect og th eborder collie as im interested in that also!

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Originally posted by Brildwn:

noe for pedigrees I have no clue how to put them on my webite i have tried but still cant figure out how to do it!

Scan the papers and save them as a jpg; then post the pedigree just like you post a photo.

 

Follow this link for an example: Peg.

 

Mark

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Excuse me Katelynn, but your comments regarding breeding contracts are not in this thread. Please post a link to the comments as you are right I don't remember. Specifically I am wondering about the non-breeding aspect of your contract.

Thanks,

Caroline

oh by the way, yes I am disagreeing with the following comment.

 

"I am sure if my dog was unsuitable to be bred for any reason (working ability, temperament, structure, breeding, health testing, ect.), she would have never been accepted to be put to the studs that were used. Are you disagreeing?"

 

There are unfortunately lots of working stud dogs that are owned by people and bred without the necessary discrimination. Many people will breed a stud dog with less discrimination than a bitch because there is less risk to the stud than to the bitch with the birth. I am interested in the answers to Laurie's questions also. This is the first response you have given that indicates you either don't have the information that was asked for, or don't want to give it for some reason publicly. I am not taunting, by the way.

Caroline

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Laurel,

Or you can go here:

 

http://www.sitstay.com/pedi/

 

And use their free pedigree generator to create the pedigree. It's more labor intensive than scanning, since you have to type the information in, but if you don't have a scanner handy and don't want to deal with image files, this certainly works.

 

FWIW, having herding dogs in the pedigree doesn't necessarily make a good herding dog, but I'm sure you know that already.

 

J.

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>

 

I can't believe I wasted my time doing this, but I just searched the OFA database for two dogs, chosen at random, that your website says you own and have had puppies from. I checked the following variant spellings:

 

Brildwns Blazin Athlete

Brildwn's Blazin Athlete

Brildwns Blazing Athlete

Brildwn's Blazing Athlete

 

Brildwn's Queen of the Skys

Brildwn's Queen of the Skies

Brildwns Queen of the Skys

Brildwns Queen of the Skies

 

No OFA records on any of them. Did I get the names wrong? Or perhaps you had them checked in some other manner? What were the results?

 

>

 

What pups? According to your website, Felicity is 14 months old and has never been bred. What about the eyes of the bitches you HAVE bred?

 

Also, I can't believe I'm wasting my time asking these questions, but

 

1) How many litters have you bred?

 

2) Have you shown any dog anywhere in conformation? If so, where? Have you gotten any titles or points on any dog? If so, who and where?

 

3) Have you shown/trialed any dog in any venue in herding? If so, who and where?

 

4) If you have not shown any of your dogs in conformation, or trialed them, how exactly are you going about breeding for conformation and herding?

 

>

 

Why should anyone email you? You came here and joined in this discussion. Why shouldn't you answer the questions you were asked here?

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>

 

This is very true, Caroline, but the owner of the studs (excellent dogs, BTW) that Katelynn bred to is Jeanne Weaver, and I don't believe it's true of her. Also, it sounds as if Jeanne kept a pup from each litter, which she probably wouldn't have been inclined to do if she didn't think well of the bitches.

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Thank you Eileen! I am glad someone knows their handlers and dogs!

 

Caroline, just because I am a teenager (almost eighteen by the way which would make me an adult to many but that?s fine) doesn't mean all adults look down on me and it most certainly doesn?t mean I have no clue what I am talking about or doing.

 

I happen to study these dogs as more then just a hobby. Glyn Jones was extremely correct when he titled his book ?A Way of Life.?

 

Just last Saturday I sat at Jeanne's for almost eight hours (not including the hour and a half drive both ways on my own with three pups, one of which is hers) in the chilly weather just to watch lessons (also had a lesson of my own with my male) and to learn what I could from her for that day. She is an awesome handler and I am honored to take lessons with her plus have two puppies (not including the two others I co own) out of her amazing dogs from my very own female.

 

My own little personal library consists of just about every bloodline book out there (including the expensive ?Key Dogs of the Border Collie Family?) and my magazines are all old copies of The Ranch Dog Trainer, The Working Sheepdog, and The American Working Border Collie that I bought all on my own over the last few years wanting to brighten my knowledge on different bloodlines, handlers, and training methods.

 

So, if you cannot tell yet, Border Collies are most diffidently MY way of life.

 

And if Laurie still wishes to hear more about my dogs, the studs I used, or the bloodlines I have she can easily email me and we can set up a date to talk on the phone, just like I said earlier. I love to talk about dogs, their bloodlines, and their working styles. I just do not wish to type a book on here; I have better things to do with my time and it most diffidently has nothing to do with ?not having the information or not waiting to state it publicly? like you so rudely inclined.

 

So Caroline, I must ask that you do not ?assume? anything publicly about me, my dogs, or their breeding without hard fact following.

 

We are mature adults (young adult in my case, I guess), let?s act like it.

 

Katelynn

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Katelynn, I don't agree with what I said as being rude. I appreciate your communicating on here. If you had answered in that fashion originally, I wouldn't have had to ask again. That is great that you are learning so much and so interested in border collies. Good luck.

Thanks for perservering, would you consider posting a link to the thread in which you detail your non breeding contract stipulations? Perhaps since they went to all working homes, it wasn't necessary. How would I know that Katelynn? All the questions are just simple ones and I do not think I have been rude. I am sorry if you think that.

Caroline

 

 

Eileen, thanks for the clarification. I am not familiar with every good breeder.

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Anyone who has been around awhile and handled dogs at the upper level would recognize Jeanne Weaver's name. She has an excellent reputation and is a top Open handler and breeder. The lines Katelynn is breeding from are very good. I would think that if Jeanne Weaver is keeping pups from the bitch, it is testament to her approval of the quality of the breeding.

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Does anyone want me to eat crow? I live in the pacific NW and I see you are in Oregon, Elizabeth. I have not trialed, just am training my first dog. I have an older border collie that did hobby herding with me for a few years. I don't have the experience that most of you on here have. That said, I do think that the questions I asked were fair and not rude. Katelynn, if you took offense, pardon me.

Caroline

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I don't see anything wrong with asking people about their breeding decisions. It's one way I've learned a lot about dogs and various bloodlines out there. (For example, when I dicussed with a well-known shepherd from Scotland why I might NOT breed one of my bitches he liked, we discussed her positives and negatives and what I might want to look for in a stud--working characteristics and bloodlines. Having that discussion certainly increased *my* knowledge on the topic. Likewise, if I discuss with someone the reasoning that was behind a particular breeding choice they made, then I have increased my knowledge about the dogs and bloodlines involved.) I personally think that discussing breeding decisions is the *best* way to learn about the philosophies behind breeding good working dogs, but maybe I'm in a minority.

 

And folks who aren't trialing may well not know Jeanne Weaver's name--that doesn't make their questions any less legitimate.

 

I agree that Jeanne keeping pups from each litter says something positive about the breeding, but if she hadn't kept a pup from either litter it wouldn't necessarily mean that the litter was poorly bred. And there are indeed trialers out there who might well allow their dogs to be bred to a bitch without regard to that bitch's abilities. That's our capitalist society, and you just can't generalize that all top trialers are picky or not when it comes to breeding.

 

Anyway, if someone asked my why a bred dog A to dog B, I hope I'd have some logical explanation to give, and I would be happy to give it.... The advantage to doing so in a public forum is that more people can learn.

 

Just my opinion of course.

 

J.

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Does anyone want me to eat crow?
Caroline---CAW CAW CAW

 

(Sorry, couldn't help mysalf.)

 

In all seriousness though, we learn by asking questions. There was nothing wrong with you asking. By you asking, we all can learn, so continue to ask. One person's truth doesn't necessarily become yours. After awhile, you arrive at your own truth, what works for you---and what works for you can never be static, so you continue to question.

 

JMHO

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Originally posted by Spottydog:

I can't believe you bought Felicity specifically to breed, knowing she is a carrier.

Being a CEA carrier is not a reason to exclude a dog from breeding; it is something to test for and use to make proper breeding choices.

 

Collie Eye Anomaly (CEA) CEA is a congenital disorder where the parts of the eye, particularly the retinal area, do not develop normally. The severity of the disease ranges from no visual impairment to blindness. It is not a progressive disease and affected dogs normally only have mildly impaired vision. Puppies should be tested before 12 weeks of age, if possible, by a Diplomate of the Association of Canine Veterinary Ophthalmologists (DACVO) because some dogs have a mild form of the disease called "go normal", where normal tissue grows over and covers up the diseased area as the dog matures. Identification of "go normals" is important, as these dogs are affected with CEA and will produce affected puppies just as if they had full blown expression of the disease.

 

 

 

This disease is much more straightforward than HD in both its inheritance patterns and in our ability to control it. CEA is an autosomal recessive disorder. Autosomal means it is passed on and expressed equally in males or females. Recessive means a dog may carry a bad CEA gene and pass it on to its offspring without having the disease itself. A dog is defined as Clear if it has no bad CEA genes. A dog is defined as a Carrier if it has one bad CEA gene and one normal gene. Both the Carrier and the Clear dogs will be unaffected and will test negative for CEA in the eye exam. A dog is defined as Affected if it eye tests positive for CEA. The outcomes of the different crosses of these dogs are as follows:

 

 

 

Clear X Clear = 100% CEA Clear puppies

 

Clear X Carrier = on average, 50% Clear, 50% Carriers

 

Clear X Affected = 100% Carriers

 

Carrier X Carrier = on average, 25% Clear, 50% Carriers, 25% Affected

 

Carrier X Affected = on average, 50% Affected, 50% Carriers

 

Affected X Affected = 100% Affected

 

The incidence of CEA in Border Collies in North America is about 2.5%. The carrier rate is probably ten times that figure, or 25%.

 

Source: Health and Genetics of Border Collies - A Breeder and Buyer's Guide 2002

Note: this overview is somewhat outdated in that there is now a DNA test for CEA. I do not know, but would not be surprised if J Wilson's Spot is a carrier.

 

Mark

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Originally posted by Spottydog:

Thanks for clarifying! Very helpful info.

 

Still...isn't it irresponsible to be sending off puppies not knowing if they are carriers, especially if statistically 50% of them are?

The only way to know if a pup is a carrier is to spend the $180 (no discount) to test each pup (eye exams will not determine carriers); this is an unnecessary expense if the dog will never be bred. The best case (in my mind) is to have both parents DNA tested, inform the buyers of these results, and let them choose what to do next (assuming the buyers are not under a spay/neuter contract). Note that prior to the DNA test there was no way of knowing if a dog was a carrier, only those dogs that were affected (either by eye exam or producing affected pups). Many affected dogs were never detected since the disease may not produce symptoms. Also note that the carrier rate in the breed is predicted to be 25%; a high enough number such that you should "consider yourself notified that you have a carrier" (sorry, a bit crude in presentation but it makes my point clear).

 

Mark

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Originally posted by Spottydog:

PS. IF 25% are estimated carriers, that means 75% are clear. Now that the DNA testing can determine which is which, wouldn't it just be easier to breed that 75% and spay/neuter all carriers? It wouldn't take long to eradicate that way.

This has probably been discussed here before [edited to add: see links below]. Many working dog breeders would be *very uncomfortable* with tossing out bloodlines just because a dog is a carrier. You could use that knowledge to breed a carrier to a normal dog and ensure that no pups were affected without throwing out an exceptional dog. I think this is the approach most serious working dog breeders would take.

 

Here's a discussion that took place when the DNA test was first announced:

http://bordercollie.heatherweb.com/cgi-bin...t=001053#000000

 

And here's another that discusses CEA:

http://bordercollie.heatherweb.com/cgi-bin...t=001093#000000

 

J.

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The eye exam performed on puppies can only determine if the dog is "affected"; clear (normals) and carriers do not produce symptoms and therefore are not detected in eye exams.

 

You should find out what "eyes clear" really means; if this was by eye exams you can have two carriers which can produce affected pups.

 

The only way to determine carriers and normals is by the Optigen DNA test (and possibly statistically from multiple breedings).

 

If both parents are found by DNA testing to be CEA "normal" then all pups should be CEA "normal".

 

Yes, you have it correct (carrier x carrier); my Jody (carrier) is from this type of cross which was made prior to the CEA DNA test.

 

The 25% carrier rate was estimated based upon the available data at that time (no DNA test). I cannot remmeber the running results of the CEA testing to date. If the carrier rate proves to be 25% most of the remaining dogs would be normal while some fraction would be affected. Some affected (by DNA testing) could have been missed by an eye exam.

 

Now that the DNA testing can determine which is which, wouldn't it just be easier to breed that 75% and spay/neuter all carriers? It wouldn't take long to eradicate that way.

 

What if a dog like J Wilson's Spot (International Champion) was a carrier? Should this dog be excluded from breeding? Actually I would not be surprised if Spot was a carrier. What working insticts would we be throwing away with all the carriers?

 

Mark

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It is not prudent to just toss the genetics of the excellent working dogs out there that may be carriers. Having information in terms of who is a carrier, and making educated decisions on crosses is the way to keep good instinct strong and improve the breed while decreasing the percentage of affected dogs.

Caroline

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