Joint Stiffness

[Cheri McDonald]

When we had the xrays for the fish hook done I asked the vet to take a look at Briar's front leg. I noticed some stiffness and limping when we were up in the cold mountains.

 

He said she had lost some range of motion in both front "wrists". She is ball crazy and he thinks that the people that we adopted her from probably had her jumping as a young pup. He put her on glucosomine (sp).

 

I was brushing both dogs last night and noticed that the middle of her back felt very very hot. Just in a spot about the size of my hand. Could this be Arthritis too? :confused:

[AK dog doc]

Actually it could be, but an xray would tell you for sure. But it could also be anything else that causes inflammation - a pulled muscle, an infection, etc. Is she sensitive there?

[Cheri McDonald]

She doesn't seem to be sensitive there. But then I didn't mash on her back or anything. Since we are back in So cal and it is warm the limping is less. Only seems to be when she has lain around for a while in one spot. Once she gets up and starts moving there is no limping.

 

He took two x-rays looking for the hook. One from the side and one from the belly. Think I will call and ask him to look at her spine in the x-rays.

 

Thanks~

[BigD]

Ok, I'm probably way off here - but sometimes when I'm brushing Buddy if I stay in one spot too long it gets really hot. If I groom him and concentrate on an area - and I'm not talking "digging" into him or anything - just brushing out a mat or something - it will get super hot to the touch.

 

???

 

Don't know if that helps...probably not - but just wanted to say that.

 

Hope all is ok.

 

Denise

[PennyT]

Lyme Disease can cause the kind of stiffness you mention.

 

Penny

[2 Devils]

I also notice that when I brush the dogs, that they have a hot spot to touch. I realized that it is where my other hand is sort of holding the dog...

 

I would check for the warm spot again aslong as you have not "touched" the dog in a few minutes. It will definitely tell you if it was your hand or if you should make a trip to the vet.

[MrSnappy]

On this note, I have not found glucosamine or chondritin to be particularly effective for my arthritic dog. I have found that MSM and Vitamin C seem to do the trick ... he can walk up stairs again without struggling. Has anyone else found this?

 

RDM

[Cheri McDonald]

Back was fine in the x-rays. She must have just been hot that day.

 

RDM: What type of vit C do you give and what dose? I read somewhere about ester C and how well it does for doggy arthirtis.

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by Cheri McDonald:

RDM: What type of vit C do you give and what dose? I read somewhere about ester C and how well it does for doggy arthirtis.

I actually give regular Vitamin C, and I give it to all the dogs as a preventative. I give 1000 ml a day. I read a study a while back about how dogs with histories of CHD in their lines were given regular doses of Vitamin C and they didn't develop CHD as they aged ... anyway. I don't use Esther C as it's very expensive, and I have found that Vitamin C is working pretty good, in conjunction with the MSM. Also lots of EFAs and calcium seem to help as well.

 

RDM

[trailrider]

MSM seems to help my older dogs. The last two were helped until almost fifteen years of age. They were able to be quite active.

[juliepoudrier]

The reason some vets recommend ester C is because vitamin C (ascorbic acid) is, well, acidic, and so at high doses could cause gastric upset. I presume that if you are not having problems with regular vitamin C then you're okay, but folks should be aware that the gastric upset can be an issue with regular vitamin C--if you use it and your dog appears to develop an upset stomach, excess gas, etc., then you may want to switch to the ester C, which is less acidic because it's esterified, to see if alleviates the gastric upset problems.

 

I have a CHD dog who recently also had a trauma to one hip and is now showing intermittent lameness (you never would have known she was dysplastic before the accident unless you saw the X-rays--no lameness). She is on glucosamines (that is, oral as well as Adequan), as well as vitamin C, but not MSM. I have a consult with a holistic vet in a little over a week, so I will definitely ask about adding something with MSM if she thinks it will help. She also will develop a physical therapy plan for my dog. If she has any general words of wisdom about other supplements that will help with arthritic/HD dogs, I will pass them along....

 

J.

[SoloRiver]

Solo did something to his left knee and possibly a lumbar disc recently. He's functioning all right but he had an acute pain episode that took us to the emergency room (where they couldn't figure out what was wrong with him, and sent him home with Rimadyl that I won't give him). I asked his vet/behaviorist to take a look at him and she pointed out some gait abnormalities in addition to the ones I thought I was seeing.

 

She had me put Solo on a glucosamine/chondroitin supplement, and he's not to run or jump until further notice. As you can imagine, neither of us is finding this stricture to be much fun. I ordered a glucosamine/chondroitin from Puritan's Pride (they have GREAT prices, by the way), but it doesn't have MSM. My understanding is that the studies on MSM are pretty equivocal, but I may add an MSM supplement after further research.

 

I also give fish oil, vitamin E, and vitamin C (ascorbate). He's only been on the glucosamine/chondroitin for about a week, and his deficiencies are subtle, so I can't say I see any difference as of yet.

[HerdinGal]

I've had no luck with glucosomine pills or MSN, but I have seen Adequen work wonders.

on the same note Ester C seems inneffective but I've had great results with a form of vitamin C called sodium ascorbate, in particular a veterinarian designed supplement called MegaCPlus put out by Othromolecular Specialties. Unlike the commen ascorbic acid it didn't give my dogs trots with a small dose. and higher doses seemed to be just the trick for certain dogs of mine.

 

In the end you have to try this and that until you find the nutrient your dog needs to make the difference

[juliepoudrier]

Melanie,

The reason the original vet who started one of my dogs (Willow, for an old knee injury that was showing signs of arthiritis) on the product I currently use, without MSM, is for exactly the reason you stated--she said she hadn't seen any real evidence of effectiveness of MSM, nor any good studies in dogs (this was several years ago though).

 

As for Rimadyl, I too was in the "do not use" camp, but it was helping some with Jill after her injury, and I just use it very judiciously. Lately, it doesn't seem to be helping as much (which is part of the reason why she's being evaluated by the holistic vet, probably followed by an orthopedist). As for Adequan, can't say one way or the other, though other people swear by it, and I figure as long as I can afford it, it certainly cant *hurt.*. But then Jill has a couple of issues gong on, so it's hard to know what is a natural progression as a result of HD, what is the result of the dislocation, and what is a result of the combination of the two.

 

Prednisone is another med I don't particularly like, but my 10-y.o. border collie mix has a problem disc in his neck and when things become inflamed he is in "screaming" pain. Two days on prednisone and he acts like a very young dog again (oh, maybe he's just past his normal lifespan....sorry, couldn't resist that jab). So, although I don't like using that particular medication, in the end it sure beats having a dog who screams in pain every time he moves. Just something to consider.

 

Of course if all you're noticing is subtle changes in gait, then probably high-powered medications are best avoided. I know I don't use them if and until they are really needed. And I should add that with both Rimadyl and prednisone I use the lowest dose possible for the shortest time necessary to alleviate the pain (and for the pred of course I wean Indy off--don't just abruptly stop it).

 

J.

[SoloRiver]

Hi Julie,

 

I don't want to give Solo Rimadyl, because he is already on medications that require regular monitoring of liver function -- such side effects are infrequent but known. Giving Rimadyl also seems to be like Russian roulette, albeit much safer. The adverse effect reports seem to indicate that either your dog is fine with it, or he dies, and if he dies, it happens immediately. I've given Solo one dose of Rimadyl (right after his trip to the ER) and it didn't seem to do much of anything either way. So now I have these very expensive analgesics sitting here on my desk. Is there any reason why I can't take them if I have muscle pain?

 

Solo doesn't appear to be in any pain, but he is rather physically insensitive (which is why I rushed him to the ER when he did appear to be in pain). He still looks like he's ready to outrun speeding trains and leap tall buildings in a single bound. But, when he walks (not when he trots or runs) his right hind foot drags slightly every fourth or fifth stride. And his left knee looks unstable. Our vet thinks he injured the knee playing and perhaps at the same time knocked a lumbar disc slightly out of whack. After his pain episode he didn't defecate for over 24 hours and showed no desire to. This is consistent with an injury around L1/L2. So, he's allowed to trot and do things that won't flex his back much or stress his knee, but not run or jump.

 

I'm getting a lot of practice rollerblading!

[AK dog doc]

SoloRiver, I'd be interested to know where you found the report about Rimadyl that says that if a dog has a problem with it it is quickly fatal - particularly as you (like several other members here) seem intelligent, well-informed, and medically astute. Rimadyl is by no means for every dog, and there ARE fatal drug reactions possible with ANY drug (which can be idiosyncratic to a given dog) and fatal drug interactions (which can be idiaosyncratic as well, or ones that are well-known, but your vet should know about those and refrain from mixing those meds together) - but that isn't a hallmark of Rimadyl use. The primary problem Rimadyl can cause is that in *some dogs* - but not many - there is a problem metabolizing it in the liver. If they're going to have a problem with it, that will usually show up in the first six weeks of usage. At that point the medicaltion is withdrawn and the liver generally goes back to its usual happy self. However, you're right that the more meds you have on board that require liver metabolism, the more work you're asking of it and hence the greater the risk of overwhelming the liver. At any rate, having prescribed literally hundreds of thousands of doses of Rimadyl over the years, I have yet to have a dog die of it, let alone die of it right after starting it. Maybe that's just my good luck, but having saved many a dog's life with pain control (since the other option was euthanasia), I'm glad to have such medications at my disposal for use when other things fail. I personally feel that if Adequan and nutritional suplements and chiropracty and acupuncture and physical therapy and rest (plus or minus surgical corrections where necessary) will work, those are better methods, since there is a chance of correcting the underlying problem. But if they can't, there's no reason the dog should have to suffer. (BTW, Rimadyl is NOT the only pain drug I use, and I am not married to the idea of Rimadyl over everything, by any means. It's just one weapon in my arsenal.)

 

If you are uncomfortable using Rimadyl, by all means mention that to your vet and see if there's something else they can offer you, if pain control is necessary (apart form the humane issues, dogs heal faster if they're not painful.) And I can comiserate with you about the expensive drugs just sitting there doing nothing, but no, unfortunately you can't take them (assuming you weren't kidding about that, that is ...) Rimadyl isn't labelled for use in humans, and since the cytochrome P450 enzyme system in the liver (which is what metabolises drugs) is different in humans than dogs, I'd be pretty careful about trying something that has not been tested in my species. (Rimadyl is Carprofen, BTW, in case there IS a study on the human side about it - but if so I'm unaware of it. As a further BTW, Carprofin is in the same general family as Ibuprofin, which I HAVE seen kill dogs with a few doses (generally from fatal GI bleeds) - but Ibu isn't well-handled by the dog's P450's and rises to toxic levels in a hurry, whereas Carprofin doesn't.)

 

Anyway, that's my perspective on this... hope I'm not stepping on any toes. Have to get to work so I can't re-read and edit a bunch, so I'll just say I'm only trying to impart information; I'm not judging anyone. Hope I haven't offended.

[sea4th]

Within the last month, 2 of my old timers, B.G., a 72 lb. rescue border collie and Lena, my Caucasian ovcharka (13 + ) yrs. old collapsed. Their back legs just went out. I don't know BG's history---he was a fat senior when he came to me, but I know Lena's history. While her hips are better than average for a "giant" breed, she does have some arthritis. About 5 yrs. ago, I noticed some stiffness in her gait. I opted not to put her on Rimadyl but put her on Cosequin instead. She was on Cosequin for about a year and I noticed a big improvement and we didn't experience another problem since---until about a month ago. This time, I didn't hestitate to put her and B.G. on Rimadyl. They were up and about within 3 days.

 

I've refused Rimadyl for my younger dogs, but for these senior dogs, quality of life--i.e., being able to ambulate, is more important than possibility of the liver crashing, and they will die of *something*, anyway, probably in the not too distant future. For for them, I'm greatful for an option like Rimadyl.

 

An "ovcharka" friend of mine, won't use Rimadyl after an 8 yr. old Rottie bitch of hers died of liver failure less than a week of being on Rimadyl. She's not one to be swayed by heresay, but being burned once like that is enough to jade anyone's perception and maintaining an objective "eye" becomes really difficult even though statistics say that most dogs do OK on Rimadyl. There's enough "buzz" out there about Rimadyl that I would prefer to try alternative forms of treatment first, and only use Rimadyl as a last resort, as in Lena's & BG's case.

 

And even though I look at Rimadyl as a last resort, I'm glad it's an option.

 

Vicki

[HerdinGal]

I know of 2 dogs who were dead of liver failure within 72 hours of the first dose of Rimadyl. Both were young and had no laboratory indication sof liver problems.

2 of my friends are vet techs, and both of their clinics (one general practice, other Emergency Only) no long prescribe it except in rare cases. Too many documented problems from within their own client base.

[Tassie]

On the other hand, my old Kelpie Collie bitch went onto Rimadyl after the less aggressive options ? glucosamine/chondroitin supplementation, pentosan sulfate (Cartrofen injections here), and Metcam seemed to be losing their effect. My vet was cautious ? ran bloods first to check everything was functioning OK, and warned me about problem signs to look out for. I can?t quite remember, but I think she was on it for about 2 years until the leg collapse problems became so severe I had to put her down at 15 and a half. (She obviously hadn't read the Jon Katz 8 year life span thig either - nor had my BC who was still competing in UD and in Jumping Dog just for fun when he was 12! )

 

Jess was very much in the same situation ? last resort for senior dogs ? as Vicki?s dogs, although the impact of the Rimadyl was much more subtle than Vicki mentions.

[AK dog doc]

Hmmm... maybe we've just been lucky, but in a four doctor practise, we have NEVER had a dog die from Rimadyl use, and we use it often (client base of over 10,000 clients, many with multiple pets, plus the cold is aggravating to arthritis, so there's a need for it.) However, we do like to screen liver function first, and I will say that we have had dogs die while ON Rimadyl - just not FROM Rimadyl. One thing to point out about AK, though - we're geographically isolated from the rest of the country, and while there are certainly "imports" from all over the world here, our dog population is probably more genetically closed than anything in the lower 48. So it could be that we just have a lucky genetic array here. I'll poll my friends in the lower 48 who are vets and see if they've had any die of Rimadyl. Now I'm wondering how much my patient base's genetics have to do with the total lack of any such event in our practise. I'll also point out that on the very rare dog that vomits the Rimadyl, we withdraw the drug immediately and no one has had a problem for more than 24 hours after that. I've used it on some of my terminal cancer patients at twice the dosage - since their time is limited but if their pain is not controlled their time is done - and so far none of them has had a problem with the Rimadyl (all have died of their disease, usually because we euthanis when quaility goes.) I'll report back if any of my pals in the lower 48 have seen this kind of thing. Certainly any dog can have any reaction to any drug, though, no matter how safe it is in the other 99.9%. No drug is 100% safe in 100% of animals.

[SoloRiver]

AK,

 

I'll admit that the "quickly fatal" analysis came from, well, public opinion and not clinical studies. I did already know that Rimadyl has garnered a very high number of AERs. So I sort of put 2 and 2 together and got 22, which is not precise. At the same time, when so many dog owners, including ones whose judgment I trust, are reluctant to give the drug and either owned or knew dogs who seemingly had bad reactions to the drug, it gives me pause. Of course, one can never be certain that the drug itself caused the damage (particularly lacking a post-mortem, which most owners don't opt for), but the litany of documented complaints against Rimadyl is consistent with side effects seen with other NSAIDs, which makes me think that it can't all be in people's heads.

 

I tend to fall in the middle on these sorts of issues. I'm not one of those people who thinks vaccinations routinely kill dogs, but I'm also not one of those people who thinks you have to vaccinate every year. For the majority of dogs I agree that Rimadyl is safe to use, as that's what the research indicates. And if it's a real quality of life issue that cannot effectively be addressed by other means, I would use Rimadyl. But, when possible, I'd rather avoid it.

 

The part that bothers me the most is that Solo's been prescribed Rimadyl twice now, once after his root canal and once after his acute pain episode. Neither time was I warned about any possible side effects, or given any literature about the drug. Both times, the veterinarians prescribing the drug knew that Solo was on drugs that also may have side effects affecting liver function. I suspect that they were not familiar with the side effects of these drugs (they are anti-anxiety medications -- and this IS a quality of life issue in this case), but they should have been. Even though his doses are low and his liver function and values are normal, I would still think they should have wanted to discuss this issue with me. If Solo weren't on fluoxetine and ami, I would be less reluctant to use Rimadyl. But in his case, he doesn't appear to be in pain anyway and has no problems getting around, so there doesn't seem to be any reason to be giving him NSAIDs at all.

[AK dog doc]

Melanie

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'm with you - if the pain (presuming there is some) can be addressed by other means, by all means, do so. I personally feel we should use the minimum amount of medication(s) needed to do the job. If your dog isn't in pain, no need for painkillers. If he's stoic, just as a point of information, he may BE in pain but not show it. But then it becomes a question of whether or not it affects either his health or his quality, which we can't ask him (there are some objective measures - heart and respiratory rates, blood pressure, and so on - but most of the time these are not measured at home, since most people don't have a doppler or a pulse ox (etc) in their medicine cabinet. Go figure! ). You live with him and know him better than anyone else in the world, so you're best situated to speak to his quality. Acute lameness issues are not going to affect his longterm health in most cases (a few diseases such as bone cancer being the exceptions), so I'd say your choice not to add meds that hs doesn't need is a wise one.

 

I agree that your vets should discuss side effects of medications with you, and moreover drug interactions with you. I'm not sure why that hasn't been done... do you feel comfortable enough with your vet to point it out or to ask them to go over it with you? They may NOT be up-front farmilliar with the side effects of his behavioral meds; my personal slant is that I need to learn these things if they're on board in my patients. I can't speak for anyone else, though. If I don't know the side effects, I tell the client so - this is not a drug I use frequently (or a drug combination, as the case may be), so I need to do some research to apprise myself of the interactions and side effects so I can best advise them. (Luckily, so far no one has been mad at me for saying I didn't know and I needed to do some research.)

 

I think sometimes internet rumors get started that magnify the number of cases where a reaction happens - though I by NO means dispute those that people here know of by personal experience. This is why I'm polling my other vet pals - in order to find out if my experience is atypical. God knows, it could be.

 

As a BTW, have you ever pursued any "alternative" pain control with him? - You may have said so somewhere, and I'm just not remembering. Some of my patients respond well to acupuncture, massage and/or chiropractic treatments (since dogs aren't suggestable, if this works in them, it's because it works. No placebo effect. How handy is THAT? ) And of course there are the nutritional supplements as already mentioned here and there... most of those are antioxidants, which "mop up" free radicals which result from inlammation but which can in and of themselves CAUSE inflammation and therefore pain and tissue injury. Many are hard to OD on, though it is possible. Like anything else, though, each dog's response is unique.

 

Anyway, probably most everyone here knows that already, so no need to belabor that point. I'm glad your dog is "feeling no pain" (and without even a good stiff scotch to help him on that! - if you want to talk about liver damage... )

[2 Devils]

My acd was prescribed rimadyl after a knee injury. Luckily she had no side effects from the medicine. She still gets a dose about every 6 months or so if she has had a particularly busy flyball day (tourneys starting up again).

 

A neigbor has her older acd on rimadyl with no side effects. They actually have just agreed to participate in some kind of rimadyl and food study. I am not sure exactly what it is but there is a new food out that the vets are trying to get sanctioned (not sure of correct word). The food has supposedly allowed folks to decrease the use of rimadyl. This dog spends the whole winter on rimadyl for severe arthritis so it will be neat to see how this study goes.

 

My vets are very good and tell folks about the side effects and expect the owners to bring the dogs in every couple months for blood work. The stories I hear make me really appreciate my vets more and more.

[SoloRiver]

Hi AK,

 

I do keep track, albeit not in any rigorous fashion, of Solo's heart and respiratory rates (as well as other generic measures of distress like pupil dilation and drooling). It's sort of second nature because of his anxiety issues. I really don't believe that he's in pain, other than perhaps a dull ache that he easily ignores. But of course, I can't really know.

 

The Rimadyl he was prescribed was not intended to be used long-term on either occasion. Both prescriptions occurred at the university vet hospital, where he doesn't normally go, the first time because I wanted a dental specialist and dedicated anesthesiologist for his root canal, the second time because we were at the emergency room. So, neither vet knew me or Solo well. I didn't know he'd been prescribed Rimadyl either time until we were checking out

and the receptionist handed me the bottle.

 

I think alternative techniques can be very useful for managing pain. There seems to be plenty of data on that and many of my friends use acupuncture or chiropractic treatments on their sport dogs. Solo's regular vet (other than his behaviorist, who is of course a vet and who diagnosed his gait abnormalities) is a holistic vet, so I could take advantage of these modalities if I wanted to, but in Solo's case there's a cost/benefit issue because he's fear aggressive and gets extremely stressed out by vet visits (not to mention the effect on the vet). I have a really hard time imagining him sitting quietly through an adjustment or an acupuncture treatment unless I was the one administering it, which I'm not qualified to do. So I wouldn't opt for either treatment unless he really really seemed to need them. He does get acupressure massages every night that he enjoys.

 

His vet/behaviorist is going to look at him again in a couple of weeks and I'll know more then. Hopefully all this not running and not jumping, and the supplements, will have made a difference.

[AK dog doc]

Hi Melanie!

I bet Solo more than "enjoys" the massage... I personally think they can be very theraputic (not just fun!) and can increase the rate at which anmals heal becasue of the increased circulation and physical comfort effects. Apart from which massage stimulates endorphin release, which addresses many of the pain and anxiety issues it sounds like you cope with on a day-to-day basis. Solo is fortunate to have a home where he gets that kind of attention; I imagine his troubles would be a lot worse without it. And even if you're not 'rigorous' in assessing Solo's vitals, at least you have a sort of ballpark baseline so you'll be better able to assess if he starts to veer out of it. So even if you can't know *for sure*, you have a pretty good shot at having a sense of it. Although he may be harder to tell than the next dog over since he is stoic and also has some other non-pain-related issues that might mask it a bit, you've been paying close attention, so you're likely to spot anything that pushes too far out of his comfort level. I bet you do pretty well with this, even if you can't ask him to tell you in English how much it hurts.

 

Maybe your behaviorist vet can suggest a pain-control regimen for you to request IF Solo ever needs dental or surgical procedures for which pain control is an issue. Especially at a university they should have a pretty good pharmaceutical array, and certainly can order things if it's known in advance they're needed (as for non-emergency but necessary procedures).

 

Also, I don't know if this would work if he's fear-agressive, but if you ever DID need acupuncture (et al), would he be okay with a house call, or is it the *vet* rather than the hospital setting that gets him worked up? House calls are expensive, but sometimes they can be arranged. (Sometimes not, though.) Just a thought to have in the back of your head should it ever be an issue - which, hopefully, it won't.