Request for help...again (Calming down; job; leash; cuddling)

[waffletastics]

Hi Guys!

Long time no read! Sadie and I are doing good. We had a health scare recently (acute diarrhea, but she is fine!)

I need your help again.

1. Sadie has an immensely hard time to calm down outside. Not necessarily on a walk, but once I played with her or she plays with another dog, she won't calm down. Even after 20 minutes of just sitting, no dog running, no playing she is still panting a tornado. Now, this is all still outside! At home, she sometimes needs a little time, but has actually gotten quite good at setteling on her own. Sometimes she still needs help (house leash or crating), but that's ok.
I am almost confident to rule out, that she is hot because at home she calms down much faster, and she has trouble settling outside no matter the weather. It cannot be thirst, for there is always water supplied when we have a play date, or if I play with her. So how do I help/teach her to settle outside? I am not joking when I say I am afraid she will die of a heartattack if she keeps this up

2. What are 'jobs' you give your BCs? I read somewhere, they need a job, and if they don't herd sheep, you need to give them one. I have no clue, what job I can give Sadie?

3. What do you give your dogs to occupy/engage them for a while? Everything beyond ... I don't know the word in englisch. In german it's 'Rinderkopfhaut'. A packaging translated it as 'beef scalp'. I haven't found bully sticks where I live, maybe I just didn't realize they were. Anyway, Sadie will chew a good while on a 30cm stick, whick is fine...but I don't always want to give her these sticks. What do you guys give your dogs to occupy them, any tips or ideas?

4. On a longer leash she is quite good (5m - about 10ft). She hardly pulls and walks nicely. But on the shorter leash she pulls almost constantly. I tried clicker training - didn't really work, I tried just stopping until she relaxes the leash - didn't work, I tried working with the voice command slow and a slight pull (only with the harness!) if she ignored the command - didn't work. Any ideas?
Oh! And since a month or so she is a nightmare if we walk with another dog. She was ok before, but now she pulls non stop!

5. Sadie is a cuddle bug, I know that. Whenever friends or family come over she loves to be pet and cuddle on the floor or on the couch. I don't mean hugging! but snuggling. My best friend stayed with me for a week some time ago and they would have cuddle sessions lasting the whole afternoon. But with me she doesn't cuddle/snuggle. Whenever I attempt to, she starts panting shortly after and walk off, lying down somewhere else... And to be honest this hurts a bit. If she just wasn't cuddly then ok, but she cuddles with literally everyone else - except me (now she does come and collect/demand pets every now and again). When she was little - lets be honest, a few monts ago - she would cuddle, going as far as sleeping on me, sprawled out with but a care in the world. Am I doing something wrong? Am I petting her wrong? Help?

Also, please let me compensate you spending your prescious time reading and answering my questions in the only real currency there is:

    Look at Those paws!!!!

[waffletastics]

I swear! She either believes to be a cat or a fox!

[Rosalee]

Beautiful puppy! I love the picture with the mouthful of grass, our puppy grabs chunks of dried sod (?why?) on walks and wants to play with them too!

i also am curious about replies to the job thing, having read something similar. But I think a job can mean what you want it to mean. If you know what I mean. Something that is interesting mentally for the dog I guess and they feel is their job, could be learning trick routines, fetching things for you at home. I think.

as far as the walking, I think it just might take awhile. With ours took time to learn loose leash walking. We used the stop if she was pulling technique, or turn and walk the other way if she persisted. It took time and patience for sure, but did work in the long run. She does still sometimes pull, not in general, but if there was a dog she wants to charge over to or something, we are working on the look at that game right now. She walks well loose leash otherwise and we do most walks like this. If she does pull, I just stop and she gets it now. We have tried to teach her a sort of casual heel to use sometimes, this has not been great, but I find with that if she isn’t getting it I can use the “watch” command in the heel to kind of get her focus back and then just heel. But we don’t heel much, I should probably practice a bit more so we can do it if we have to.

[Lawgirl]

Firstly, Sadie is absolutely cute!

For chewing, you can either get a kong and freeze treats/kibble inside with something to stick them together like natural yoghurt or peanut butter.  That will keep her occupied while she tries to lick the goodies out.  Alternatively you could look at getting a deer antler for her to chew on, or a goat horn.  Antler is harder, does not smell and will last longer, but has some risk of tooth damage (as does bones).  I recommend getting pieces of whole antler, not split antler.  Goat horn is softer and a bit smelly but probably less risk of tooth damage.

A quick Google translate says a bully stick is called ein Tyrannenstock in German.  Essentially it is dried bull penis, often braided, used as a chew.

A job can be as simple as Sadie being your shadow.  What is meant by giving a BC a job, in my mind, is that they need some mental activity.  If you do not work their mind, they can become bored and destructive.  Sometimes just being with you and anticipating what you are doing is enough stimulation.  Other dogs need more active work, like nosework (smelling things out) or trick training, or agility, or sheep herding.  Some will pick their own job, like guarding the house from everything going past, including planes and birds.  This last one is not a good thing.  Every dog is different in what level of job they need.

As for the cuddle bug thing, one of my boys will seek attention from every guest, but does not come up and cuddle with me very often.  It may just be that Sadie feels secure in her connection with you, and does not need a physical touch to be reassured, while she does seek assurance of physical attention from strangers that the two of them are on good terms.  If Sadie follows you around, and keeps her attention on you when you move, you have a bond even without cuddling.  And that may come back when she gets out of her teenager phase, which it sounds like she may be in.

I am afraid I have no real advice about the calming down when out and about.  I have not really had a lot of luck with my boys with that; the great outdoors is just too exciting.  I was told that rubbing circles on cheeks and rubbing down on the chest was calming, but it never made a huge difference for my boys.

As for loose lead walking, the advice from Rosalee above is good.

[D'Elle]

Question:  You say :" I tried clicker training - didn't really work, I tried just stopping until she relaxes the leash - didn't work, I tried working with the voice command slow and a slight pull (only with the harness!) if she ignored the command - didn't work. "

How did you use the clicker when you were trying it, and for how long did you try that method?

How long did you work with her using the stopping method?

I ask these because a lot of people are not yet fully familiar with how to use the clicker in training this, and also I am wondering how long you kept at it because it does take a very long time with some dogs to train them to walk nicely. The thing to do is choose one good method and stick with it, be 100% consistent and simply do not give up....ever. And eventually it will work.

If you only gave each method a month or less of working on it every day, that is not enough time.

[waffletastics]

@Rosalee
You should see her with a pine cone! It is hilarious! She loves playing eith them.

I just realised, I forgot the turn around and go into another direction method. How long did it take her to catch on?

 

@Lawgirl
Do you fill the kong all the way? or just stick the kibble and yoghurt on the sides?
I haven't tried the antlers yet, she got a chwe root when she was a puppy (bit on the softer side to not damage puppy teeth), but she hardly uses it anymore.
And I just realized a bully stick is an Ochsenziemer, we hardly ever have the braded version. Normally it is just dried.

When it is agility for a job, is it enough if it is only once or twice a week? I guess the question is, does the job have to be a daily thing?
And how do I 'tell' her, this is your job? Or does she either accept it as such or not?

Oh. I never thought about it that way.
Oh she definately is in her teenage phase! Gladly, she is actually a veeery good girl!

Yeah, I heard the rubbing advice as well...I mean she let's me but that's about it, doesn't really do much.

 

@D'Elle

I was told by a trainer to click and reward her for not pulling, and 'reset' her after pulling by starting again with her by my side. (She is not actually my trainer. I meet her on a walk and she just gave me a tip)
I would start with Sadie by my side and start walking, if she doesn't pull, click and reward, a few steps later click and reward for not pulling, and so on and so forth. Once she has that down, I was to draw the times between clicks out more and more. This kind of worked but I just realized, I didn't specify that I mean the pulling when she doesn't have to heel. She is allowed to sniff and do her stuff, but not to drag me around doing it. The main problem with this method was, as soon as she saw or sniffed something interesting, she ignored the clicker and the reward (when she didn't pull) and eventually started pulling and it only works with rewards. I guess the reward is not high/good enough? The trainer told me to try it a month.

The stop method I also tried for a month. I guess I assumed she would catch on quickly since she normally catches on quite quickly.
What would you recommend?

Do you have any pointers on camling Sadie down outside? I looked on the forum, but only found calming in generell or for reactive dogs. Or even a link or book.

[Lawgirl]

I have never actually used a Kong, as I have multiple dogs who generally have no problems settling, and either play with each other or chew on antlers, so I cannot give good advice on how full, but my guess would be completely full.  The Kong may even end up being one meal for your Sadie.

In my experience, so long as the dog's mind is engaged, that becomes their "job", no matter what it is.  You don't have to tell them, just do something that engages them and makes them think.  Ideally it is something you both enjoy.  Formal training in whatever you choose may be once or twice a week, but there will be lots of little exercises you can do, even inside, on a daily basis.  You can even have multiple jobs, like learning loose lead walking outside, and learning nosework inside.

My understanding of clicker training is that you have to "charge" the clicker before you start to use it for training.  So in a quiet location without distractions, you ask for a simple action that your dog already knows, and then click and immediately treat with the highest value treat around.  Click/treat, click/treat, click/treat until your dog immediately associates the clicker sound with a GOOD THING/REWARD.  Only then are you ready to start adding in distractions.  With the stop, you must be completely consistent.  If you allow any sort of pulling/going to the end of the leash, you undo all the progress you have made. You may or may not be able to use these methods now, as Sadie knows if she waits long enough, you will give up.  You may need to try the turn and go in the other direction whenever she pulls method, if you have not used that yet.  You may end up travelling over the same four metres of pavement over and over and over.  She is smart, she will work out what causes the change in direction and what she has to do to get where she wants to go.  But be aware of an "extinction burst" - it is mentioned multiple times on these boards.  Search and you will see it described.  Things may get worse before they improve, especially with a teenage dog.

 

[Rosalee]

Haha, mine likes pine cones too. 

I couldnt say exactly how long it took. I pretty much started it right away from day 1 of walking, she was a puller from the get go. She has always been quite sensitive and reactive, so leash walking was an area that required attention from the start. Pretty much it took awhile. I would say she was walking pretty nicely by 5 months, there is the odd slip up and then I stop and she remembers. As lawgirl said, there was lots of stop and start, lots of days when we didn’t cover much ground on a walk, but we did get there eventually. Stick with it. And yeah, if the stopping isn’t getting her attention to you, turn and walk the other way. 

[Rosalee]

Sorry, about the kongs too. I do give Katie kongs, actually part of her meal is a Kong. It is more licking than chewing I guess, but does take her about half hour to get through it. Keeps her occupied and settled, settling in the house HAS been an issue for us. Not like someone here told me once that their dog slept for 3 hours after the Kong, but settled for a bit at least. 

 

I fill it it up with layer of kibble, then layer of peanut butter or yogurt and so on and kind of stir it up. If I have bits of cooked chicken or something I will mix that in too and freeze. I had never used kongs before and looked up online different ways to fill them and there are lots of cool recipes. I just found that simple worked best for me.

[urge to herd]

As far as 'jobs', for a non working border collie a job can be anything. Silly tricks, obedience, agility, nose work, etc. If you google 'things to do with your dog' you'll find there are several lists of tricks you can teach your dog. 

My experiences with this breed (I've got my 4th border collie) tells me that a border collie needs to be in a partnership of 'work' with their human. For pet bc, 'work' can be anything. I've seen youtube videos of b collies picking up laundry and putting it in a laundry basket. Or collecting their toys into a pile, etc.  I believe that your dog wants to do something WITH you, whatever that something is.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Ruth & Gibbs

[D'Elle]

On 6/2/2021 at 1:22 AM, waffletastics said:

@Rosalee

@D'Elle

I was told by a trainer to click and reward her for not pulling, and 'reset' her after pulling by starting again with her by my side. (She is not actually my trainer. I meet her on a walk and she just gave me a tip)
I would start with Sadie by my side and start walking, if she doesn't pull, click and reward, a few steps later click and reward for not pulling, and so on and so forth. Once she has that down, I was to draw the times between clicks out more and more. This kind of worked but I just realized, I didn't specify that I mean the pulling when she doesn't have to heel. She is allowed to sniff and do her stuff, but not to drag me around doing it. The main problem with this method was, as soon as she saw or sniffed something interesting, she ignored the clicker and the reward (when she didn't pull) and eventually started pulling and it only works with rewards. I guess the reward is not high/good enough? The trainer told me to try it a month.

The stop method I also tried for a month. I guess I assumed she would catch on quickly since she normally catches on quite quickly.
What would you recommend?

Do you have any pointers on camling Sadie down outside? I looked on the forum, but only found calming in generell or for reactive dogs. Or even a link or book.

First, you have not given the method being used enough time.  The thing with training a dog is you pick only one method, a good one recommended by people who know what they are doing - and then you simply stick to it and never stop, no matter how long it takes the dog to learn the new behavior.  The fact that it takes a long time doesn't mean it doesn't work. It just means it's taking longer to get that dog to learn that particular thing.

So, try this. And keep doing it. And do it 100% consistently, and never ever let the dog pull on the leash without doing this. Anyone else who walks the dog has to agree to this also because if one person lets her pull she will not learn not to pull.

The dog pulls, and not only do you stop walking, but you turn around and walk in the other direction until the dog is up next to you, whereupon you ask the dog to sit. You count to 5 while the dog is sitting, and then start walking again. Dog pulls - repeat. Repeat. Repeat. And if it takes 6 months, you keep doing it for 6 months. The idea is this: as long as the dog is not pulling, she gets to go over here or there, sniff whatever she likes for as long as she wants to, but if she pulls all the fun stops and she has to sit and wait before starting again. The dog learns (however long it takes) that pulling never, ever results in getting anywhere, but walking nicely does.

The click when in heel position is fine for heel training. But doesn't apply to leash pulling, as you have found. And the person who told you to try it for a month was wrong. You don't stop after a month.

As for calming her down outside, if she knows down, you can try putting her into a down and asking her to hold it for 5 seconds every time she gets overexcited. And also, you need to be aware of the triggers that make the dog so excited, so that you can ask for the Down before she goes overboard, because it's hard to get through to the dog who is already excited.