Fetch & Chase

[Rooster]

Hello everyone,

I’ve had my rescue BC, Rooster, for just over three months. We’re guessing he’s about 6yo. He was previously a stock dog who became uninterested in both cattle and sheep. He’s been to several obedience classes and we are now taking a short break to reinforce what we’ve learned. We are always looking for fun and engaging outlets for him during the week and yesterday was his first day playing with a ball AND fetch with a stick (I assumed he never played ball in his past life). I was STOKED and I’m hoping to continue this so we can use it as a reward and exercise whenever he’s ready.

We have a 6 yo male shepherd who lives for ball and frisbee, and now a BC who loves to chase our shepherd while he’s chasing the frisbee. 
I’d like to get to a place where I feel comfortable with Rooster’s *chasing*, have them at the park together, and avoid injury in both dogs. (We spend time with them both separately and together, training and playing, btw)
Here’s what we have been doing for these park sessions:
-Rooster locks in our shepherd
-I have him lie down and wait
-I move our shepherd a distance away so he can get a head start and throw the frisbee
-Rooster chases and I call him off before he reaches our shepherd [many times he realizes he's too far behind and backs off] and throw them both a party when they come back. There is no party if he lunges at our shepherd
This is of course a work in progress, but it’s going pretty well and both dogs seem to be enjoying themselves. We were trying this as a way to manage the situation. So far Rooster hasn’t chased another dog, and doesn’t have much interest in other dogs, but I could see how this could encourage chasing. 
My question is: Is it okay to play this way? I don’t want to send him mixed signals. Could this be detrimental to our training? 
We don’t have sheep for him to herd, but we will have chickens in the spring, so witnessing him chasing now has been very beneficial for me to understand him better.
 

[gcv-border]

Sounds like Rooster and your GSD are getting a lot of good exercise.

WRT Rooster:  Any activity you have described above is NOT herding, It is chasing a toy or another dog, but not herding.

It is great that R is showing impulse control when you tell him to lie down and wait. That is a positive.

Personally, I would not play this way with two dogs. They may have a good relationship that allows this type of play, but (a) one never knows when the chasing of the other dog might become fractious and (b) if R gets used to playing this way, what will he do when he is around other dogs with Frisbees? I do not allow any of my dogs to chase/take away the toy of another. I either play with each one by themselves, leash one up so they do not interfere with the other dog, or each dog has their own toy and they are not allowed to steal the toy of the other dog. Right now, I play with 3 dogs/3 toys. Each dog can only go after their own toy when I tell them to. I try to throw one toy for one dog while another dog is bringing their toy back. I try to avoid overlap, but it happens and luckily, I can tell one or two to wait.

Perhaps look into disc dog games. Are there any canine frisbee clubs around you? Just today, I was reading about UPdog competitions which sound like a lot of fun. There must be helpful online discussion/instruction on how to safely introduce a dog to frisbee games. (Safely, as in appropriate exercises for introducing a dog to frisbee so they don't overextend themselves and injure some muscle or ligament.)

[Rooster]

16 minutes ago, gcv-border said:

Personally, I would not play this way with two dogs. They may have a good relationship that allows this type of play, but (a) one never knows when the chasing of the other dog might become fractious and (b) if R gets used to playing this way, what will he do when he is around other dogs with Frisbees?

Thank you this is what I was worried about. We’ve done this maybe 5 times, so it is not part of our routine. We noticed the chasing and tried to create more structure around it

Thats why I was so excited when he finally ran after a stick and a ball! He’s come such a long way in three months so we’ll just keep encouraging his new interest in toys, and keep our shepherd’s frisbee time to himself.

[D'Elle]

I wouldn't play this way either with 2 dogs. I had one dog, a male, who lived to fetch and got another dog, female, who adored the male from day one. she would run close behind him and bug him when he was fetching, and/or try to get there first to the ball or fiisbee. When she did she would stand over the toy and not let the male have it. My male was not the type to start a fight, but was clearly annoyed (who wouldn't be?) so he and I put an end to it.

He trained the female not to run close behind him by turning and snarling at her, and she learned to back off, although she still chased him at a distance.  ( Chasing is not herding). I trained the female that she could stand over the toy for three seconds, no longer. This took a while. But once learned she knew that once she got to the toy I would call out "one, two, three" and if she didn't leave it by "3" she had to put herself into a time out on the porch for two to three throws.  And she developed her own pattern of how she ran after the male, and around this bush and then that bush and back again, in a nice pattern. (She wore a path into the yard doing this )    Both ended up being completely happy and satisfied and so was I. It was great fun to watch.

A word of warning:  don't throw sticks for the dog to fetch. I used to do that, but then found out that it is not uncommon for a dog to be injured that way, sometimes severely. You might want to look it up. I bet you will be like me and stop throwing sticks after you read about it.

[Rooster]

20 hours ago, D'Elle said:

A word of warning:  don't throw sticks for the dog to fetch. I used to do that, but then found out that it is not uncommon for a dog to be injured that way, sometimes severely. You might want to look it up. I bet you will be like me and stop throwing sticks after you read about it.

Thank you! I'll look into the fetching for sticks.

I'm hoping to get to the place you are with your dogs. It would be nice to have them both at the park enjoying themselves, and maybe over time as Rooster starts to enjoy toys more this will be a possibility! 

[Ranchhand]

As I read through your initial post, @Rooster, I wondered if perhaps it wasn't a growing disinterest in cattle or sheep, but rather, a rejection of the training methods or discipline he received in conjunction? You describe his behavior as chasing and not herding. Maybe that was the problem?

[Rooster]

24 minutes ago, Ranchhand said:

As I read through your initial post, @Rooster, I wondered if perhaps it wasn't a growing disinterest in cattle or sheep, but rather, a rejection of the training methods or discipline he received in conjunction? You describe his behavior as chasing and not herding. Maybe that was the problem?

It could have been, but it's hard to say. We found him abandoned in our campsite on the side of a canyon in southern Utah. He had a collar so we spoke with the rancher who happened to be the previous owner and he very briefly filled us in.(someone else had him for the last year, but failed to tell him that he lost his dog) "Uninterested" was the word he used for Rooster, and told us we should keep him. 

He was pretty skittish when we got him and he absolutely loves my husband and I, but sometimes he will voluntarily approach us and almost close his eyes and wince, like he's afraid he's going to be hit. He just recently started being somewhat comfortable with us touching his back and rear. It's been a discovery process for sure, not knowing how long he was solo in the desert, how he got there, his past life, what makes him uncomfortable, etc so everything feels like a trial with so many variables. Its been a heck of a three months. 

 

 

[gcv-border]

D'Elle brought up a good point. I found out the hard way about 20 years ago that fetching sticks can be dangerous for dogs. The BC I had at the time managed to grab a stick that was flipping end over end and it stabbed him far down his throat. He yelped when it happened, and I couldn't see anything wrong when I opened his mouth, but brought him to the vet. The vet had to anaesthetize him to treat him because the wound was so far down his throat.

There are fake sticks one can buy as substitutes. They are not pointy and made from somewhat flexible material. Much safer.

[Lawgirl]

Even the dog just picking up and running around carrying a stick can be dangerous.  A friend's Aussie Shepherd was running around carrying a stick, the end of which hit a tree, spun around in her mouth and badly scraped and scratched the inside of her mouth, and penetrated the inside of her cheek.  Not a serious injury, but lots of blood; she was coughing on it. And of course she needed antibiotics and was lucky not to need a stitch or two, or have had the stick go down her throat.

[Journey]

Chiming in on the stick issue. A soft palate will cure you from ever throwing another. Aside from that I also want to warn of the *dog parks* these are not ideal for any dog, much less a border collie with some instinct. Maybe you can find a nice place to walk them, trials and what not, and let them just enjoy being a dog.   

[Rooster]

11 minutes ago, Journey said:

 Aside from that I also want to warn of the *dog parks* these are not ideal for any dog, much less a border collie with some instinct. Maybe you can find a nice place to walk them, trials and what not, and let them just enjoy being a dog.   

Hi Journey, 

We rarely, if ever, go to the dog park. My Shepherd could care less to be there and Ive quickly found that my BC is in the same boat. By park, I mean an empty field by our house. We generally take our dogs into the backcountry-hiking, skiing, canyoneering etc. Otherwise when we have less time we do walks through local natural areas and in our neighborhood and play fetch in open fields.

[D'Elle]

On 2/27/2021 at 4:28 PM, Rooster said:

hoping to get to the place you are with your dogs. It would be nice to have them both at the park enjoying themselves, and maybe over time as Rooster starts to enjoy toys more this will be a possibility! 

It can definitely be done. But I have to tell you that it took two years with that dog until all I had to do was count and she would consistently walk away at "three". And when I said "time out!" she'd trot herself up onto the porch and wait until I released her. I know 2 years is a long time. The dog was not lacking in intelligence, but I was training her to do something she really badly did not want to do. Lots of patience on my part and 100% consistency.

Not saying it will take that long of course. Mileage will vary. But my philosophy is that however much time it takes, that time is going to go by anyway. At the end of that time you will either have a dog trained to do as you wish, or you will still have a problem. I always go for the former, and if I feel confident in my method I don't give up or think it's not working no matter how long it takes.  People I help with training their dogs often say to me that a method doesn't work with that dog. Usually it's simply a matter of the person not continuing with it long enough. 

Sadly, I no longer have those dogs, as they died of old age at the ages of 16 and 17. They also loved to go into the back country with me and were wonderful travelling/ hiking and camping dogs. Miss them every day.

 

[Rooster]

21 minutes ago, D'Elle said:

It can definitely be done. But I have to tell you that it took two years with that dog until all I had to do was count and she would consistently walk away at "three". And when I said "time out!" she'd trot herself up onto the porch and wait until I released her. I know 2 years is a long time. The dog was not lacking in intelligence, but I was training her to do something she really badly did not want to do. Lots of patience on my part and 100% consistency.

Not saying it will take that long of course. Mileage will vary. But my philosophy is that however much time it takes, that time is going to go by anyway. At the end of that time you will either have a dog trained to do as you wish, or you will still have a problem. I always go for the former, and if I feel confident in my method I don't give up or think it's not working no matter how long it takes.  People I help with training their dogs often say to me that a method doesn't work with that dog. Usually it's simply a matter of the person not continuing with it long enough. 

Sadly, I no longer have those dogs, as they died of old age at the ages of 16 and 17. They also loved to go into the back country with me and were wonderful travelling/ hiking and camping dogs. Miss them every day.

 

Thanks for the inspiration D'Elle! The progress we've made in three months blows me away, so even looking a year out shows me that there are endless possibilities. Every dog is so different, and rescues are in a category of their own. Rooster has completely stolen my heart, Ive never had this sort of connection with another dog before, though my lab came close.

It's amazing to me that your dogs lived to be 16 and 17, that's quite a feat. It sounds like you gave them a great life, backcountry travel with dogs is so special.