breeding a neutered dog

[sea4th]

I came home from work today to a lengthy message on my answering machine from a woman, pretty emotional and desperate to get her male border collie bred and this woman was wondering if I had a bitch available to breed to her dog.

 

The problem is, her male was neutered last week. It seems that about 10 days ago, her dog dug out from under the fence and took off. She searched and searched, and I'm not clear on this, but it turns out that someone picked up her dog and took it to a vet, who promptly neutered him. This vet happened to be her own vet who said it was policy to neuter strays, but this dog had tags on, & no effort was made to contact the owner. This woman had planned to get some pups from this dog someday.

 

According to her, it has to be done NOW, IMMEDIATELY. She was told by another vet that there is usually some viable sperm for 30 days after a male is neutered. I have never heard of this. She called me yesterday too & I returned her call from work, and she is insistent, based on what this vet told her, that it can be done. I told her that the hormones linger in the system for months, but the sperm producing part is PFFFT!! gone.

 

Dr. "cooled & frozen semen", the AI specialist in these parts told her no, too late. Some country vet told her it could be done.

 

She'll be calling me back tonight.

 

Vicki

[toney]

Theoretically, a dog could have a few viable sperm cells left in the spermatic cord and the hormone level could be high enough to allow him to breed, but it's theoretical and would only be theoretical for a short period of time. Not ten days, though. Asked my vet about it because it was such an unusual post. Sounds like she's out of luck, though.

[sea4th]

The woman called back last night & was upset, but not quite so emotional. Her reason for breeding this dog was because he was so wonderful, blah, blah, blah.

 

It wasn't a situation to discuss pet overpopulation problems, why pets should be altered, etc. I was glad it happened though, just not the way it happened.

 

I killed any hope of hers to collect viable sperm. I told her that dogs rarely reproduce themselves when bred anyway, and the closest she could get to reproducing the little guy would be to go back to his sire and dam and even then she'd be dealing with a different individual. I told her the plus side is that he'll never have prostate problems, and the very fact that he wasn't dead by the side of the road somewhere should be something she could be greatful for.

 

So the chapter ends on one of my stranger encounters.

 

Vicki

[DeltaBluez Tess]

>>She searched and searched, and I'm not clear on this, but it turns out that someone picked up her dog and took it to a vet, who promptly neutered him. This vet happened to be her own vet who said it was policy to neuter strays, but this dog had tags on, & no effort was made to contact the owner.<<

 

I have a question. If the vet knew the dog and the dog had tags and the person who brought the dog in was NOT the owner and the vet fixed the dog, would the vet be liable? I can maybe see the owner going after the vet for doing this procedure as well as the person who picked up the dog?

 

Just curious?

 

Diane

[sea4th]

The owner's first inclination was to sue, which she says she is not going to do now. In our conversation, she told me that they tried to get a hold of her for 2 days but her line was busy. She also said it's a big clinic that works in conjuction with a shelter, but I don't think that absolves them from liability. (I'm paraphrasing what she told me). She was told it's their policy to neuter strays, but, IMO, if a dog is picked up with tags on, it's not a stray, and I would say it is on the vet's practice to go that extra mile to track the owner, especially when the rabies tag bore the name of their own practice.

 

(The daughter of a friend who volunteers there recognized the dog and called her, not the act of the clinic itself).

 

I would be livid (she was). I would also foresee a problem finding an attorney (at least around here) to take on a case like this, but yes, as it was told to me, it sure sounds like the practice would be liable.

 

Vicki

[Guest totallyterry2003]

It certainly makes you wonder what kind of relationship that the woman had with her vet. I cannot imagine any vet that I ever went to neutering one of my animals and not even calling me to tell me that he had located it.

 

Also most vets are very conscious of their liabilities and would not put themselves knowingly in a risk situation.

 

Of course, we have only heard one side of the story and that was second hand information;

[Guest totallyterry2003]

Vicki,

 

Our post crossed paths,

 

I posted before you gave additional information.

[Barb Scott]

>I have a question. If the vet knew the dog and >the dog had tags and the person who brought the >dog in was NOT the owner and the vet fixed the >dog, would the vet be liable? I can maybe see >the owner going after the vet for doing this >procedure as well as the person who picked up >the dog?

 

Our Vet didn't even want to neuter our dog when I brought him in...I had to assure the vet that Russ knew about it and would be the one to pick him up after surgery!

Barb S

[sea4th]

In the woman's defense, she didn't sound like an irrational nut case, although she was emotional in the message she left on my answering machine. But I'm taking all this with a grain of salt. We'll probably never know the other side's story, & it really seems odd that the vet clinic would not have gone to the trouble of tracking one of their clients. Of course, stranger things have happened. I just thought the original reason for the phone call was one for the books.

 

Oh well. And yes, Terry, it does make you wonder about the woman's relationship with her vet.

 

Vicki

[nancy]

But the vet did try to get in touch with her:

 

"In our conversation, she told me that they tried to get a hold of her for 2 days but her line was busy."

 

Who knows about their history with that woman. I'd love to get the vet's full story.

 

And I can't help but be thankful that a backyard breeder has been thwarted.

 

My dog is wonderful, too. But part of her wonderfulness is that she is spayed. She is a pet and has shown no herding ability other than getting some muscovies wherever she wanted - and putting all mallards and Canada geese into the pond. Which does not seem to me to indicate potential improvement of the breed.

 

Had I the time an resources to try her on sheep, she might turn out to be outstanding. But I'll take the chance of not letting her improve the breed rather than take the chance of her producing puppies for whom I can't find appropriate pet homes. There are far too many of that quality of pup already available.

[Kyrasmom]

If the dog is an escape artist it's probably best that he was neutered even though there is something very fishy about this whole story. Searching for ten days means I at the very least would have contacted my vet and every animal associated organization within miles of my home.

 

Who really knows, but all in all the important thing is that she was reunited with her dog.

 

Maria

[sea4th]

Nancy writes:

 

"And I can't help but be thankful that a backyard breeder has been thwarted"

 

 

Amen to that.

 

Vicki

[kajarrel]

The phone may have been busy but there are other ways to contact people . . . remember the good old U.S. mail? I would be furious if this happened to me/my dog. Why the hurry to neuter a dog with tags and a known owner ("promptly")? And what RIGHT did they have to do this? To my knowledge, we don't have laws in this country regarding mandatory spaying of pets - this is still the owner's decision.

 

I'm for spaying and abhor indicrimate breeding, but I am also concerned when people neuter dogs without owner consent or at least some due process (remember, this dog was in a fenced-in yard, had tags and went to a vet at least one time). This sounds like a major bungle to me . . .

 

An additional thought - it might reflect the *vet's* relationship with the owner . . .

 

Kim

[diane allen]

What a disturbing story. Like others, I'd sure be interested in "the other side of the story."

Our local animal control officers pick up "loose" dogs all the time. They do make a significant effort to locate the owner, which is sometimes difficult due to our heavy tourist volume. The "pound" (it is NOT a shelter!) is only required to keep an animal three days before it is euthanized. I can't imagine them euthanizing a "local" animal with tags even after three days, let alone neutering him/her.

 

We've heard (though I haven't confirmed) that is now the "law" that dogs and cats must be neutered before being released from the pound, to a NEW owner/adoptor. And also something like, if an animal has been picked up three times, it must be neutered before being released to the owner.

 

Agreed that its probably just as well, but how anguishing for the owner.

 

diane

[Coloradogirl]

There is always 2 sides to the story. Wonder for sure what the other side of the story is. My 2, my sisters 2 and the cat all get spayed and neutered Friday May 2nd. I am very excited, I sure hope it makes a difference in the way my male dog acts. Time will tell!!

[SoloRiver]

I too am glad that a potential BYB was thwarted. On the other hand, I would be annoyed if say, Fly was lost only for a couple of days and spayed within that time. I do not plan to breed her, but I would rather not have decisions regarding surgery on my dogs being made by strangers.

 

Regarding neutering and androgen effects: apparently the hormones do not linger all that long in the system. There is an androgen drop within six hours of castration, and the majority of hormone decrease is complete within 72 hours.* Hormone-mediated, studdish behavior probably sticks around because it has become learned and ingrained, which may be why it seems like it takes months for hormone levels to decrease. The gonads aren't the only thing in the body that produce androgens, so a neutered dog is never totally free of testosterone either.

 

*Hopkins et al. 1976 Castration of adult male dogs: effects on roaming, aggression, urine spraying, and mounting. JAVMA 168:1108-1110. Cited in Overall 1997.

[dot me not]

I haven't had the experience with dogs, but I do have a friend that gelded her horse then suddenly decided that she wanted a foal from him. (kinda weird thinking) They bred her mare approx 2 weeks after he was gelded and she did deliver a foal the next year. Any time we geld a horse here Fran (my vet) always reminds us to keep him away from open mares for at least 30 days because they are still fertile for a time. I just don't know if horses and dogs are the same or similar.