GentleLake Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 Not border collie specific but disturbing news: http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/breaking-news-kc-survey-reveals.html?m=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 Totally expected with limited gene pools. I would have liked to see a survey of % failure to thrive in pups, lactation in females, fertility measures in both females and males, immunological status - all of these are known to deteriorate in a gene pool with High COIs. What I find VERY interesting is that despite the improved health care and nutrition in the past 10 years, that the average lifespan has decreased. Even more damning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 Well said, GCV-Border. Wanna bet this, too, will be blamed on vaccines and kibble? I doubt the vaccination rates have risen so drastically in that short a space of time. It reminds me of those breeders who will send a dog home with a particular supplement and a particular food that they will recommend- so if any problems crop up the breeder can decide they must not have appropriately adhered to the regimen. The more cases of cancer or whatever crop up, the more the breeder is reinforced in the idea that it's not their breeding, it's the irresponsible owners. So they don't have any reason to change their breeding practices. Some kind of excuse like that will be used as a response to this. 11 years for a labrador is atrocious. I mean, mine is nearly 14 (?ish) and that's still way too short. It's not like she's particularly well-bred either, quite the opposite. Anyone remember that survey that found that there was no difference in health problems in Scotties between show-bred, pet-store, and byb dogs? Now, not saying that those results must be applicable across all breeds. But if this is what we are seeing with the responsible breeders that will take the trouble to answer this kind of survey, it suggests at least that the system is not going to produce healthier dogs, is not geared towards producing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 Well said, GCV-Border. Wanna bet this, too, will be blamed on vaccines and kibble? Yep, read the comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 Simultaneously chagrined at not having read the comments before posting, and somewhat smug at being shown to be right. Edit: I mean, chagrin is winning, but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 Yes, vaccines and kibble were mentioned, but I wouldn't say it was the general theme of the comments or even very widespread. Not counting the rebuttals to those claims, they were 3 of a current total of 43 comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 Yes, vaccines and kibble were mentioned, but I wouldn't say it was the general theme of the comments or even very widespread. Not counting the rebuttals to those claims, they were 3 of a current total of 43 comments. ?? And? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 Simultaneously chagrined at not having read the comments before posting, and somewhat smug at being shown to be right. Edit: I mean, chagrin is winning, but... Its totally winning. Just in case you thought the eyeroll smilie was meant for you, it was not, it was my reaction to the comments about food and vaccines. I was expecting them too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herdcentral Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 It would be interesting to compare to survey done of non KC registered dogs. I go to the local dog walking park when I am in the city and everything looks obese to me. The limited genetic pool in some breeds however is disturbing and I can well see the case for judicious out-crossing to similar breeds. I did read a study done by Helen King who inbred rats for 40 generations. Her rats were better than average but this can only be achieved by using good foundation stock and by rigorous selection criteria by culling anything bad, and good care. It is commonly used in the livestock industry but then ruthlessly culling puppies doesn't sit as easily as with rats and livestock. A friend of mine who is a specialist vet says she sees so much cancer in dogs right across the board. A recent trial found you could cut cancer rates in dogs by a whopping amount if you fed orange coloured vegetables and even more with green leafy veg added to their diet on a regular basis. I am now doing this for my dogs. There are certainly a lot of factors involved but I wouldn't disagree that poor breeding practices contribute quite a lot particularly to some breeds that have been compromised already by silly fashion which often equates to poor selection criteria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 According to the Purina study, being overweight can cut a dog's lifespan by about 2 yrs. I heard one vet say that the overweight dogs weren't obese but rather a 6-7 on the Purina scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemsMom Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 ^^^ When my German Shepherd was a puppy I asked my vet what I could do to help keep him from having issues with his hips (I had the vet x-ray his hips and all was good but I was still worried). She told me the best thing was to not let him get overweight and said she would only have half of her practice if people would keep their pets at a healthy weight. A number of years ago I thought the AKC was the gold standard for a well bred dog I thought that all dogs were bred with health and temperament in mind. Now I know better and am saddened at what conformation breeders (and breed clubs and the AKC) are doing to man's best friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 Not arguing the KC case but the results are based on a tiny self selected sample so should be trated with caution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 Small and biased sampling is always a concern with any voluntary project (survey, health study, etc) and will likely skew the results away from a true characterization of the overall population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aschlemm Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 I'd buy the smaller gene pool theory but I don't think that is the total picture as mixed breeds don't seem to live any longer either. I wish someone would do a study and compile information from vet clinics inactive files as far as longevity studies go. We keep records for 7 years after a pet has passed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba Posted February 28, 2016 Report Share Posted February 28, 2016 The thing is what are they mixes of? I can't imagine a bulldog mix or a great dane mix is going to do as well as a mix of 57 different terriers. And you also have issues of people breeding F2 (or whatever) crosses that are inbred. So they outcrossed the first generation, and then didn't work hard enough to seek a labradoodle (or whatever) that also wasn't related to mix to their labradoodle. The insurance companies charge consistently less for a mixed-breed than a purebred. Wonder if there are studies on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 29, 2016 Report Share Posted February 29, 2016 Ironically the KC's own insurance scheme has lower premiums for crosses, while still insisting on the health of their own brand dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted February 29, 2016 Report Share Posted February 29, 2016 Actuaries deal with real data, while the KC persists on living in its own bubble. Not even the KC perceptions can override their insurance carriers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herdcentral Posted February 29, 2016 Report Share Posted February 29, 2016 I think with insurance certain dog breeds are definitely penalised. However my insurance company doesn't ask me to provide papers as to their pedigrees, they just ask for the breed of dog. Fortunately my breeds are obviously considered lower risk but there is no difference in premiums between ANKC registered and working bred versions of the same breed as I have had both. I know quite a few poorly bred crossbreeds that have had major issues. I doubt they would distinguish between a working bred GSD, a showbred, or a GSD x, especially if the cross is with another high risk breed like a Rottie. So I dont know how they work it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted March 1, 2016 Report Share Posted March 1, 2016 Dear Doggers, Insurance companies aren't alone penalizing dogs deliberately or carelessly bred to have unhealthy genetics. http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/traveling-with-us/special-travel-needs/pets/pet-requirements-restrictions.html Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crawford Dogs Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 Ironically the KC's own insurance scheme has lower premiums for crosses, while still insisting on the health of their own brand dogs. Ha haa!! I can't stop laughing. You've made my day! I would love to see similar studies done in ABCA border collies, it'd be nice to see data collected and revisited every decade or so. Not for any particular reason except to catch trends and it'd be interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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