NY Times article on canine nutrition

[gcv-border]

A good introduction to nutrition for the canine athlete for lay people. I am not referring to the board members here as lay people, but did appreciate the clear and simple information about canine nutrition - and the fact that the article appeared in the NYT, I hope that the information is disseminated more widely.

 

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/08/20/the-science-behind-your-dogs-special-exercise-needs/

[GentleLake]

Interesting to note that he says: "Dogs burn fat as their primary endurance fuel, and carbohydrates are not very important for them."

 

And: "Dogs don’t need carbohydrates..."

 

I've pointed this out here before and have been contradicted.

 

I disagree with him that it's too difficult for people to provide adequate nutrition in home made raw food diets. My dog who just died at a couple moths short of 18 years old is only one example that would suggest otherwise. And food borne illness is no greater than handling meat products intended for human consumption, though I'd argue that standards are far too lax in that regard. But basic cleaning of food prep areas would be the same.

[Laurae]

 

 

I disagree with him that it's too difficult for people to provide adequate nutrition in home made raw food diets. My dog who just died at a couple moths short of 18 years old is only one example that would suggest otherwise. And food borne illness is no greater than handling meat products intended for human consumption, though I'd argue that standards are far too lax in that regard. But basic cleaning of food prep areas would be the same.

 

My 15-year-old 100% raw-fed dog is another example (as is my 11-year-old, as well as my three younger dogs).

[GentleLake]

I've got 2 younger dogs who are doing great on raw as well. Vet always remarks about the ~10 year old's teeth, which have never been cleaned or even brushed, as well as his robust good health.

[Tommy Coyote]

Yes, but, GentleLake, not many people know enough about canine nutrition to feed their dogs raw. Remember the person who came on this board and was feeding her dogs nothing but raw chickens?

 

And I don't think the average dog owner is really motivated enough to find out how to feed raw the right way. Most of my customers are doing good just to throw some kibble in a bowl. They don't even check to see if the kibble is any good. They just go by the pretty picture on the bag and the cost.

[GentleLake]

The thing is, feeding raw isn't rocket science, Tommy. You don't have to have a degree in nutrition to feed yourself and your family smartly, nor do you need one in canine nutrition to feed your dog well. Yes, you do need to do a little research and know how to go about it. But prey model raw is really pretty simple and is based on some pretty straightforward, easy to follow guidelines.

 

As far as people who kill or seriously compromise their dogs' health by just feeding raw chicken breasts without doing a minimum of research, well all I can say is there's no cure for stupid.

 

I've said before and I'll say it again. I'm not dissing people who choose not to feed raw, and I'm not on a campaign to convert people who aren't interested. Your dog; your choice.

 

But it really bugs the crap out of me to keep hearing the same old lame (and unsupported) scare tactics against it that pretty much originate with and are perpetuated by corporations who mass market kibble.

[Liz P]

The AVERAGE pet owner really isn't prepared to balance their dog's diet.

 

I've had several excellent conversations with that nutritionist on canine athletes.

[GentleLake]

Liz P wrote: The AVERAGE pet owner really isn't prepared to balance their dog's diet.

 

Maybe that's true, but in my experience most vets aren't helping the situation. If they were so inclined, they could ask an owner interested in raw feeding to set up an appointment for the sole purpose of giving them basic feeding guidelines and referring them to some good sources to consult.

 

A couple years ago I had a visit with a vet who claimed to support raw feeding. He had some concerns about micronutrients (recommending a supplement he sells), we had a short discussion about how I feed and he said he was satisfied.

 

As I was checking out, a couple went into the exam room with their new puppy and the door was left open. They asked him about feeding the pup. He recommended a brand of kibble he sells, told them under no circumstances should they feed any kind of bones, either cooked or raw, and no "people food." This was less than 5 minutes after we'd been discussing my dogs' raw diet, which he said was fine.

 

Granted he may have understood that I'm not the average dog owner, and for all I know he may have had a history with the other clients, but it sure sounded to me like he was talking out of both sides of his butt.

 

I lost a lot of respect for him that day.

[mbc1963]

Human health side note, but interesting:

 

I was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes in December. Family history, overweight - I was a prime candidate. A quick Internet search brought me to several diabetes forums where members spoke about a low carb/high fat diet to manage blood sugar. Since the American medical establishment wasn't giving me much help (don't get me started!), I decided to try the recommendations of people with long experience. Gave up the starchy carbs - rice, potatoes, bread, cereal - and eat mostly meat, veggies, nuts, cheese, etc.. Put bacon back in my life.

 

Over seven months I've dropped almost 50 pounds without feeling hungry, and my blood sugar numbers are in the normal range. My biggest surprise: the cholesterol and triglyceride numbers are much better, despite my greatly increasing my fat intake (olive oil, butter, nuts, cream, etc.).

 

I'm now aghast to think that most dog foods are corn-based. I'm thinking huge amounts of carbs aren't really necessary or healthy for we omnivorous humans, let alone our carnivorous friends.

[juliepoudrier]

I have fed raw diets and kibble diets. What bothers me most about these discussions, aside from the obvious that handling raw meat isn't going to kill anyone if they're doing it sensibly, is the argument that one's dogs live long or don't have serious health issues *because* they are on a raw diet. You know, the correlation vs. causation thing. All of my dogs have lived to at least 15, most make it to 16 or nearly so, and one was just a few weeks shy of 17. And they are largely kibble fed.

 

So, please, if one wants to argue the merits of one diet over another, please choose some real data to back it up. I don't think longevity is the best one to base an argument on.

 

And I agree with those who think that the general public doesn't really think (or want to think) about canine (or feline, reptilian, etc.) nutrition. They want to be able to put down some food and go. Those folks aren't going to educate themselves about nutrition, any more than the many people who don't educate themselves about human nutrition.

 

Most of the dog owners I know who are really involved with their dogs and are into some form of work or competition do pay attention to what they feed (raw or kibble or other) and think hard about the health consequences of their choices.

 

J.

[Tommy Coyote]

I wish there were some really good studies that we could look at. Are there any being done on long term raw vs. long term other kibble types of diets. Are there any studies going on at any of the university vet schools?

 

I remember one post about wolves that were fed raw and then were fed kibble (or commercial food) and they were healthier on the commercial food.

 

It's so confusing at this point. I don't feed raw but I do try to feed the best kibble that I can afford and it's grain free. All the dogs have tons of energy and are really healthy.

[Maralynn]

Eukanuba has recently been advertising a study they did featuring Labradors well into their teens (15 - 17 IIRC). Fed Eukanuba kibble...

 

That said, I've also been able to get my blood sugar issues under control through diet. I much the same way that Mary does. And I got a dog's allergy issues under control with a raw diet. My current ones are on kibble with some raw.

[GentleLake]

I'm now aghast to think that most dog foods are corn-based. I'm thinking huge amounts of carbs aren't really necessary or healthy for we omnivorous humans, let alone our carnivorous friends.

 

And diabetes is on the rise in both dogs and cats as well as for humans.

 

And I agree with those who think that the general public doesn't really think (or want to think) about canine (or feline, reptilian, etc.) nutrition. They want to be able to put down some food and go. Those folks aren't going to educate themselves about nutrition, any more than the many people who don't educate themselves about human nutrition.

 

Don't you think that a lot of that has been conditioning as well as the convenience factor? People have been inculcated by advertizing and vets who tell them this processed food is superior and then actually tell them that unprocessed food is dangerous and that we can't handle the nutrition aspect.

 

The convenience factor has played a huge part in the decline of the standard American diet, too. But at least we don't have the manufacturers and our physicians trying to convince us that it's better for us than unprocessed foods.

 

And I completely agree that longevity isn't proof of anything. I mentioned Tilly's age not because she was old, but because she was old and healthy. The vets were amazed right up until she died that all her tests showed all her organs were functioning normally. She just wore out because of age.

 

OTOH, I had a dog who was raw fed from the age of 6 weeks who died when she was just 3 years and 3 weeks old.

 

The problem with longevity, in both humans and pets, is that we're living longer because of medical advancement, but we're living with many more chronic illnesses and from earlier ages. Using diabetes as an example again, not only is it epidemic, but the age of onset is becoming lower and lower. This isn't exactly a win-win in my mind.

[GentleLake]

I wish there were some really good studies that we could look at. Are there any being done on long term raw vs. long term other kibble types of diets. Are there any studies going on at any of the university vet schools?

 

This type of study is funded by the people who'll benefit from it, and that's been pet food manufacturers. They're not going to fund a study on raw feeding. With human heath there might be some gov't funding, but that ain't gonna happen for pets. So who's going to pay for a long term raw feeding trial for dogs & cats? There are some manufacturers starting to get into the pre-made raw food biz, but so far they're too small to do it. And there's no financial support at all behind people like me who put together their own.

 

It's going to take a donation driven effort like the Rabies Challenge Fund, which is taking on the scientifically baseless assumption that rabies vaccines need to be "boosted" every 3 years, for a study like this to happen. AFAIK there's been no one willing to take this on for raw feeding. For a university to do it, there'd have to be at least one vet or nutritional researcher who wanted to design and organize a study and then campaign for funding like the Rabies Challenge Fund does. It's a massive undertaking that would span many years before we'd have any real validation.

[Liz P]

Remember though that in the USA, most pets and humans are sedentary. If you want to make comparisons, do apples to apples and not apples to oranges. Ex: compare canine athletes to human athletes and pet dogs to people who work office jobs and don't exercise regulalrly. Even so, remember the differences in physiology, as the article pointed out.

 

I suspect board members would be shocked by the responses on our history forms if they could read them. The number one dog food listed? Beneful. The commercials tell them it has real meat and veges, plus the bag has pictures of pretty vegetables, so people buy it. And yes, many think of corn as a vege, not a grain. And yes, I have asked people why they buy it; because the commercials tell them it's good and the bag has pictures of real looking food on it.

[waffles]

Remember though that in the USA, most pets and humans are sedentary. If you want to make comparisons, do apples to apples and not apples to oranges. Ex: compare canine athletes to human athletes and pet dogs to people who work office jobs and don't exercise regulalrly. Even so, remember the differences in physiology, as the article pointed out.

To add to that thought, you can hardly compare a 220lb enormous, wrinkled covered Mastiff to a working bred collie. Or a 1 1/2 lb "teacup" Yorkie to a Great Dane. We all know more than diet plays a role in how long an animal lives. If a food study only used Labs or Beagles, is it really good to compare that to another totally different breed? Some dogs are just so different physically, before you even take into account their daily activity, that food studies just would be hard to do unless it involved a lot of dogs. Again, that would take a lot of money and time.

[Liz P]

There are some breed differences, but it's harder than you might think to look at a dog and guess at them. For example, a few breeds (Mini Schnauzers and Shelties) have problems with fat metabolism and levels in their blood. Rotties and Border Collies are prone to type 1 diabetes.

 

If a mastiff was athletic, and yes they can be quite athletic for their size, they would have the nutritional demands of a canine athlete. The exact requirements would depend on what they are competing in (endurance type events vs strength, sprint, etc). There are some giat breed dogs who compete in weight pull and other activities that keep them fit. It is being overweight or having serious orthopedic problems plus temperature that keeps most of them sedentary and sluggish.

 

A teacup yorkie could actually keep up with a jogging human and be extremely fit. Some people really do jog with their toy breed dog. In that case, it would need a different diet than most pets.

 

I've met a few fit and trim, extremely athletic pugs that ran agility. They would have the same requirements as a Border Collie competing in the sport.

 

But yes, longevity is controlled more by genetics than many realize. Just look at breed averages. Feeding a raw diet to a Mastiff will never guarantee them an 18 year lifespan.

[waffles]

 

But yes, longevity is controlled more by genetics than many realize. Just look at breed averages. Feeding a raw diet to a Mastiff will never guarantee them an 18 year lifespan.

This is exactly what I was trying to get at. So having science behind the food you feed isn't so impressive to me. I always say you eat and feed your kids the diet that makes sense to you based on your culture, lifestyle and budget. So same for your pets, whatever food that may be.

[Liz P]

But if you know that Border Collies live an average of about 13 years and you did a study showing that raw fed Border Collies live an average of 11 years vs kibble fed that live an average of 14 years, that data could be meaningful.

 

The study cited that showed lean Labs lived longer than slightly overweight Labs has a great deal of meaning. They control for everything except calories.

[Chan]

I think if you have been feeding raw for a long time then it probably was fairly simple when you started and continues to seem like a "no brainer" to you.

 

I have looked into it several times. I'm a fairly intelligent person I think , I have a BS in Nursing. But, I find it incredibly daunting. One book I have says basically feed a chicken quarter and occasionally something else and all will be well. Another balances protein and fat and minerals - one "recipe" calls for beef hearts (not sure where to locate those, certainly not in the stores where I live), a different book has a vegetable concoction, a meat concoction and then a myriad of vitamins and minerals that you buy to mix your own supplement to add to make everything complete. I start reading and researching and then do nothing. Wait a year or two and repeat

 

So I'd be interested to hear what book/s long term raw feeders would suggest to someone wanting to get started. Gentle Lake, Laurae??

 

It does seem ridiculous that I managed to feed and raise 3 boys with much less agonizing over what I fed them than my dogs

 

Thanks,

 

Chandra

[waffles]

No books needed for what I feed. I think Gentlelake feeds similar to the way I do so she can chime in with more details. No recipes, mixing, cooking for me. I don't weigh anymore but sometimes will just to see and am usually spot on. I feed a variety of meat (for those beef hearts and pork hearts, I get mine at a local restaurant wholesaler that does cash/carry) along with organs and bone-in meat. Only supplement is fish oil. I grab something out of the freezer and place it in the sink or the fridge if it's for the next day to defrost. I hand it to him along with popping an organ "ice cube" out of the tray a few times per week.

 

I know someone who buys organic ground lamb ($$) and cooks a whole concoction of ingredients together for their dogs, both dogs are fat too! I still think the worst thing as far as pet diets go is overweight animals and sedentary lifestyles, regardless of what is fed.

[simba]

As often happens I completely agree with JuliePoudrier. I am just annoyed you posted first because now I feel I've nothing to say!

 

Don't you think that a lot of that has been conditioning as well as the convenience factor? People have been inculcated by advertizing and vets who tell them this processed food is superior and then actually tell them that unprocessed food is dangerous and that we can't handle the nutrition aspect.

I know a lot of people who are older and still feed the way they did before the pet-food thing became popular where they lived. They don't seem any less likely to just 'put down some food and go' than people who feed kibble. There would certainly be no idea of balancing the diet, not feeding cooked chicken bones, looking at the nutritional needs etc and the dogs are usually fat. One dog got fed almost entirely on bread and cake, more usual was potatoes, veg scraps, meat, bread. It's a small sample size though, self-selected of people who just do what they always did (and thus probably not likely in the first place to research and change stuff).

 

Well said Waffles- I do not really understand people who spend a lot of time and effort on the dog's food, or doing things like going organic and feeding supplements and such that don't actually have a lot of evidence behind them- and yet don't think about keeping the dog's weight down. This is when it's something we KNOW will help the dog be healthier and live longer, probably one of the most important things you can do for that aside from regular exercise and not letting them onto a highway every evening.

 

Edit: to clarify, this isn't a problem with people spending a lot of time and effort on their dog's food per se- just on people who make their dog less healthy by not bothering to keep them at the right weight or learn what that looks like, while doing so.

[Cass C]

In my area most grocery stores with a butcher can special order beef hearts you just have to ask. You can even call and ask local grocery stores if they can order you some (if that's what you want to feed.)

 

I feed a mix of raw and kibble. My dogs get raw beef knuckles for chewing, for dinner they get raw green tripe, and a frozen premade raw food made locally. Occasionally they also get raw chicken or beef as a treat. In the mornings they eat merrick kibble; occasionally with honest kitchen (dehydrated raw) food mixed In on the days they refuse to eat and I have to go to work.

[Maralynn]

When I fed raw it was pretty straightforward. Lots of variety - beef, chicken, pork, sardines, mackerel, turkey, lamb wherein the usual rotation. I made it simple for me by mixing hamburger with eggs and mackerel. Then I'd throw it in a sandwich baggie with some organ meat (once again, it varied) with a bony piece. Freeze the baggies and pull out one a day to feed. I did this for 5-6 years with one dog.

[urge to herd]

I'm compelled to pull out my story about Shoshone and raw diets. Those of you who have read it already can skip this one.

 

Shonie had some sort of mysterious skin condition that made her itch, itch, itch. One of the things I tried was a raw diet, following the Volhard recommendations. They were wildly popular in those days, don't hear so much about them any more.

 

Anyway, raw foods with various supplements for about 2 and a half, maybe 3 months. Her coat got dull, she lost weight, she acted dull and listless. I kept getting advice to add this or have her tested for that. My dog savvy friends said she didn't look well. Oh, and I was feeding her almost 3 times the amount recommended for a dog her size, hoping to get some weight back on her.

 

I finally put her back on kibble, can't remember what brand, but a common one. Within a week or so she had gained a couple pounds, her coat was looking better, and she was her old quirky self.

 

Shoshone lived to about 15. Her itchies did the best on a Natural Balance, (I think) vegetarian diet, of all things.

 

Go figure.

 

Ruth and Gibbs