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Hi there,


I wasn't sure where to post this, so I'm hoping this is the right section.


I'm doing a project in college in regards to why the AKC is bad and ruining some dog breeds, in particular any working breed like Border Collies and German Shepherd. I'm a little stuck in my project due to citation sources... it's all stuff I know already (having learned from this forum over the years as well as some documentaries and articles), but I need to prove that it's true. I figured you guys would be the best bet to go to for this, so here I am.


I apologize if it sounds like I'm asking you to do my project for me. I just can't find any sources.


1) I'm trying to illustrate the whole hind rear over exaggerated angulation, but the only source I could find was via Leerburg.com from someone named Jean Mueller. Any info on whether he/she is a credible source?


2) I'm told from many people English and French Bulldogs can't copulate or give birth through natural means, and a lot of people seem to say this when you google for it... but I can't find a source that says so.


3) Lastly, I'm trying to show the inflation of prices for a dog due to the AKC's registration paper. I know most work-bred BCs are sold via word of mouth and don't usually have websites for it, but could someone cite some prices for these kind of pups? I can easily find ones that are $1,000+ in price that are AKC-bred, so that isn't a problem.




Again, thank you all very much and I apologize in advance.

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AKC was founded by wealthy people who wanted bragging rights as to whose dog was best. It takes little effort to produce dogs for conformation. They got entrenched in the idea that a dog LOOKED a certain way and away from the way a dog worked/acted.

Obedience was added some years later to give people with poorer quality dogs a place to enjoy doing something with their dogs and added to the financial end of the 'dog game.' Other sports came along and the AKC started offering them in order to boost revenues.

Somewhere along the line the sport of herding' became more popular and the people (now more working class people than upper crust). People wanted another venue where they could brag "my dog is better than your dog" and AKC started it's herding program. Unfortunately the emphasis was on titles, not on quality of work, nor on improving the breed. As one AKC big shot said, the 'improving of the breed was the realm of the conformation ring, not elsewhere.


In addition to the AKC herding program being a poor test of a dog's working ability, AKC's selection of judges has increasingly lower standards for those who judge these events. Whereas a judge for Border Collie trials should know livestock behavior and how the dog and stock interact as to cause and affect, AKC judges simply have to have titled 2 dogs and done some paperwork.


AKC's judges education program is a joke!

Attend a seminar and you will see the AKC Rep essentially recite the rule book, offer a 'test' on the rules and then have the participants score their own tests before handing them in. There is no required effort to actually educate judges, no means to insure that judges are even in the same score range when judging dogs. I recently overheard one judge complain to the Rep they he had no idea how to judge, no idea where to take points off nor how many points to take off. this resulted in huge differences in this judge scoring from one day to the next. and I am sure this is not a lone case. thing is this person is still a judge and was not one of the worse they have.


Whenever a program has officials who fail in their job, the program is a failure.


For AKC , the failure is in ensuring health and temperament in the breeds as well as lack of working ability as a means to ensure the breed remains true to what it's originators envisioned.

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As for the price of dogs, I think one reason for a price increase is more AKC breeders (show dogs here) do more health testing and that can raise the price of a litter considerably. Even within the working Border Collies, pups which are themselves health tested or at least have parents health tested cost more than those not tested.


I am not seeing the idea that AKC=quality like it did 20+ years ago

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If you have a veterinary school associated with your college, I would suggest going there and looking at the veterinary journals. You aren't likely to find the health data you want in other sources. AKC breeders often seem to try to deny and cover up the incidence of problems like c sections. The following is a list of some that we see in breeds taken to the extreme by the show ring.


brachycephalic airway syndrome

collapsing tracheas

cauda equina syndrome

cesarean sections

chondrodysplasia and intervertebral disc disease

familial shar-pei fever

ectropion of the eyelids

excessive skin folds


Try John Burchard as a source who might be able to direct you to the sorts of studies you need on less tangible data (working ability, functional structure). He is an excellent resource on AKC vs working bred dogs.


See if you can track down any working Malinois breeders. They might be able to help you find information on the dumbing down of the working tests for GSDs since they physically could no longer do them. The Mal breeders have done a better job of maintaining functional structure and could be a good place to go for this information.


The price of Border Collies was kept down because of the market. Breed ring people are participating in a sport, using disposable income. Classically, Border Collies were being purchased by shepherds who needed a working partner. As trialing has become more of a sport and people are willing to spend more, the price of trial dogs has gone up. Health testing is becoming more expensive, more easily utilized and the expected standard. This has also driven up the price of pups. Border Collies from working breeders still don't cost nearly what show bred pups do, but the prices are on the rise. I paid $150 for my first Border Collie pup. These days $800 to $1200 is becoming the norm in some areas for trial bred pups. However, it's not at all unusual for me to hear about prices in the $3000 to $5000 range for pups of some breeds. I even had a client drop $15000 on a puppy.

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I don't know how scholarly your sources have to be, but Rosettes to Ruin is certainly worth a look as a starting point. The Animal Estate by Harriet Ritvo has some interesting stuff about the history of the original Kennel Club in Great Britain and the arbitrariness of the breed standards it set (pp. 102-115). Others will probably occur to me.


Prices of AKC dogs are mainly higher because the AKC market will bear it; working stockmen will not pay dog fancy prices.

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Are you in college? The library should teach you how to use that web page. It's the standard search engine for scientific papers. The library should also grant you access to them so you don't have to pay to read the full articles.

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I don't understand how this website works. Could you elaborate?


The simplified version is at the top of the page: 1) chose pubmed in the drop down box 2) enter your search terms in the box 3) click search


The system will spit out a list of journal titles and abstracts. In some cases, you can obtain the full length article for free (there will be links after you click on the article of interest) and in other cases your local librarian may be able to assist or you can purchase the article online by following the links.

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Re: pricing: with a working bred pup you don't really know what you've got until it's old enough to train. Show breeders can often look at their pups and have a pretty good idea of which ones are show quality vs pet quality at a young age. I wouldn't begin to pay $1000 for a (to use the old chestnut) "pig in a poke" of a working pup. If I pay $400-600 and the pup doesn't turn out to be the sort of worker I need, then the time spent raising, bonding, training, etc., doesn't sting as much as it would if I spent twice or three times that.



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You certainly don't need to charge $1000/pup to cover expenses of eye and hip testing. Plenty of working breeders have been doing those tests for years. I don't know about BAER, because I don't see a need to do routine BAER testing of puppies -- only if there's some risk factor or indication of hearing deficit. But there are certainly enough tests available that you could probably run up a lot of expenses if you decided you needed to do them all.

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For a litter of 6 pups that would mean the health testing of the dam is costing $2,400 (assuming $600 pup price without testing). The cost of health testing the sire should be part of the stud fee and spread across all of the dams serviced. Perhaps alternative vet care with better pricing should be found if that will be the cost of health testing the dam.


CEA test: $180 (one time expense)


Hip radiograph <$600 (one time expense)


Physical & Brucellosis test <$200


There is no need to CEA test every pup (only normal & carriers should be produced); only those pups to be bred need to be tested prior to breeding (owner's responsibility).

One cannot hip test pups prior to sale.

CERF testing pups has little utility if CEA genetics are known.

BAER testing the pups may be called for with certain litters which may have congenital deafness.




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What about instead of just focusing on how awful AKC is which is over kill since it seems to be everyone favorite topic. Why not do a generic topic about how when you have any organization trying to document lines and/or set a standard for any/all dog breeds, how some people will take it to the extreme or how other people will just be bad apples having little to no regard to the well being of their dogs being bred. Haha


Idk show border collies vs working border collie vs sports border collies are comparing apples to oranges to plums.

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