When a dog doesn't like its housemate...suggestions?

[Urban Borders]

Hadn't thought about posting on here, but maybe someone has some advice. I would greatly appreciate it.

 

Situation is thus: I've had Mer for 6 years, got her when she was 7 weeks. She has always been an anxious dog, but with a lot of work, she had become a wonderful companion (she would go with me to school and then work, she slept quietly when alone at home or if I was home but occupied, she learned agility and finished her ADCH/went to finals at Nationals, and was good off lead--just ignored people and other dogs). Then I got Obs, who is now 20 months. Obs is...weird. She has never had and still doesn't really have any social skills, despite growing up in a house with 4 other BCs. Until I put her on Anxitane (about 5 weeks ago), she didn't sleep outside her crate, or stop moving all day long. She's truly brilliant at agility (she may turn out to be the best agility dog I ever have, that's how good she is), whip smart, and friendly with people and dogs. Just very, very hyper and not very socially adept.

 

Since I brought Obs home, I've noticed that Mer has become progressivley more and more anxious. Constantly on edge if Obs is out of her crate, and constantly on edge in general. And now she has become increasingly concerned other dogs at trials and on walks, which she has never done, to the point where I am worried that I may not be able to continue trialling her (which would be very sad for me, and sort of sad for her too). Obi will relax now that she has been on the Anitane, but Mer is never able to settle...she is constantly chewing on a bone, or running around, or suckling on a blanket (which is her means of coping with stress). She is NOT aggressive, even subtley (i.e., staring), with Obs, not around food or when they are wrestling or when they are both aroused. But she is always stressed when Obs is present, and that seems to be translating to other dogs as well.

 

I've tried feeding high value food when Obs is around, but that just makes Mer MORE stressed. And she has become very aroused about food (I actually got her T4 checked b/c of the polyphagia and the increased anxiety, but it was completely normal).

 

Help?

[juliepoudrier]

Have you tried antianxiety meds for Mer and rotating crate time (one in, one out)?

 

J.

[edawg]

For 6 years, it sounds like your dog had a good thing going until you brought the new dog in. It's been my experience (only) that there comes a point in their lives that our dogs don't like change. Sometimes the older dog isn't sure of their 'place' and it is very stressful for them.

 

It's hard to make things even-steven with a young one that needs more attention but adding the high value treats that maybe she didn't get before isn't part of what she's come to expect. It sounds like you switched it up and messed with her routine.

 

Why do you have such a young pup on anti-anxiety meds? (I know: I'm new here...but I have to ask)

 

The three of you need to go have some fun and relax, no training, outside of the house. Is there a dog park in your area that the 2 of them can have some fun and interact?

[Urban Borders]

Dog parks in Philly are pretty scary places; had a foster's leg get ripped open at one. When they are outside, Mer sits and stares at me, waiting for a toy (she will wait for over 30 minutes, LOL, I timed her), and Obs pesters her endlessly (at least she doesn't do that in the house any more; that I did not permit). They do both enjoy jogging, so we do that together.

 

And yeah, she had a good thing going. Mer has lived with other dogs most of her life (she's lived with the foster, with 4 other BCs who she very much enjoyed, and with 3 Greater Swiss Mountain Dogs, two of whom scared her)...but none of those dogs were mine. Except the foster, who she adored. And none were weird, like Obs...there are several nice dogs we know, I have noticed, who don't like Obi very much.

 

Anxitane is a supplement, not a medication. I dislike putting either on medication, although at this point I am almost ready to put Mer on it. Her quality of life is pretty poor right now. EDIT: I did try Anxitane AND DAP for Mer. Nada. Crating Obi makes Mer very happy. Mer has confinement anxiety, and can't be crated unless she is in that car or has a food toy to work on. If she sees Obs is out, and she isn't, she will bark frantically nonstop. She is fine being put up in a room where she can't see her, actually enjoys this very much...but we live in a one bedroom apartment :-/

[Root Beer]

And none were weird, like Obs...there are several nice dogs we know, I have noticed, who don't like Obi very much.

 

Anxitane is a supplement, not a medication. I dislike putting either on medication, although at this point I am almost ready to put Mer on it. Her quality of life is pretty poor right now. EDIT: I did try Anxitane AND DAP for Mer. Nada. Crating Obi makes Mer very happy. Mer has confinement anxiety, and can't be crated unless she is in that car or has a food toy to work on. If she sees Obs is out, and she isn't, she will bark frantically nonstop. She is fine being put up in a room where she can't see her, actually enjoys this very much...but we live in a one bedroom apartment :-/

 

It's a tough situation. I live with two who don't like each other, one of whom has an anxiety disorder, and it has its difficulties.

 

I know it would be pricey, but have you considered consulting Dr. Overall? She is in Philly, I believe.

 

Although it is a situation that may be help-able through training, the fact that you have two dogs dealing with anxiety can make it extremely tricky.

 

I would recommend things like helping Mer become comfortable in her crate while Obi is out. I would recommend doing carefully planned parallel work with the two of them (if you have a second person who could help with it). But that would be if both dogs were known to be of more or less solid temperament.

 

But when you have anxiety in the mix, you might be dealing with triggers and other factors that you aren't even aware of.

[Maralynn]

Have you looked into trying L-Theanine with Mer?

 

It's a natural supplement that has anxiety reducing properties.

 

ETA - just realized that Anxitane is L-Theanine.

 

FWIW, when my dog started getting some generalized anxiety in his kennel before hunting season (random gunshots) I started giving him the L-Theanine, then exercising him well and afterward putting him in his kennel. The combination of the supplement followed by good exercise put him in a mental place where he was relaxed and ready to chill.

[sandysfarm]

From reading your post I wonder if you're looking for confirmation that the dog-dog combo just doesn't work. No matter how one tries, here's not much to be said for one dog's happiness causing another dog's misery. Might be best to find a placement for the new dog.

[GentleLake]

Well, this probably isn't an answer you want to hear, but I wonder if rehoming Obs would be the best thing to do.

 

It just doesn't seem fair to Mer to have her life made so unhappy by the new dog.

[bcnewe2]

I wouldn't give up just yet but I have placed dogs before that just couldn't fit in the family. You owe it to yourself and both dogs if you can't find the comfy place for all.

It is not a failure to place a dog you own but doesn't fit your family. Specially if you find a better place for the dog.

You say other dogs haven't gotten along with obs. Could it be her and not Mer?

[Urban Borders]

Thanks, guys. I have considered rehoming, very seriously. Obs is from very nice herding lines, and I could probably still find her a home. There are probably agility homes that would take her as well. But I really don't want to give her up. I didn't have my heart set on them becoming best friends, but was hoping they would tolerate each other.

 

But this whole situation makes me so very sad. Just got in from a walk, and Mer was barking her head off at another dog: this is a dog that until she was 5 years old would tolerate anything from another dog (not that I intentionally put her in situations that she disliked, but if another dog was barking at her, it just rolled off her). Imagine if your best, most reliable, steadiest working partner just changed into a dog that jumped at shadows...it has been heartbreaking. I really don't know why she dislikes Obs so much, other than the fact that Obs just acts rather oddly (she's like a child on the autistic spectrum...brilliant in some ways, but very challenged in others).

 

Anyways, I guess I was just wondering if anyone had any suggestions that I HADN'T tried, because I am open to them. And I have talked about her with several board-certified behaviorists, who didn't have much hope for the situation, or just said put her on meds. Has anyone had two dogs, where one just didn't like the other, and it got better with time? Or is this just how it will be forever?

 

EDIT: And if you did have two dogs like this, and tried meds, did it help? Thanks.

[juliepoudrier]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but in my experience, dogs who don't get along generally get worse over time. This observation is limited to dogs who were aggressive toward one another and not just stressed by another's presence, but honestly, I just rehomed a dog because as much as I loved her the stress she was causing my older dogs was just not something I could tolerate. I felt that I owed it to the older dogs (ages 12, 14, 16.5) to make sure they lived their latter years in relative peace and happiness.

 

Because the issues I dealt with were either bitch-bitch aggression, or overexcited behavior resulting in aggression, I never tried meds. But I do wonder if such meds would affect performance and if that would be a consideration for you.

 

If you have your heart set on trialing Obi, then maybe you could find a "retirement" home for Mer, where she could be happier. Personally I would not send away an older dog in favor of a younger dog, but many people do, and in this case I guess if rehoming one is ultimately what you need to do, then what might drive your decision would be which dog would adjust better to a new/different home.

 

If you're still willing to pursue other options, then by all means do so. I would probably do some more talking with one behaviorist, with some in-depth consultation time dealing with how you *could* manage if you decide you want to keep both. Although you said that the behaviorists you consulted said it would not work, I think maybe picking one person and having some serious consults regarding management (drugs, management alone, drugs + management) is worth considering (assuming you haven't already done so--I just got the impression from your post that maybe you had had some conversations with several behaviorists but perhaps didn't do anything really in depth; I apologize if that's a misassumption).

 

J.

[Shetlander]

It is hard to have dogs who don't like each other. Quinn and the Lhasa are a very poor fit and they are now 8 and 11. I put in a fair amount of energy into managing them and keeping aware of how they are interacting. In some ways It is better than when things were getting bad 6 years ago. They are happy overall, but I know they would each be happier if the other was gone. Sorry not to have suggestions for the situation as described, but I wish you luck in finding a good solution for your two (and you).

[Sue R]

I have issues originating with Celt, with regards to his relations with Dan. I manage them as best as I can, Dan is amazingly mature in his reaction to Celt's anxious aggressiveness (although on occasion, he does like to push Celt's buttons), and I can see that the problem is becoming more serious with time. Celt is now 11 and Dan is 5. I am sure that as Celt continues to age, his insecurities will increase and we will have to be more proactive and manage the situation more and better to avoid conflict.

 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but in my experience, dogs who don't get along generally get worse over time.

[urge to herd]

Quote function isn't working for me either. Anyway, there may be more than one issue here. Or it may simply be two female dogs who don't get along, and Mer's increasing anxiety is how it shows itself.

 

Like Julie, my dog/dog aggression stuff got worse as time went on. I felt 'stuck', because Id believed that Shoshone likely would not move to yet another home easily, and Samantha came into my life before Shonie did.

 

If I ever come up with that situation again, I'd make much more use of veterinary behaviorists, and I'd medicate much earlier than I did. We had Shonie on clomicalm the last 3 or 4 yrs of her life, and it made a big difference.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

[Gloria Atwater]

Thanks, guys. I have considered rehoming, very seriously. Obs is from very nice herding lines, and I could probably still find her a home. There are probably agility homes that would take her as well. .....

 

But this whole situation makes me so very sad. Just got in from a walk, and Mer was barking her head off at another dog: this is a dog that until she was 5 years old would tolerate anything from another dog (not that I intentionally put her in situations that she disliked, but if another dog was barking at her, it just rolled off her). Imagine if your best, most reliable, steadiest working partner just changed into a dog that jumped at shadows...it has been heartbreaking. I really don't know why she dislikes Obs so much, other than the fact that Obs just acts rather oddly (she's like a child on the autistic spectrum...brilliant in some ways, but very challenged in others).

 

 

You've already pointed out the most important thing. Mer is not only reacting badly but she's suffering and digressing into really unfortunate behaviors. Is it really worth your wish, (to keep Obs and have them live together) to subject Mer to a situation that's causing her to degrade so much?

 

Medication may help, but ... we're talking quality of life, and it sounds like Mer's quality of life has taken a heavy hit. Obs may be a sweet and dear dog who speaks to your heart, but she's the new kid and Mer is suffering for it. If you ARE going to re-home her, now is the time to do it, not years from now when Obs is thoroughly settled into her life with you.

 

I know this is easy for me to say, because I'm not the one looking at giving up a promising and well-bred dog. But when it comes to an older dog's quality of life, the dog who has been with you for so long ... my vote will always go in favor of the long time family member. If you're considering rehoming Obs, consider well. In the end, it may be best for all.

 

I'm sorry for your miserable situation.

 

~ Glora

[Jenniecc]

I just re-homed my 4 1/2 yr old JRT because of escalating aggression with my 14 month old border collie Scout. I really tried to work things out with them with the help of my trainer, but my JRT was just miserable. An opportunity came up with a friend of a friend for a new home for her and after much soul searching, I let her go. I really believe it was the best decision for her and us. She's now in a home as an only dog getting all the love and attention from her new family. I did a home visit before letting her go and am receiving regular updates /pictures and she is doing really well. It was heartbreaking to let her go though. I feel for you.

[Liz P]

Curious why you are anti behavior meds? Human medicine has accepted for years that meds can make all the difference in the world for some cases. Veterinary medicine is finally catching up. One of my dogs would be dead if it wasn't for them. I've seen first hand what they can do. I used to be very against them, but meeting dogs who had been saved by them changed my mind.

 

I hate to say it, but when two dogs truly hate one another the best you can do is management. If you can't manage (do you have the time and space?) then rehoming might be the best choice. It's not an easy one to make, and I speak from personal experience.

[GentleLake]

I rehomed a beloved dog once because she was extremely sensitive and made miserable by my loud and verbally abusive husband. She would cower in a crate when he was home, trying to make herself invisible, even when he wasn't yelling at her.

 

It was a quality of life decision, and, yes, heartbreaking to make . . . . until I saw her in her new home with a friend I knew well, finally relaxed and happy as a clam.

 

I actually made the wrong decision. I shouldn't have rehomed the dog. I should've rehomed the husband, but it took me a few more years to realize that, and I ended up rehoming myself.

[sandysfarm]

I rehomed a beloved dog once because she was extremely sensitive and made miserable by my loud and verbally abusive husband. She would cower in a crate when he was home, trying to make herself invisible, when though he wasn't yelljng at her.

 

It was a quality of life decision, and, yes, heartbreaking to make . . . . until I saw her in her new home with a friend I knew well, finally relaxed and happy as a clam.

 

I actually made the wrong decision. I shouldn't have rehomed the dog. I should've rehomed the husband, but it took me a few more years to realize that, and I ended up rehoming myself.

 

 

 

That must have been a very hard period of time for you. I feel for you even though I'm sure it's behind you now.

[GentleLake]

Thanks, Sandysfarm. It was, but it's long enough ago now that it's barely a memory.

[Urban Borders]

Curious why you are anti behavior meds? Human medicine has accepted for years that meds can make all the difference in the world for some cases. Veterinary medicine is finally catching up. One of my dogs would be dead if it wasn't for them. I've seen first hand what they can do. I used to be very against them, but meeting dogs who had been saved by them changed my mind.

 

No worries, not against them at all. Yes, there are non-responders, and yes, there can be side effects. But they can also be a valuable tool in the toolbox when trying to reduce anxiety/arousal and modify the behavior of a fearful or anxious dog. BUT, Mer is special. She is my first dog, my best friend, and I think I just identify with her too much. I was on a TCA for neuropathic pain when I got sick during college; I immensely disliked how I felt when on it. It doesn't make any sort of logical sense, but I know that visceral dislike is coloring my choices about Mer (even if I can make more logical decisions about other dogs).

 

GentleLake :-( That is sad.

 

I will have a more in-depth discussion about her with a behaviorist, and maybe we will try meds. I hope it doesn't come to re-homing Obs, although if Mer continues to worsen or if things don't start improving within 6 months (don't know, thought that would be a reasonable "deadline"), I will have to consider that. Thanks for the insights.

[Gloria Atwater]

In my very humble opinion, 6 months is far, far too long to wait to see if Mer can accept this situation with a new dog. In 6 months' time, any behaviors or neurosis that Mer has fallen into will be entrenched in her psyche, and you may have a heck of a time trying to work her out of them - if she can indeed shed them at all. For her behavior to have already changed so dramatically, I'd fear that 6 more months of the same could do permanent harm. Remember, for her this is traumatic, stressful and miserable.

I'd give it weeks, at best, and in the meantime, do your utmost to protect and support Mer. Don't wait that long. Don't let her suffer that long.
Respectfully,

Gloria

[urge to herd]

I agree with Gloria. Six months is way too long, the anxiety/fear patterns will be well set in place. It only takes a few unpleasant incidents to fix something in their brains, and it sounds like Mer is having a lot of those.

 

Talk to your vet behaviorist as soon as possible.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

[G. Festerling]

I feel somewhat sorry for Mer.

 

She is a dog, as per your description, that struggled in the beginning and overcame with your help. Your training. Per your description, her world revolved around you.

 

Adding a new dog that gets equal or more attention (basing that on how you are describing her skills and abilities) would probably be hard on her to begin with. Did you invest as much time into the fosters? Now the new dog is on top of it all different...not a good situation.

 

Theoretically it should be possible to work into a sort of neutral state with you present. But the amount of time and attention needed maybe unreasonable. I manage two pairs or dogs like that. It sucks. One is a pair of ex fosters that have issues and don't look like they are going anywhere....the other my old girl and one of my shepherds. It was mutual hate from the first day on. I would gladly place the shepherd to not add stress to my old gals life.

[GentleLake]

I agree that 6 months is an awfully long time to wait to decide what to do.

 

You don't say how long Obs has been in your home, but if she's almost 20 months now and you got her as a puppy, then you already know full well what this relationship between them is. How reasonable do you think it is to expect it to change in another 6 months when it hasn't already, and in fact, is getting worse?

 

If you've only gotten Obs recently, then it would depend on how long she's been there. But unless she's only been there a couple weeks, the same applies.

 

6 months is a lot longer in a dog's life than it is in ours, a very important factor to consider, imo. It's the equivalent of making Mer miserable for another few years from her perspective.