Fast dog in search of skilled handler

[gcv-border]

In the spirit of trying examine my handling skills, I watched a couple of videos I have of our agility runs. Here is one -- (I hope it can be viewed it since I had a steep learning curve with uploading to Youtube, etc.)

 

What can't be seen (blocked by A-frame) is Torque jumping the down contact on the AF, and then I wasn't able to push him out to the right entrance of the tunnel. He had decided he wanted to go into the left entrance. I should have know better since my instructor is always reminding us that the dog usually likes to 'curl' towards the handler - so plan your run accordingly. If I had to do it again, I would run on the right side of the AF.

 

Other that those two bloopers, the rest of the run was pretty decent - but I still want to run a little faster and be more supportive to my dog.

 

 

Jovi

[ChantalB]

Nice run, great distance skills.

 

Thanks for posting that, I never thought of it that way with the curl versus 'blocking' an entrance. I had a similar fault last weekend at regionals, straight fast line into the right tunnel mouth, when it was suppose to be taken at the left. I stood on the right hoping to 'block' and push into the left mouth. Obviously it didn't work -20 points, rats!. It would of been totally possible to get on the left side of that line, I was just scared of leaving the open option. Something to practice this week I guess.

 

Course analysis is a weak point for me, need more experience, I love post like this!

[ChantalB]

On a similar note, do people put directionals on tunnel mouths? I'm thinking if doing it. Calling it A and B or something else to cue.

[Jumpin Boots]

I use my discrimination cues for u shaped tunnels, which also happens to be my directionals. So a 'left tunnel' would mean for the dog to change to their left lead therefore taking them to a left arc and therefore the left tunnel entrance.

[Jumpin Boots]

Nice run Jovi, looks like Torque is having a great time!

[Diana A]

It's hard to see what happened since the aframe was in the way of the camera, but I have seen that sort of thing before when the dog comes off the contact ahead of the handler. It's natural for the dog to turn their head a little bit to keep you in their peripheral vision, and where the head points the body will follow - in the dog's mind they're going straight because they're going where they're looking. You being on that side and also behind is a strong combination of cues to turn, with nothing telling her to kick out away from you for the other end of the tunnel. I can tell from the rest of the run that she's a confident 'forward' type of dog and likes to see a line and just go, so she might have had that line to the wrong end of the tunnel already picked out even as she came over the top of the aframe, based on your position at that time, and it was too late for you running up there to change her mind once she was on her way down.

 

When there's a discrimination like this, I use the dog's name with the obstacle command for the near obstacle and an 'out' with the name for the far end if I don't feel I can make it absolutely clear on body language alone. That is assuming I've set a path for the dog where both ends appear to a possibility. For this set up, if the dog didn't have a stopped contact or a solid enough start line for a longer lead out (either of which would help me to get ahead to push to the correct tunnel end), I would run it from the other side so the correct tunnel end is more obvious and I'm working with my dog's natural inclinations instead of against them. I don't know if any trained verbal would have worked in this situation where the dog was already turned away from the correct obstacle so that it wasn't even an obvious possibility. The handling needs to put the dog in a good location to make the right decision, and then a trained verbal is just back-up to make it more clear which of two possible options is the correct one.

[mickif]

Nice run! Can I comment ? See how your path follows the lines of the obstacles? where you then slightly pulled your shoulders to the left as he ascends the AF? At this point he probably decided he was going the the left tunnel . You could still handle this from the left, and it would give him better info on where to go next, if you set your path to converge to the descending bottom of the AF. Hard to see for sure on video, but looks like a straight line from jump one to tunnel side of AF might be a better option for the handlers path. Just food for thought .

[mum24dog]

I use my discrimination cues for u shaped tunnels, which also happens to be my directionals. So a 'left tunnel' would mean for the dog to change to their left lead therefore taking them to a left arc and therefore the left tunnel entrance.

 

This.

[mum24dog]

What can't be seen (blocked by A-frame) is Torque jumping the down contact on the AF, and then I wasn't able to push him out to the right entrance of the tunnel. He had decided he wanted to go into the left entrance.

Jovi

 

You lost control on the start line by letting him change position and creep. Your body language and reinforcements told him you weren't confident that he would wait and since he has partly released himself from where you left him he hasn't got a clear release cue. You look like you are afraid he is going to take off as soon as you take his leash off.

 

If you have control of the start line it is more likely that the dog will do as cued on course.

 

Have you tried changing what you do on the line completely? Maybe his problem is not the distance that you go but the time he has to wait. Have you tried training him to wait while you confidently run out to take position?

 

You race him to the contact and that is only going to push him to go faster and wilder. With a dog as keen as he is racing him is not going to be a good idea.

 

If you could get to the Aframe before releasing him you would have time to move smoothly and calmly into position at the contact to manage the tunnel entrance, whichever side you decided to do it from. I would disagree with your instructor if she was generalising that dogs curl towards the handler - some do, some don't. It depends on natural inclination, prior training and handling style. Your dog is clearly one that looks forward not back - at least from that video. You should be able to push him into a tunnel rather than rely on him coming towards you off the A frame.

 

However, if you had gone down the right you would have been further ahead of your dog after he exited the tunnel and that's what you need to be planning for. You are never going to be able to keep up with him.

 

Nice dog with lots of potential though, and I'm impressed by the independent work. Velcro dogs are such hard work - give me a dog that will do the work itself any day.

[Jumpin Boots]

I agree with mumdog regarding your start line, to me it appears as though Torque isn't confident with what releases him. Dogs are a lot more likely to pick a moving release from your body, which he appears to be trying to do. As your pace walking away evens out he seems to think that is his release, but then you stop so he corrects, then you start moving and he again thinks he's releasing, when you do finally release him it is still with movement and looks the same as when he tried to release himself, but I am assuming he was given an audible and with your forward motion committed to releasing off the start line. I don't have any motion in my start lines until my dog is solid on the verbal release alone.

[alligande]

I also agree with Mum24dog, work on your start line so it's rock solid, which with a fast dog enables all sorts of options at the start.

In training I can look like a complete idiot at the start, I vary my motion, my words, some times I run around in circles, yesterday I jumped up and down trying to look like I was about to run, I wave my arms around, all reinforcing that the game does not begin untill I say OK.

Your body language at the Aframe looked confused, as you can't see what happened with the fly off, I think Torque made his own decision as your body was not telling him what to do. The rest of the run you have nice control, the only point where your handling looks odd is right at the Aframe. When my partner does not hold his 2o2o I take the time to regroup ( this applies to any issue weave pole entrances etc.) we stop, organize ourselves and go on. Torque is fast enough that you should still make time despite the stops, we can, we have even won a few times despite having a couple of on course stoppages.

I don't have verbals for left or right, the only words I use are over/contact/Rievaulx and the occasional out, I am adding back to my repertoire, when I am running flat out I am incapable of remembering my left from my right, I rely on his response to my physical handling to get the right discrimination.

[gcv-border]

Thanks to all for their analysis. I got a lot of good ideas for what to work on and y'all are helping me better understand what is going on.

 

Torque is my first agility dog so although he is/could be talented, he is saddled with me. I enjoy the challenge of learning how to handle this pushy 'forward' boy , but it has taken me some time to come up to speed, so to speak, and I know that I am still not there. Luckily, Torque is very forgiving.

 

Start line stay - I have worked on more consistency since this trial (Feb), but I know that I can continue to proof it (add distractions, etc.) during training as he is fine in training, but the trial atmosphere causes him to creep. As you saw, I am stopping and saying 'stay' to try and prevent a self-release.

 

Release cue - my release cue is 'break', but I also pair it with my movement at the same time since I know that if I don't move, he will leave me in his dust in less than 2 seconds - so I am trying to keep up with him. (He probably senses my desperation. ) I used to release with a verbal and wait for him to get to me (novice mistake). Then it was "oh $h!t", I was really behind. So I have tried to break myself of the waiting mistake by moving at the same time I release him and hopefully set up some flow.

 

Diana, You do have Torque pegged as a dog that will see a line and just go. I know that if I am late with a directional or command, he has already made up his mind where HE thinks the course is. I am constantly struggling with trying to figure out how to time my signals to give him information early enough, but not too early as he will also turn on a dime (right before a jump, for example) to go left or right when I thought he would take the jump, THEN go left or right. I think you are probably right that he decided which tunnel entrance he was going into (based on my body positiioning, etc.) when he came over the top of the AF. I will definitely have to remember this train of thinking in the future.

 

All in all, even though I haven't addressed all the comments, I appreciate them as they are all valid. I will certainly spend some time thinking about this run and the improvements I can make.

 

Chantal - Re: directionals. I think it is very useful to have a 'left' and 'right' command, BUT for this situation where the dog is to be directed to the left or right tunnel entrance, I know handlers who use an "out" and "close" command for discrimination. I think that is simpler than 'left' and 'right' since it is based on positioning rather than a specific direction - and for myself, it is easier to say 'out' or 'close' while running a course rather than having to think for a split-second about 'left' or 'right' - and sometimes getting mixed up, no matter how many times I have gone over it in my mind prior to the actual run.

 

Jovi

[gcv-border]

Alligande

You posted while I was writing.

 

Yes, more work on start line stay. Even though I thought it was good, it still needs work.

 

We (Torque and I) are working on a running contact. (I have described his shoulder injury and subsequent surgery in a previous post. Thus, no 2020 - even though it costs me Qs.) The lack of a good contact behavior (less than 40-50% success) is very costly, but with contacts, I haven't quite figured out how to 'fix' it during a run because of the 4 paw rule on contacts in AKC. If I put him back on the contact, I would get whistled off. So when you say that you regroup, do you just stop for a second to collect your dog and make sure he is focused on you before continuing the course.

 

Yes, the AF behavior, on my part, is definitely not confident handling. I am still trying to manage his contacts, but am not being successful. I need more training time with the RCs.

 

We are very much a work in progess - with less-than-stellar runs.

 

Jovi

[mum24dog]

So I have tried to break myself of the waiting mistake by moving at the same time I release him and hopefully set up some flow.

 

But you need one release cue and one only so your dog is in no doubt; movement shouldn't come into the equation. As alligande says, you should be able to dance around, wave your arms about etc and your dog shouldn't twitch a muscle until you release him. Beware of pairing your movement with the verbal release as your dog will be looking for it not listening to what you say.

 

 

We (Torque and I) are working on a running contact. (I have described his shoulder injury and subsequent surgery in a previous post. Thus, no 2020 - even though it costs me Qs.) The lack of a good contact behavior (less than 40-50% success) is very costly, but with contacts, I haven't quite figured out how to 'fix' it during a run

 

You are never going to fix it during a run as your dog clearly doesn't understand your contact criteria. Every time he blows a contact in the ring it puts you further away from achieving reliable contacts. Less than 50% success to me says never try to compete in a class with contacts - jumping only until his contacts are 100% in training.

 

Reliable running contacts are hard to achieve even by experienced handlers and you are going to have your work cut out. At the moment he is learning more bad ring behaviour than good where contacts are concerned. Don't give him the opportunity.

 

And if you are hoping for RCs you will need good directional cues as well.

[alligande]

Jovi, I just stop, get my monster focused on me, his issues are yelling at me if I am a micro second slow, so if he yells or leaps then I stop, get him focused and back on the correct side and we are off the the races again.

A trainer suggested this to me when I was bitching I was never going to get out of novice because the courses were to easy, and my dog frustrated, and she pointed out I could stop, and easily make time which we do.

 

If you are doing running contacts, then that start line stay is going to be very useful - I would have led out on the other side and you would have been in a good position to pull your dog into the tunnel, he would have seen from your path where the next obstacle was. I watched the video again and now knowing that was a running contact realized you sent him into that tunnel, watch where you are heading as he takes the Aframe straight at the tunnel entrance, so as he crests the Aframe he is thinking that end of the tunnel is his destination and there was no way you were going to be able to use a push.

 

I don't do AKC so do not know if stopping is in the rules, USDAA and NADAC allow it. I used NADAC trials to train both my start line and contacts, which really helped.

[gcv-border]

But you need one release cue and one only so your dog is in no doubt; movement shouldn't come into the equation. As alligande says, you should be able to dance around, wave your arms about etc and your dog shouldn't twitch a muscle until you release him. Beware of pairing your movement with the verbal release as your dog will be looking for it not listening to what you say.

 

 

 

You are never going to fix it during a run as your dog clearly doesn't understand your contact criteria. Every time he blows a contact in the ring it puts you further away from achieving reliable contacts. Less than 50% success to me says never try to compete in a class with contacts - jumping only until his contacts are 100% in training.

 

Reliable running contacts are hard to achieve even by experienced handlers and you are going to have your work cut out. At the moment he is learning more bad ring behaviour than good where contacts are concerned. Don't give him the opportunity.

 

And if you are hoping for RCs you will need good directional cues as well.

Release cue - I can jump about, etc. in practice. It is during the trial atmosphere that the creeping etc. starts. I do need to get my butt moving, so I am now thinking that I should practice starting my movement (which will require more start line stay training) before I release him on a verbal, rather than pairing the verbal and the motion at the same time. ???

 

Yes, agree with you on the RCs. My thoughts too. I often don't enter a class with contacts (and I have also frequently scratched him from a class with contacts because I was not comfortable with his training status at that time), but when I think that training is going well, I will test him at a trial. Then, it is back to the drawing board. I should be more patient in the future and wait until his contacts in practice are more successful. I admit I push it sometimes because I don't attend many trials - so when I do, I want to see what he does. My bad.

 

Jovi

[gcv-border]

 

 

I don't do AKC so do not know if stopping is in the rules, USDAA and NADAC allow it. I used NADAC trials to train both my start line and contacts, which really helped.

Yes, you can stop and regroup in AKC, but you can not send your dog over a contact again or even make him assume the 2020 position at the bottom of the DW or AF (considered training in the ring) once he misses it. Else, you are whistled off.

 

Jovi

[alligande]

Release cue - I can jump about, etc. in practice. It is during the trial atmosphere that the creeping etc. starts. I do need to get my butt moving, so I am now thinking that I should practice starting my movement (which will require more start line stay training) before I release him on a verbal, rather than pairing the verbal and the motion at

 

Jovi

This is it... Don't pair motion with the verbal, motion is not clear as you could take of running and not want him to break. Try training your start line with just the verbal, once you are sure he understands which word his release word, start to add motion, run past him, run around, run backwards and release him to you at different times, but don't forget to do static starts as well, some lead outs don't need any motion.

 

Can you find any NADAC/asca/CPE/UKI trials to train in the ring... It really is invaluable to be able to reinforce a start line behaviour in a trial environment, and it's easy to do if you don't care about the Q

[Jumpin Boots]

I think you may find that if you can achieve a solid start line where you can place your dog without him budging. And you can lead out to that optimum spot, be that out in front or a lateral lead out, that you will have time to release from a stand still and start moving as soon as he does without needing motion in your release, this will be a lot easier for him to understand when he is right or wrong during his release. I am not suggesting that you release him and wait for him prior to moving forward. In time you may be able to add motion, but IMO if you can place him in the correct spot and get yourself into a good position without worrying about him moving himself around or you tip toeing out l to your spot you may find you don't need to moving start line.

[Sekah]

Nice run, great distance skills.

 

Thanks for posting that, I never thought of it that way with the curl versus 'blocking' an entrance. I had a similar fault last weekend at regionals, straight fast line into the right tunnel mouth, when it was suppose to be taken at the left. I stood on the right hoping to 'block' and push into the left mouth. Obviously it didn't work -20 points, rats!. It would of been totally possible to get on the left side of that line, I was just scared of leaving the open option. Something to practice this week I guess.

 

Course analysis is a weak point for me, need more experience, I love post like this!

 

My instructor always yelled at us if we tried to block improper entrances rather than showing the correct one. Him drilling that into my head has really helped my ability to analyze courses and handle them more smoothly and conscientiously.

 

On a similar note, do people put directionals on tunnel mouths? I'm thinking if doing it. Calling it A and B or something else to cue.

 

I personally don't. I'll often try to verbally cue an "out" if I want my dog to take the the far entrance and I'll try to counter rotate if I need to pull her in. If you have a dog who's way way out in front cuing a left vs. a right may help, but I think for the most part you can always cue the proper end via positioning. I try not to offer too many verbal cues to my dog while running. She's much more comfortable reading body language, and it's been good for me to learn to stop the chitchat.

[alligande]

I think you may find that if you can achieve a solid start line where you can place your dog without him budging. And you can lead out to that optimum spot, be that out in front or a lateral lead out, that you will have time to release from a stand still and start moving as soon as he does without needing motion in your release, this will be a lot easier for him to understand when he is right or wrong during his release. I am not suggesting that you release him and wait for him prior to moving forward. In time you may be able to add motion, but IMO if you can place him in the correct spot and get yourself into a good position without worrying about him moving himself around or you tip toeing out l to your spot you may find you don't need to moving start line.

This is what I have, the key to making it work is to move on the release word, as you have found out it is very easy not to do this ( I have been fully guilty) as one trainer said to me stop standing admiring your dog!

[gcv-border]

.....the key to making it work is to move on the release word, as you have found out it is very easy not to do this ( I have been fully guilty) as one trainer said to me stop standing admiring your dog!

But for us novices, it is sooo cool to release your dog and have him come blasting towards you over jumps or whatnot. I have also been told "Yes, your dog is pretty. Yes, your dog is fast. But MOVE, Da--it, MOVE."

 

He is very good at focus forward training so I am comfortable standing wherever I have to (in the front or to the side), then releasing him and knowing he will go over the first obstacle (i.e. he will not run to me and bypass the obstacle.)

 

Jovi

[Beach BCs]

Regarding the running contacts: My Tex has always despised any kind of stopped contact. Demotivating. So RCs for us. Unfortunately, he has a nasty habit of blowing them, ESPECIALLY the AFrame. What I've started doing at trials is when he blows his contact I 'collect' him and we walk to the next obstacle. Then we're off and running again. He isn't a happy camper walking anywhereon an agility course. But he's starting to get the hint that if he makes his contacts he can keep on trucking. Blow it off and we slow way down.

 

BTW, if thought overall it was a really nice run!

[ChantalB]

 

Chantal - Re: directionals. I think it is very useful to have a 'left' and 'right' command, BUT for this situation where the dog is to be directed to the left or right tunnel entrance, I know handlers who use an "out" and "close" command for discrimination. I think that is simpler than 'left' and 'right' since it is based on positioning rather than a specific direction - and for myself, it is easier to say 'out' or 'close' while running a course rather than having to think for a split-second about 'left' or 'right' - and sometimes getting mixed up, no matter how many times I have gone over it in my mind prior to the actual run.

 

Jovi

Agreed now! Just worked on those in class tonight! Always new lessons to learn, I feel your "pain/excitement" of the first dog lessons!

[ChantalB]

Regarding the running contacts: My Tex has always despised any kind of stopped contact. Demotivating. So RCs for us. Unfortunately, he has a nasty habit of blowing them, ESPECIALLY the AFrame. What I've started doing at trials is when he blows his contact I 'collect' him and we walk to the next obstacle. Then we're off and running again. He isn't a happy camper walking anywhereon an agility course. But he's starting to get the hint that if he makes his contacts he can keep on trucking. Blow it off and we slow way down.

 

BTW, if thought overall it was a really nice run!

Same with my Jude. And I also find it demotivating to myself too, I like fast!! Hense my table hating. Also, he started blowing his stops, looked jnto it more and it was infact hurting his shoulder. Even my great collection and rear end skills a fast dog coming to a full stop, some of that energy will get sent forward.

 

I like that walking idea I know a few dogs that would be handy with.