Input Please

[beachdogz]

Background: Rusty (appx. 3-4 yr. old BC), rescued from a Shelter 1.5+ years ago, has been in agility class for almost a year now. In the beginning, he was also trained at home on all equipment. Things were progressing quite smoothly. His confidence in running was building very nicely. Then, we had a long break over Christmas and New Years (no classes). When starting back, I found that he was lacking drive and maybe interest.

 

Now, it seems that the floor is always more interesting than the course. Many times in class, we train segments, before putting it all together. He takes any opportunity he can to sniff the floor, and is now even ignoring jump commands and sniffing.

 

Tonight, my instructor told me to just take off ahead of him and see if he followed. Nope. That was worse. He started going around jumps. So I then simply put the leash back on him and ran him through the course on lead. Voila! A totally different dog. Obviously showed more confidence when the leash was on.

 

Obstacles are not a problem. He goes over them with no hesitation. The problem is in the flow of running the obstacles. I can take the lead off before the obstacle and he will do them, but then I have to put it back on to get to the next one, or I either get sniffing or slowness.

 

To add to this, I need to mention that we are also going through some regression at home as well as in class. He disliked men when I got him (didn't growl, just backed away); we worked through that with my husband, but now at times he will back off . Then he'll go up and be my husband's best friend. So the regression is happening both at home and at class. Nothing traumatic has happened in either place.

 

So I'm wondering what the next step YOU would take with this dog. I've thought of giving him a break - however, it was the break from agility that seemed to start this. If you think I should compulsively correct the sniffing, know that I cannot do any compulsion on this dog; he is way too soft, and I totally do not think his sniffing is rebellious (for lack of a better word.) I have started to incorporate some CU into the class training.

 

Any thoughts? I'd like to hear them!

 

Thank you.

[ChantalB]

Sniffing is a sign of stress.

 

Build more value for individual jumps and obstacles even if he can do 1. I would not move in until you can send him over a jump from minimum 18 feet away. From all angles. Then do the same thing for 2 obstacle sequences. And so on and so on. Don't move pn till your dog is showing huge drive. The leash makes me think he is very unsure of himself and his job, and when its on he knows you are right there to guide him and he doesnt have to think for himself so much. That tells me he needs more foundation work and confidence games.

 

Goodluck :-)

[ChantalB]

Double post

[TEC]

As you know it is unusual for a border collie to not be excited about running and jumping. Rusty may be stressed, bored or both.

 

Could the strange dogs and people in the class have him off his game? My border collie, as a youngster, upon arriving at a new place for sheepdog training, would (for instance) put her head down to follow old coyote trails for a distance, and show renewed interest in sheep pellets. Many young herding dogs, the first time or two on sheep, have trouble taking necessary correction, and try to leave the field. Both reactions are disconcerting at first, but with the proper responses, dogs get over them. In those circumstances the accepted answer is to firmly (not meanly or harshly) require the dog to briefly continue working, give it a break, and go back for another short work.

 

Another thought is that Rusty is a little bored. Border collies do not have good tolerance for mindless repetition. When I would forget my own advice, I heard my dog say, "Hey, I just did that twice, and you are asking me to repeat it. What was wrong with the first two times? That handsome dog over there looks interesting, so I'll be back in a moment." After a few good reps, my dog wanted to review an older skill, or move on to something new.

 

Compartmentalizing the course into tiny segments for training purposes may work for some dogs, but not for yours. Rusty may be more excited about running a larger chunk of the course, rather that just a couple obstacles.

 

Group classes tend to fall into the cookie-cutter, or one-size-fits-all approach to dog training. Many instructors have difficulty taking an individual dog's personality into account. Group classes, whether sheepdog training or agility, have the potential to suck the fun/excitement out of the air.

 

Would incorporating a lure like a ball or tug-toy into agility revive Rusty's excitement? I know that I am more animated/encouraging working alone with my dog, than in front of a group.

 

Consider, if appropriate, a discussion with your instructor to tweak Rusty's curriculum in ways he/she could work into the group session. Another thought is to obtain private lessons for while, getting out of the lock-step approach, to see whether Rusty can become more interested in the game. I realize agility trials are often crowded and rushed, but one-on-one for the time being, could get him ready for classes and trialing. Josie and I really enjoyed outdoor private lessons which gradually transitioned to group. That approach worked well for us.

 

Above suggestions are based on training and just having fun with my dog for quite some time, and attending all types of private and group classes. IMO Rusty can work through this. May take a little time, patience and trying a variety of strategies. I recognize a lot of what you describe in my border collie, and she has become a happy performance dog. Very best wishes and please keep this thread posted. Others will have good ideas. -- TEC

[mum24dog]

Border collies do not have good tolerance for mindless repetition.

 

IME that's just what most of them do have, why else would they be so good at competitive obedience? Getting them to stop is the hard part.

 

But individual dogs do differ and Rusty seems to be displaying classic signs of stress. Trying to animate him could make him shut down even more.

 

I've had the same problem with my terrier and used the same approach as ChantalB suggests - going back to square 1 and making just 1 jump fun.

 

I would be inclined to have a physical check up carried out on Rusty though. This behaviour has come on unexpectedly and the fact that he can do individual jumps or sequences on lead may not mean that there isn't something hurting somewhere that is putting him off sequences on his own.

[alligande]

I would second a trip to the vet. Brody was never very fond of agility but he went along with it, and we got to the point where he was comfortable enough to Q. But a couple of times he would revert to visiting ring workers or just looking stressed... Once was fixed by a trip to the chiropractor as his pelvis was out of alignment. Another time was more serious and he had started to get aggressive again in the truck and was just allround snippy as you said reverting to behaviors he had when we got him. This time it was Lyme... and I had to insist the vet test for it.

 

Regarding repetition, Brody would get bored easily I did not understand or have any sort of clue what I was doing and did not build enough value into the activity when we started, with him as long as we kept moving life was fine, repeat a sequence and he gave up. My current dog will keep doing whatever I ask, until I give up.....but he has been successfully brainwashed to believe agility is the best thing in life.

[gcv-border]

All of the above are good points.^^

 

If he is healthy, is he stressed (sniffing) in a non-agility environment when he is around other dogs? If so, work on his socialization skills.

 

Returning to foundation training is a good idea. Will he jump at home without a leash on? Does he show joy in jumping? Build value for jumping by throwing a ball/favorite toy over the jump. I will use treats in agility, but prefer toy rewards since I throw them - which causes the dog to keep moving beyond the obstacle. Placement of the reinforcer is key. Since you are having trouble with him moving from one obstacle to the next, this may help him keep going. When you treat a dog after an obstacle, it stops the flow and the fun. Treating is often useful when initially training an obstacle, but I try to move off the treat fairly rapidly.

 

I agree that giving him a break may not help his issues. Return to foundation work and make it all about fun and running!

 

Like alligande, I have brainwashed (I like that) my dog to love agility. When we had 3 weeks off due to weather, he went nuts when we went back to class. He held his start line stay, but once on the course, he went wildly running around to as many obstacles as he could. It was pretty funny. Once he got that out of his system, he was much better.

 

Jovi

[Root Beer]

IME that's just what most of them do have, why else would they be so good at competitive obedience? Getting them to stop is the hard part.

 

But individual dogs do differ and Rusty seems to be displaying classic signs of stress. Trying to animate him could make him shut down even more.

 

I have found that Border Collies that tend to stress often do have issues with repetition.

 

If I have Dean do something a bunch of times in a row, he starts to get worried, even if he is getting a 1:1 ratio of food reinforcers. If I want him to repeat something a bunch of times, I have to change it up and either insert other behaviors between repetitions, or actually break off and throw a toy or something.

 

As we have worked together, his ability for repetition has increased substantially, but he will never be a Speedy who can do something 10 times in a row and be ready for more, more, more of exactly the same.

 

I know others in the same boat with their stress-prone Border Collies.

 

And, yes, it is a fine line with these dogs between giving them a chance to decompress and trying to animate them. I have erred on both sides, and learned, over time, to read the situation carefully before going one way or another.

 

That said, Dean's ability to be "jollied" into not worrying about something that causes him low-level stress has also increased substantially over the years, but that happened because I stopped trying to do that on a regular basis long ago, instead removing him from situations to re-set when possible.

 

To the OP: Since you are using CU games, I suggest two things.

 

First, the Give Me a Break Game. I've had a ton of success using that with dogs who stress in situations like you describe. Often the removal of social pressure is just the thing to help the dog gain confidence and move past stress.

 

Also, if your dog loves the mat, you can incorporate that. Have two mats - one on either side of a piece of equipment. Place dog on mat, reinforce, cue a release, take equipment, go to other mat, reinforce. Gradually increase the number of pieces of equipment between the mats. This worked wonderfully for a very, very stressed Havanese that I worked with several years ago. He doesn't need a mat anymore, but the handler literally started with one mat - one piece - mat and gradually built.

 

If you see signs of stress at any point, you can go back to foundation games.

 

I wish you the best. This sort of thing requires a lot of patience, but there is potential for improvement and you will see the results over time.

[Sekah]

Another thought is that Rusty is a little bored. Border collies do not have good tolerance for mindless repetition.

 

Just a little anecdote on this. I was running a Snooker course and the weaves were the 7-point obstacle. I decided to try and be fancy and use them as my obstacle of choice 3 times. The first time Cohen, my Aussie, did marvelously. She nailed her entry from a particularly difficult angle and stayed in the poles while I re-positioned to send her over a jump and back. The second repetition was also great. Over a jump and back. The third repetition everything just fell apart. She popped out, then she missed her entry (and she never misses her entry!), she popped out again, and again. We struggled through it brutally. Then she took an off course jump and we were whistled off.

 

Looking back, she didn't understand that she'd been doing the poles correctly and started to stress when asked to repeat them multiple times. She's a green dog, I'm a green handler, and I should have taken this into account. I don't plan on asking her to run a course like that again for a good long time -- I'll make sure keep it more flowy and reinforcing.

 

Anyways, I completely agree with the advice contained in this thread. Don't ever use a leash to compel your dog to do obstacles and sequences in agility - in a soft dog like yours it seems like a surefire way to poison the sport, and in harder dogs, well, it's unnecessary and can be dangerous. Go back to basics and work to make it fun. It sounds like a case of you trying to move too far too fast and your dog not being able to keep up.

[beachdogz]

Thank you!!! Lots of good stuff, here!!!

 

I'll try to answer some of these:

"As you know it is unusual for a border collie to not be excited about running and jumping. Rusty may be stressed, bored or both.

Could the strange dogs and people in the class have him off his game?"

 

Rusty is the most laid-back BC you will ever meet. I'm not sure if he is hard-wired that way, or if it is just because he is adjusting in a new home. He has never been excited about anything and never knew how to play with the other dogs. He is coming around to that a little. Re strange dogs, he's been in the same class with most of the same dogs for almost a year, so I'm sure that is not the problem.

 

"Build value for jumping by throwing a ball/favorite toy over the jump."

"Would incorporating a lure like a ball or tug-toy into agility revive Rusty's excitement?"

 

Oh, if only I could!! But the dog that doesn't know how to play with dogs, also never knew how to play with toys. We have worked on that, and he will run after a ball, but doesn't know what to do next. He enjoys chasing the ball with the other dogs more than actually getting it. Sometimes he gets the ball, but then doesn't seem to know what to do with it. I am convinced he lived most of his life in a cage or enclosure.

 

"If he is healthy, is he stressed (sniffing) in a non-agility environment when he is around other dogs? If so, work on his socialization skills."

 

Yes, he is sniffing if there have been other dogs present where he is...agility or not. I realize that CU lists sniffing as a stress indicator, but are there ever times when sniffing is just sniffing...just being a dog?

 

"Don't ever use a leash to compel your dog to do obstacles and sequences in agility - in a soft dog like yours it seems like a surefire way to poison the sport"

 

You would have had to seen the dog when I put the leash on....he literally lit up! His whole demeanor changed, which convinced me that it is a confidence problem. I'm not really interested in clinging to a leash forever. Lots of good advice in this thread regarding going back to foundation work.

 

I will know more when the weather breaks a little (darn groundhog...what happened to early spring? We had plenty of snow last night.) Once I get him out in the yard here at home, I will probably have more pieces to the puzzle.

 

Since I never plan to show him, there is no time limit and no pressure on my part to remedy this. Agility has been therapy for both him and me.

 

And to ease any frustration on my part, I always have the second dog who runs like gangbusters and LIVES for agility class. I welcome any and all suggestions...will use them in trying to solve the problem.

[alligande]

Thank you!!! Lots of good stuff, here!!!

 

 

 

"Build value for jumping by throwing a ball/favorite toy over the jump."

"Would incorporating a lure like a ball or tug-toy into agility revive Rusty's excitement?"

 

Oh, if only I could!! But the dog that doesn't know how to play with dogs, also never knew how to play with toys. We have worked on that, and he will run after a ball, but doesn't know what to do next. He enjoys chasing the ball with the other dogs more than actually getting it. Sometimes he gets the ball, but then doesn't seem to know what to do with it. I am convinced he lived most of his life in a cage or enclosure.

 

 

This caught my eye... Have you tried building value in driving towards a bowl with food in or a manners minder. This is one of the foundation exercises in Agility Right from the start. You first teach the dog to run to the bowl, or the manners minder, have someone hold him ( basically a restrained recall) and he is rewarded by running to the bowl which you control. then you can introduce stanchions and have him run through them, but only once the dog understands the game is to run straight to the bowl.

You can use this technique to build drive for contacts, weaves, jumps even just running with you... Once he understands the goal is just to run.... no toy needed. The above mentioned Brody had no interest in toys... What we did achieve was with food. And my brainwashed boy we played this game a lot when he was a puppy.

 

Edited to add: this is more than just using a bowl as a reward, it teaching the dog using the restraint to drive to the bowl.. Hope that makes sense

[gcv-border]

If you don't mind, a couple more suggestions based on what you have posted (since I think it would be great fun for Rusty to enjoy agility):

 

If he doesn't have ball drive or toy drive, but is food motivated?, try one of those treat bags. I am not sure of an exact name, but they are often made of cordura fabric with a velcro closure so that you can put treats inside. Put really smelly treats inside, let Rusty sniff it, then play with it yourself. Maybe play a little keep away, then throw it a foot or 2. Hopefully Rusty will run to it, then you can pick it up and open it to give him a treat. Convince him (by playing with it - away from the agility field at first) that it is the best thing in the world. If he is a food-motivated dog, the treat bag can help transition to more of a toy drive.

 

Brainstorming now: if he likes being on a leash, you might be able to transition him off it by attaching a 'leash' made from very light-weight line. I would first try to drop the leash while he is doing something he enjoys and he may not even notice that he is no longer 'on leash'. If he is OK with that (dragging a leash around and still displaying confidence), I might start cutting off the end of the leash bit by bit until he is no longer dragging it around. Just a thought.

 

Good Luck,

Jovi

[beachdogz]

Alligande and Jovi

 

Those are two interesting and creative ideas that I can get really excited about! I might have to forgo the food bowl for just a pile of food when in class.....maybe on a target (like I used to teach go-outs in Utility). Never thought of that!! Also, the treat bags. Never heard of them, but I will look those up. I can see using them to keep his momentum when he starts to lose focus.

 

I have dropped the leash while running and he maintains his enthusiasm. We talked about a long tab in class, which I may eventually try.

 

I'm pretty excited about these two ideas...and going back to some foundation work, especially here at home.

 

Thanks so much!

 

Still welcoming any other ideas. I know we are all looking to add things to our "bag of tricks."

[ChantalB]

How about some short restrained recalls on a longer lead with you holding the leash at the end sohe knows he's attached (and hopefully more confident) build that up so the Leah's is dragging, from there shorten the leash till it s a tab then remove it completely. With this you are building the confidence to work without a leash and the drive to chase you. If that does work, progress through the same thing but through jump standards. Then the bar super low on the ground.. etc etc (although I would only be using a tab when the bar comes into okay for safety).

 

Check out the tug it! May be perfect foryoursituation http://www.nosetouch.com/

[alligande]

It was late when I was typing last night... If you want to work with the bowl concept it is important to work away from agility equipment when you start out. The idea is that any mistakes you make do not transfer.

 

My suggestion would be to work in building value for chasing to the bowl (or any other container/plate) and have that enthuasim before moving on.

 

As we progressed I used traffic cones for Rievaulx to go through, then I introduced the jump standards and finally jumping.

 

I tried all sorts ways to get Brody to engage with toys and I decided that was going to be a longer battle than attempting to enjoy agility together. Brody did like toys on his terms.. They were for him to play with, if I threw a ball as a reward he would stop and look at me, but he would play fetch.... His nick name was Dr Sheldon Cooper, and like with the character there were many things we just did his way it was easier.....

[beachdogz]

Wanted to update this...

 

Went to dog class this afternoon with the idea of using a "bait bag" and trying to get at least some animation and focus. I was pretty disappointed; he ran to the bag, but not enthusiastically. And...the bag on the floor encouraged more sniffing.

 

Next turn I did on lead.

 

While waiting again, I was mentioning that I really would have liked to have used a ball, but this dog does not play ball. He will chase the other dogs when the ball is thrown, however, when I try to play ball with him alone, he does not respond. So right before my next turn up, I pulled out a ball from my bag. I was mildly surprised that he looked interested. Bounced it a few times, and he looked even more excited. So when my turn came around, I thought "why not?" Bounced that ball and sent him and he LEAPED over the jumps, ran and grabbed the ball, and came flying back to me, spit it out at my feet, and looked for a treat!! He was totally excited! You could have knocked me over with a feather...I was blown away. NEVER did I expect THIS dog to do that! (*sigh* and that's why I love dog training!)

 

So I'm gonna try to work this into practices; getting away from structured "runs" and just doing this fun stuff with the ball. I can hardly wait till next practice to see if he reacts the same way!!

[gcv-border]

Yay for Rusty! It is so exciting when you or your dog makes a major leap like that. Your idea of keeping it fun and less structured is definitely the way to go.

 

Re: the bait bag. Did you build value for it away from the agility venue? If not, he may have been confused as to what it really was if he was seeing it for the first time. No matter now if he is turned onto the ball, go with that.

 

Good work,

Jovi