Opinions please

[gcv-border]

A (minor) incident occurred this weekend at the agility trial. I was immediately ticked off, but am wondering if I should look at this from another viewpoint. So please let me know what you think.

 

A friend of mine runs a Pom in 8" Preferred (AKC). She is a very sweet lady and tries to do all the right things and is not going to push the envelope. She likes agility, and her little dog, Angus, has come to really enjoy it. She has worked her way up in levels - and that is where the confusion starts.

 

Because she is not serious about competition, she has not precisely tracked her progress. To the best of her knowledge, at the time of entry, she was in Open Std and Open JWW. She tried to track her dog's info on the AKC website, but couldn't figure out how to work the links.

 

So, she runs her dog on Friday, and I think she got one Q. She went home that night and finally managed to print out her dog's progress from the AKC website, because she wanted to know if she should move up. The next morning, she showed me the printout, and she really should have entered her dog in Excellent as he had already achieved the 3 Qs in both classes of Open. She was going to run her dog in Open that day (since that was what he was entered in) and then the next trial she entered (she may go to 3 trials a year), she would enter him in Excellent. I told her to go talk to the trial secretary to make sure that I was reading the printout correctly. (I should have kept my mouth shut.)

 

When I come back to our crates (she crated next to mine), she left me a note that said the trial secretary said she was in Excellent, but that "it wasn't fair to the other competitors" for her to run her dog in Open that day. So she packed up and left for home.

 

For doG's sake, this is agility. It doesn't affect world peace or the price of gasoline. I think that she should have run. It was an honest mistake. My understanding is that in AKC one does NOT have to move up if one doesn't want to. Also, this is Preferred. My interpretation of her note was that the trial secretary indicated that by running her dog, she could be preventing other dogs from getting 'points'.

 

Anyway, if I had seen her before she packed up to leave, I would have tried to convince her to stay and run. I think the trial sec'y was wrong to tell her she wasn't being 'fair'.

 

So, what are your opinions? Am I off-base? What am I missing?

 

Jovi

[Sekah]

From the AKC Regulation PDF [https://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/REAGIL.pdf]:

 

Move-ups prior to a set of trials:

Dogs shall be moved up to a higher class at the request of the

owner, as a result of qualifying for an agility title, provided that

the request is made in writing to the Trial Secretary...

 

Excellent Agility Standard Class. Open to dogs that

have acquired the Open Agility title, and to dogs that have

acquired the Agility Excellent title but that have not acquired

a qualifying score towards their Master Agility Excellent title.

Excellent Jumpers With Weaves Class. Open to dogs

that have acquired the Open Agility Jumper title and to dogs

that have acquired the Excellent Agility Jumper title but have

not acquired a qualifying score towards their Master Excellent

Jumper title

 

It looks like she should have been able to compete if she hadn't earned any Qs in Masters Excellent class.

[Beach BCs]

I would make a complaint. I've earned my title on day one of a trial and moved up for the next day. Now, I did make the request on the day I earned the title. Don't know if that made the difference. But there was no issue. In fact, they were very happy to do it. Seems like the trial secretary was wrong.

[gcv-border]

I am sorry. I guess I didn't make myself clear.

 

My friend was not looking to move up for the next day(Saturday) of the trial after she had earned a Q on the Friday. (Yes, I know that you have to request a move-up by a certain time [usually late afternoon] on the day you earned a Q in order to run at the higher level the next day.)

 

She only wanted to run in the Open classes she had entered.

 

But on my advice, she talked to the trial secretary to make sure that she entered the correct classes for her next AKC trial - at which point the trial sec'y discouraged her from running her Open classes on Saurday because it wasn't 'fair' to the other competitors. WTF?

 

Jovi

[Root Beer]

If the rules allowed for her to run in Open, I would have said she should run in Open. She paid for it, and it really is none of the other competitor's business. I have kept dogs in lower levels to gain experience before moving up. In fact, Tessa is doing that this coming weekend - she's running in Level 1 Standard because I want her to get more teeter experience before trying the teeter again in competition, but I'd like to knock off a bit more of the green-ness in Standard. Because she didn't Q in Level 2 when we tried it before, the rules allow for us to run in Level 1. I am not in the least concerned about what the other competitors think. It's what my dog and I will benefit from the most, the rules allow for it, and it's my entry money. (But that's CPE, not AKC, and nobody is going to think anything except that I am being sensible and patient with my dog)

 

That said, maybe she felt pressure to scratch. Maybe she thought people would talk behind her back. Maybe she was upset by the whole thing and thought it better to go than run upset. Who knows?

 

In the same situation, I would have smiled at the trial secretary, said, "next time", and then gone out to run my dog, no apologies. But that's me. Sounds like this lady is more sensitive, and sometimes people just do take things like that more to heart.

[MaryP]

The only thing I can think is that she maybe had prviously moved her dog to Excellent and didn't realize it. I don't think (I'm no expert, though) that you can move your dog back down, once you've moved them up. The trial secretary may have seen that she had entered Excellent classes in the past, so she should have entered her dog in Excellent for that trial. I don't know if that is something that would be caught at the time of the entry, or not. But, I'm thinking probably not, as it is really the exhibitor's responsibility to make sure their trial entry is correct.

 

ETA: From the AKC website, it says, "Once a qualifying score is earned in Excellent A, the team may no longer enter the Open class."

 

So, again, maybe that is what happened to your friend. Maybe, if she didn't keep track of what class she was supposed to be in, she had entered her dog in Open when she should have entered in Excellent.

[gcv-border]

Tx for the input.

 

Root Beer - Yes, she is a very nice woman and doesn't want to rock the boat and just wants to follow the rules. She may have been upset, but I don't know since I only got the note, and was not able to speak to her. When I next see her (@ Wednesday's agility class), I don't want to make her feel any worse for her incorrect (but allowable) entry so I will probably just commiserate with her and not go off about the trial sec'y should have kept her opinions to herself. If it had been me, I would have run too, so as not to waste the entry fee.

 

Mary - She has only been entering Open and did not realize that she already had 3 Open Qs, hence the Open entries at this trial.

 

Usually, I let stuff like this just roll off my back, but I felt that the trial sec'y really should not have told her it was 'unfair' to run her dog in the Open class. That may have been her personal interpretation of the situation, but as trial sec'y, she should have just stuck with the facts. IMO.

 

Jovi

[MaryP]

 

Mary - She has only been entering Open and did not realize that she already had 3 Open Qs, hence the Open entries at this trial.

 

 

Well, if that's the case, then the trial secretary had no right to make your friend feel like she was being unfair by keeping her dog in Open. That is the handler's decision.

[juliepoudrier]

Usually, I let stuff like this just roll off my back, but I felt that the trial sec'y really should not have told her it was 'unfair' to run her dog in the Open class. That may have been her personal interpretation of the situation, but as trial sec'y, she should have just stuck with the facts. IMO.

FWIW, I think this may be a pervasive attitude in AKC performance events. I know on the one herding list I'm on that is populated by a large number of AKC trial people, there have many discussions about people who have gotten a herding champion on their dog(s) and how they should not continue to run that dog (although there's no master's class or any higher level they can run in) because it's unfair to the dogs coming up to have to compete against dogs who have already got the HC (or whatever the abbreviation is).

 

I think the whole fairness argument is silly. If one's dog is good, well trained, whatever, it will be able to beat these dogs who have succeeded before them. I actually asked the question once about whether the title was important in making breeding decisions because of such a long, drawn-out discussion about the fairness of non-HCs having to compete against HCs. The context of the question being if the participants in the discussion knew a good working dog when they saw one--which many of them claimed--then why would the title matter so much, which in turn would make the whole "fairness" issue a non-issue, because the good dogs would be bred from, even if they never got that coveted HC. The silence was deafening.

 

I think the fairness thing just sort of comes part and parcel with a title-driven mindset.

 

J.

[Carson Crazies]

Or why not have her run her dog (whatever equivalent of) non-compete? So that she at least gets her runs in? Or do they do that? I have no idea.

 

I am having trouble wrapping my head around the whole "unfair" idea.

[rushdoggie]

What a snotty thing for the trial secretary to say...who cares? I'm sorry your friend had to deal with her...she should have stayed and run her dog, imo.

[PSmitty]

Or why not have her run her dog (whatever equivalent of) non-compete? So that she at least gets her runs in? Or do they do that? I have no idea.

 

I am having trouble wrapping my head around the whole "unfair" idea.

 

Yep, that's the whole thing. If she had just stayed for that day and ran in Open, it wouldn't have counted for anything. (neither had the previous day since she was entered wrong) So, why not? She paid for it...It would have been just like an expensive training session. I don't think the Trial Secretary had any business telling her not to run.

[Beach BCs]

You don't have to move up. You can stay in Novice or Open forever if you want to. I would still make a complaint.

[gcv-border]

You guys seem to be on the same page I am with regard to the fact that if she ran her dog in Open, it was not unfair to the other competitors. In fact, it is allowed by the rules. I just wasn't sure if other competitors would believe it was unfair if she didn't move her dog up - if they were even to know about it.

 

Since this is a she said/she said situation, it is probably not worth pursuing it further. Since I wasn't there to hear the conversation between the trial sec'y and my friend, she may have interpreted what was said as worse than actually was. (that's just the type of person she is) Regardless, I felt bad that she felt that she would be unfair to others if she ran her dog.

 

Jovi

[mum24dog]

Have I got this right?

 

In AKC you can gain the necessary Qs at Open but are not obliged to move up to the next level which is Excellent?

 

You can continue to enter either or both of the levels until you get a Q score at Excellent then you must compete in Excellent.

 

If so it seems similar, but not exactly the same as our points system up to Grade 4 here in the UK. If you win an agility class with a clear round you must move up. If you collect points from clear top 10 places then when you have the required number of points you may move up or not - your choice. You can remain racking up points at the lower level for the rest of your dog's career as long as it doesn't get a win, but once you have chosen to move up on points you can never go back.

 

As a Show Secretary it is my job to know the rules, which are there to ensure fairness to all. Sometimes they can be bent or broken but this should never happen if it will be likely to prejudice the interests of anyone else who has paid their money expecting a fair competition under the rules as they stand. If a rule is broken and someone complains to the KC the show organisers are liable to a fine or worse here.

 

(Is there a Not for Competition option in AKC agility? There isn't here, mainly because there isn't the capacity to allow them.)

 

If the OP's friend had made a mistake but was still within the rules then the Sec seems to have made an error. It's a thankless job at the best of times and those who do it are always going to face decisions that are going to upset someone. We're all human and sometimes we make errors on the spur of the moment. None of us knows exactly what was said in this case and I know perfectly well that I can patiently explain at length to a competitor the reasons for a decision and for that competitor then to tell others that I have said something completely different. Unless I hear a conversation I'm reluctant to comment.

 

I guess the OP's friend has learned a valuable lesson here - keep better track of her results.

[mum24dog]

You guys seem to be on the same page I am with regard to the fact that if she ran her dog in Open, it was not unfair to the other competitors. In fact, it is allowed by the rules. I just wasn't sure if other competitors would believe it was unfair if she didn't move her dog up - if they were even to know about it.

 

I can see that it might be perceived by some that the rule could be unfair in terms of placings but it wouldn't prevent anyone from Qing would it? Maybe the high entry fees make people more likely to be desperate to have something to show for them.

 

 

Since this is a she said/she said situation, it is probably not worth pursuing it further. Since I wasn't there to hear the conversation between the trial sec'y and my friend, she may have interpreted what was said as worse than actually was. (that's just the type of person she is) Regardless, I felt bad that she felt that she would be unfair to others if she ran her dog.

 

Jovi

 

You overtook what I said because of my slow typing. :)/>

 

Your friend needs to develop a thicker skin. There are always jealous and mean minded people around who will bitch about the slightest thing.

[Root Beer]

You guys seem to be on the same page I am with regard to the fact that if she ran her dog in Open, it was not unfair to the other competitors. In fact, it is allowed by the rules. I just wasn't sure if other competitors would believe it was unfair if she didn't move her dog up - if they were even to know about it.

 

I guess when it comes down to it, "fairness" is in the eye of the beholder.

 

I tend to go with "if the rules allow for it, then it's fair". But there are those who strongly hold (even beyond dog sports) that if everything is not exactly the same for everyone at all times, then it's "not fair". The thing is, there is no way to make everything the same for everyone all the time - some dogs have more natural talent than others, some are faster, some have inherent limitations, some handlers are better trainers, etc., so "fair" by that definition doesn't really exist in dog sports. So, really "fair" only works if it is adherence to the rules as they are written.

 

Probably some of the other competitors, like the trial secretary, would have said it was "not fair". Probably a good many would have recognized that the rules allow for it and not have cared. Especially since it was an error on her part. But even if it wasn't - if she entered Open, instead, because she felt that she or her dog are not ready for Excellent, well - the rules allow it, so technically it is fair.

[MrRipley]

She should have stayed and run, and the trial sec was wrong. I've only entered a handful of AKC trials ever, and each time I pretty much find myself in some kind of odd, unnecessary, awkward moment of drama. It's almost like a running joke for me but it's one of the things that has really turned me off from AKC trials. Anyway, the bottom line is that your friend was put in an unfortunate situation, but she should have stayed and run.

[mum24dog]

the rules allow it, so technically it is fair.

 

And if you don't like the rules, go elsewhere, or push for them to be changed.

 

When you enter a competition you accept the rules as they are.

[SS Cressa]

How populated is the preferred 8in class?

 

What the trial sec said, to me, just doesn't make sense. I know I left my dog is open a little longer since I didn't think he was ready for EXC. It doesn't matter if the dog has earn a title. It is more if the dog is ready for the next level.

 

I more wonder if something got lost in translation during their conversation.

 

 

Just curious does points matter in Open? I normally focus on the Q's and figure the points should come.

[wildo]

Your friend needs to develop a thicker skin. There are always jealous and mean minded people around who will bitch about the slightest thing.

 

I agree with this. The oddest part of the story is not that the trial secretary made a mistake in the rule interpretation (I'm sure it happens!) but that the friend wrote a note and disappeared. Why wouldn't the friend come back and discuss with the OP? Now that I find strange.

 

I guess the OP's friend has learned a valuable lesson here - keep better track of her results.

 

I am currently only competing at CPE Level 2 (actually hoping to clear out level 2 this weekend) and I've already found it increasingly difficult to keep track of runs and Qs. Just downloaded Agility Record Book which is pretty darn nice!

[MrRipley]

I just keep a basic Excel spreadsheet to keep track of my USDAA titles. I have each event listed horizontally across the top and then each time we Q, I enter the date underneath. I am signed up for the service on the website where I can see all our results, but it usually takes them several weeks to update the records. When I get home from a trial, I record our results on our spreadsheet. That way, I am ready to celebrate when we get a new title

[gcv-border]

Yes, I think that this minor incident could have been avoided if my friend had been keeping track of her progress, but she only plays at agility - going to only 3 or 4 trials a year. Her dog is awesome so, if she remembers the course, her dog will Q - which is why she can move up to Excellent after only minimal trialing. (She had surgery last year, but still wanted her dog to run agility while she recuperated because he gets so excited to do it. She asked me to run him in class, and I had a BLAST! Finally, a dog that I can run through a whole course without mistakes. :D He is very much a velcro dog, always checking in with the handler, and he knows his obstacle performance very well. It is so different from my running-like-demons-are-chasing-him BC, but that is another topic...)

 

Wildo - is the Agility Record Book an app or something I can put on my computer (I don't have an iPad or tablet) An Excel spreadsheep is a good idea.

 

It does take a bit of a thick skin to compete (at anything) since people are always complaining about something. This past weekend, the talk was of the suspect footing. I didn't think it was so bad, but who knows? It may or may not have cost me a Q in JWW since my dog dropped a bar, and he never usually drops bars unless I speak to him while he is in mid-air. On the other hand, he may have been trying so hard that he misjudged the timing on a jump. I am not going to lose any sleep over it.

 

BTW, to change the topic a bit, what happens if the judge and handler collide? In one run, out of the corner of my eye I saw one judge backpedal furiously to get out of my way. On another run, I ended up layering the judge while my dog was weaving - another 2 feet closer, and we may have collided. In both instances, I believe that neither judge was ready for me to handle at such a distance (I need distance in order try and keep up) since everyone else in the class was taking a different path. Would there be a re-run? Just curious.

 

Jovi

[Carson Crazies]

I think you should get extra credit if you take out the judge.

 

In fact, I've never understood why you don't get extra points for knocking down bars, but whatever.

[gcv-border]

I think you should get extra credit if you take out the judge.

 

 

Hadn't thought of that, but ..

 

Jovi